Olly didn't deserve that

[Winter's Cold]

He did deserve his execution. Just as much as Theon would if Jon ever gets ahold of him.

[Cas Stark]

1 hour ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

What did they actually show us up until this point? 

Ehm.  The wildlings took Jon prisoner and were going to kill him.  The Thenns showed up with somebody's arm and ate it.  Then there was that whole Mance's army of wildlings thing..and then the wildlings attacking the wall and Mole town, and that is only off the top of my head...so I'm not sure why or how Olly somehow elevates the concept of wildlings raiding and killing Westerosi and being you know, wild and shit, and eating people's arms and not being liked by the NW.  

It's funny, it feels to me like these things are never argue consistently.  One minute we don't need anything at all in the show, not stated, shown or implied but we're supposed to fill in the blanks, and if we don't, then we're nitpickers, the next minute, the show has multiple segments and story lines about something, but it's not enough and needs a special character to convey a message that has been conveyed in dialogue, action and plot for 5 years...it's almost as if some of the arguments are grounded in nothing more than being positive about the show no mater what the issue is.  

[Vastet]

You're overstating the cannibalism. Most of the wildlings are disgusted at the thought.

[kissdbyfire]

1 minute ago, Vastet said:

You're overstating the cannibalism. Most of the wildlings are disgusted at the thought.

But the show made it a point of turning the Thenns, who are the closest to westerosi, into cannibals exactly to drive home the point of how wild and dangerous they were. Again, making the whole ChekhOlly thing unnecessary and boring and ridiculous in its clumsy and obvious ham-fistedness. 

[Darkstream]

7 minutes ago, Vastet said:

You're overstating the cannibalism. Most of the wildlings are disgusted at the thought.

Actually it was D&D that overstated it. 

[Vastet]

"But the show made it a point of turning the Thenns, who are the closest to westerosi, into cannibals exactly to drive home the point of how wild and dangerous they were. Again, making the whole ChekhOlly thing unnecessary and boring and ridiculous in its clumsy and obvious ham-fistedness. "

I disagree. I think that first and foremost it shows the wildlings are diverse.

"Actually it was D&D that overstated it. "

No they didn't. Unless I'm forgetting something, we've seen exactly one instance of cannibalism. That's not an overstatement, that's validating all the talk of cannibalism by showing it isn't propaganda.

[bemused]

In the books we hear of reputed cannibalism among some of the wildlings, (but certainly not the Thenns).. and reputed cannibalism among the Skagosi.. (may be true or may have been true in the past) .. Then we're led to strongly suspect Manderly's pies (an act of revenge, not habitual) and the one we know is true in the case of the starving southron men in Stannis' army.( caught in the act, but I suppose the real canon instance wouldn't be "savage" enough ) .. Any of the book instances could have been done, though none would be necessary to move the plot forward. Or we could have heard the rumours, like the book characters do, to establish diversity.

We could even have had Olly's unnecessary story without having his parents eaten, without seeing an arm on a spit.. still stupid, but less sensational.

[Cas Stark]

1 hour ago, Vastet said:

You're overstating the cannibalism. Most of the wildlings are disgusted at the thought.

You missed the point, which was that the show had ample information/material/scenes/dialogue about the wildlings  and why they are hated in Westeros without the need for Olly, his village, his dagger stares or his treason.

[thehandwipes]

D&D have been all over the map on the wildlings, same as everything else.  As early as season 1 Benjen and Tyrion had alreadt established the the wildlings were no different from you or I, just a little bit rougher and unlucky to be on the wrong side of the wall.  Its as if they knew what was going to happen and didn't think it was important that Jon (or the audience) figure it out for himself.  If they hadn't felt the need to insert a RomCom into the middle of seasons 2 and 3, or had the courage to Jon's actual ADWD storyline there wouldn't have been any need to insert a bobblehead masquerading as a human being or clichéd savages masquerading as Thenns.

[Darkstream]

1 hour ago, Vastet said:

"Actually it was D&D that overstated it. "

No they didn't. Unless I'm forgetting something, we've seen exactly one instance of cannibalism. That's not an overstatement, that's validating all the talk of cannibalism by showing it isn't propaganda.

Well, it's my view that showing the Wildlings as cannibals by first having a scene with a graphic visual of the Thenn's roasting a human arm for dinner, followed by a scene of them savagely murdering an entire villiage of women, childern, and  farmers, (reasons?) only to leave one single child alive in order  to inform him that they are going to eat his dead parents is quite the overstatement. 

This is amplified more in contrast to how the show has portrayed the threat of the Others. We are supposed to come to the realization that the real threat to the kingdom is the Others, not the "blood thirsty" Wildlings. The one time the show actually remembered that the Others are a threat, (ie: Hardhome) everybody is infected with a case of plot induced amnisia the very next episode. Not one person has even mentioned a thing about what happend because Olly wasn't there. But of course Hard home was only about having a iconic battle scene, and nothing to do with telling a coherent or interesting story. 

[bemused]

2 minutes ago, thehandwipes said:

D&D have been all over the map on the wildlings, same as everything else.  As early as season 1 Benjen and Tyrion had alreadt established the the wildlings were no different from you or I, just a little bit rougher and unlucky to be on the wrong side of the wall.  Its as if they knew what was going to happen and didn't think it was important that Jon (or the audience) figure it out for himself.  If they hadn't felt the need to insert a RomCom into the middle of seasons 2 and 3, or had the courage to Jon's actual ADWD storyline there wouldn't have been any need to insert a bobblehead masquerading as a human being or clichéd savages masquerading as Thenns.

Bravo.

And bravo to Darkstream, too.

[Darkstream]

9 minutes ago, bemused said:

Bravo.

And bravo to Darkstream, too.

Right back at you.

16 minutes ago, thehandwipes said:

D&D have been all over the map on the wildlings, same as everything else.  As early as season 1 Benjen and Tyrion had alreadt established the the wildlings were no different from you or I, just a little bit rougher and unlucky to be on the wrong side of the wall.  Its as if they knew what was going to happen and didn't think it was important that Jon (or the audience) figure it out for himself.  If they hadn't felt the need to insert a RomCom into the middle of seasons 2 and 3, or had the courage to Jon's actual ADWD storyline there wouldn't have been any need to insert a bobblehead masquerading as a human being or clichéd savages masquerading as Thenns.

[Vastet]

"Well, it's my view that showing the Wildlings as cannibals by first having a scene with a graphic visual of the Thenn's roasting a human arm for dinner, followed by a scene of them savagely murdering an entire villiage of women, childern, and  farmers, (reasons?) only to leave one single child alive in order  to inform him that they are going to eat his dead parents is quite the overstatement."

Oh please you're completely ignoring the purpose behind letting Olly go in the first place. The wildlings wanted the NW to know they were ravaging the countryside so they'd march out in force and could be ambushed. The whole assault was purely for the express purpose of reducing the defenders of Castle Black.

[Darkstream]

9 minutes ago, Vastet said:

"Well, it's my view that showing the Wildlings as cannibals by first having a scene with a graphic visual of the Thenn's roasting a human arm for dinner, followed by a scene of them savagely murdering an entire villiage of women, childern, and  farmers, (reasons?) only to leave one single child alive in order  to inform him that they are going to eat his dead parents is quite the overstatement."

Oh please you're completely ignoring the purpose behind letting Olly go in the first place. The wildlings wanted the NW to know they were ravaging the countryside so they'd march out in force and could be ambushed. The whole assault was purely for the express purpose of reducing the defenders of Castle Black.

Right, because the news of an entire villiage being wiped out by Wildlings wouldn't reach the Watch. Certainly not faster than a small child, all by himself trekking across the harsh northern landscape. 

Of course that tactic really paned out as the wildlings imediately forgot their own plan and attacked castle Black. 

[Vastet]

First off, if the town was close enough for Nw members to sneak out for some sex and get back by morning, it is also close enough for a kid to travel the distance.

Secondly, how else is the NW going to know anyway? I haven't seen any crystal balls or psychics or telepaths. Have you?

Finally, they forgot nothing. The NW didn't take the bait, and Mance lit the fire. None of the wildlings South of the wall had any choice as to the timing of the attack.

[Darkstream]

26 minutes ago, Vastet said:

First off, if the town was close enough for Nw members to sneak out for some sex and get back by morning, it is also close enough for a kid to travel the distance.

Secondly, how else is the NW going to know anyway? I haven't seen any crystal balls or psychics or telepaths. Have you?

Finally, they forgot nothing. The NW didn't take the bait, and Mance lit the fire. None of the wildlings South of the wall had any choice as to the timing of the attack.

Well no, olly's farming villiage wasn't moles town. And sorry, comparing the chances of a grown man on a horse, who is a member of a order dedicated to protecting the realms of man, to a small child on foot with no supplies doesn't really cut it for me. 

I would imagine word from a messenger on horseback would suffice. 

Allright, but it was a dumb plan anyway. Nothing like using the element of supprise, no, let them know your there so they can mount a prepared assault, in their own lands that they know way better than a bunch of Wildlings that have never been across the wall. 

And wasn't that the plan, wait for the fire and attack. So they forgot about Mance's original plan, came up with this other plan , had it fail, then resorted back to the original plan. These Wildlings sure are mindless savages. 
 

[Vastet]

Yes it was Molestown. Gillie was sent there. Just how bad is your memory anyway?

A kid who grew up in the wild under constant threat of raids who would know where Castle Black is from the time he could walk beggars your belief? You must have really hated Bran's journey North. A trip that makes Olly's journey seem no more than a walk in the park.

What messenger on horseback? Olly, Gillie, and the baby were the only survivors. So you expect the dead to rise on their own, steal horses from the wildlings, and beat Olly to the wall.

Dumb plan, maybe. So now the wildlings must be strategic geniuses, capable of outwitting a trained military force, who would never come up with a stupid plan.

Ok so the wildlings were supposed to wait for Mance and try absolutely nothing to reduce the forces at Castle Black. Which would have accomplished what? The plan they made may not have been brilliant, but if it had worked the Castle would have fallen easily. If it didn't work, nothing was lost. They gained supplies and removed a potential threat from their flank. As bad plans go, this one was fairly effective win or lose. Which means it's not all that bad of a plan.

You're so eager to make the show look stupid that you aren't thinking. Which does not result in the show looking stupid.

[JonSnow4President]

38 minutes ago, Vastet said:

Yes it was Molestown. Gillie was sent there. Just how bad is your memory anyway?

A kid who grew up in the wild under constant threat of raids who would know where Castle Black is from the time he could walk beggars your belief? You must have really hated Bran's journey North. A trip that makes Olly's journey seem no more than a walk in the park.

What messenger on horseback? Olly, Gillie, and the baby were the only survivors. So you expect the dead to rise on their own, steal horses from the wildlings, and beat Olly to the wall.

Dumb plan, maybe. So now the wildlings must be strategic geniuses, capable of outwitting a trained military force, who would never come up with a stupid plan.

Ok so the wildlings were supposed to wait for Mance and try absolutely nothing to reduce the forces at Castle Black. Which would have accomplished what? The plan they made may not have been brilliant, but if it had worked the Castle would have fallen easily. If it didn't work, nothing was lost. They gained supplies and removed a potential threat from their flank. As bad plans go, this one was fairly effective win or lose. Which means it's not all that bad of a plan.

You're so eager to make the show look stupid that you aren't thinking. Which does not result in the show looking stupid.

Mole's town was raided.  So was Olly's hamlet.  Olly is not from Moletown, so I would suggest you stop with insulting another's memory.

And I feel like you're being deliberately obtuse.  A surprise attack on the south of Castle Black would have been devastating, especially if timed in conjunction with Mance's assault on the wall.  That is entirely reasonable to expect them to try to "reduce the forces at Castle Black." Giving them ample warning is not.

[Vastet]

Prove it wasn't Molestown.

I feel the same about you. There was no surprise to be had. The wildlings knew, or at least suspected, that Snow got back. The gig was up.

[Darkstream]

1 hour ago, Vastet said:

 

 

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Yes it was Molestown. Gillie was sent there. Just how bad is your memory anyway?

 

What does where Gillie went have any thing to do with the farming villiage that the Wildlings eradicated? If it was the same place, they would have all been dead when Gillie got there, wouldn't they? 

Unfortunately, my memory isn't bad enough to forget watching this show. 

 

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A kid who grew up in the wild under constant threat of raids who would know where Castle Black is from the time he could walk beggars your belief? You must have really hated Bran's journey North. A trip that makes Olly's journey seem no more than a walk in the park.

 

Why would he know where Castle Black was? Odds are he's never left the villiage boundaries his entire life. The show portrayed it as some small, peacfull villiage, where everyone's joking about potatoes for supper. But the point is not that he couldn't make it to Castle Black, but that if that's what your war strategy relies on, then it's a stoopid plan. 

Actually, it was Bran, Summer (those of you that only watch the show might not know, but that's Bran's direwolf), Hodor, Meera, and Jojen. 

 

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What messenger on horseback? Olly, Gillie, and the baby were the only survivors. So you expect the dead to rise on their own, steal horses from the wildlings, and beat Olly to the wall.

 

What are you even talking about, now Gillie is from Olly's village too, not Crasters? 

 

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Dumb plan, maybe. So now the wildlings must be strategic geniuses, capable of outwitting a trained military force, who would never come up with a stupid plan.

Ok so the wildlings were supposed to wait for Mance and try absolutely nothing to reduce the forces at Castle Black. Which would have accomplished what? The plan they made may not have been brilliant, but if it had worked the Castle would have fallen easily. If it didn't work, nothing was lost. They gained supplies and removed a potential threat from their flank. As bad plans go, this one was fairly effective win or lose. Which means it's not all that bad of a plan.

Yes, they were supposed to wait and do nothing, that was the friggin plan!! Mance was to mount an attack on the north side of the wall to cause a distraction, and the Wildlings were supposed  Surprise attack from the south when Mance gave the signal. The Wildlings brilliant plan to draw the watch out deliberately sabatoged their own plan. 

And what threat would they eliminated? A small farming comunity.

You're so eager to make the show look stupid good that you aren't thinking. Which does not result in the show looking stupid. Not that it needs any help doing that.