Vastet Posted May 14, 2016 Share Posted May 14, 2016 INCBlackbird, we have to examine the word 'deserve' here. Some definitions. ----- To be worthy of Do something or have or show qualities worthy of (a reaction which rewards or punishes as appropriate) to merit, qualify for, or have a claim to (reward, punishment, aid, etc.) because of actions, qualities, or circumstances to be worthy of, qualified for, or have a claim to reward, punishment, etc ----- Now we examine the circumstances. Olly did not deserve to lose his family. To our knowledge, his family did not deserve to die. Olly deserves justice. However, said justice has mostly been served. Tormund was the only wildling in the Southern front to survive the attack. All the others are dead. It is true that Tormund should be punished, but that is not feasible. Tormund is absolutely necessary for the goal of bringing wildlings South of the Wall to prevent their numbers from swelling the ranks of the dead, and for enlisting the wildlings against the dead. The stakes are too high for justice. In this scenario, granting justice may very well mean everyone dies. And then what's the point? Young as Olly might be, he has now spent close to a year in the Night's Watch. He knows the words. He knows the law. He chose to break it. He chose to personally stab the Lord Commander in the heart, against all he has been taught. He chose to do this with the greatest threat the realm has seen in thousands of years at the door. If he had just told Jon about his Uncle and then stayed in the background, he might have been able to claim he thought he was following a true order based on Benjen actually being found. He did not. He committed himself to treason. He doesn't even regret his actions, he only regrets that he failed. Which means he's liable to try again. So we must examine our options. He can't be pardoned, he's an unrepentant murderer and traitor who is most definitely aware of the consequences of his actions. He can't be imprisoned, because supplies are already short and the Watch can't afford to feed people who can't contribute. If he is passed on to the King or Bolton, due to his target he will not only be pardoned but be trained as an enemy of Jon. This will have the result of people throughout Westeros coming to the conclusion that it's ok to kill a Lord Commander. That treason has been sanctioned by the crown. The only option is to execute him. He won't understand these complicated politics, but he does understand the law and its consequences. He believes he'll get away with it because the Night's Watch officers are with him, and if they succeed he'll have their protection. After considering all the facts, Olly deserves to die. There is no alternative course of action. Westeros is not a land that has seen peace and relative safety for so long it can afford to examine its moral code. If it had, women would have more equality. Nobility would be no more. There would not be a monarchy, or at least the monarchy would have no power. Children would remain children, instead of being considered adults between 12 and 15 years old. In Western nations on Earth in the 21st century, children are executed for less. It is rare, and generally speaking only in certain places. But it still happens. I personally am against it. I'm against execution under almost any circumstance. Execution is not an effective deterrent, and too many innocent people pay for crimes they did not commit. But in a time of war, when allies are of paramount importance and letting enemies live means losing everything, the survival of humanity trumps any justice or morality. Olly HAD to die. He deserved to die. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Ghost of Someone Posted May 14, 2016 Share Posted May 14, 2016 On the show, there was no justifiable cause for the Night's Watch to do what they did, not after Hardhome and the account of it and thorne opened the gate for them afterward. If he thought the order from Jon to open the gate was unlawful, than he should not have opened it. As for Olly, he was a messed up little man but a man under the terms of the Night's watch, he was a man. The real villain up there was Thorne, who utterly refused to put aside any personal feelings towards Jon for the Watch itself. He seized upon an opportunity, found a few flunkies and the twisted kid (Olly) and murdered his lord Commander. He was proud of it. The 4 traitors that wee hung, deserved it. I am just surprised they did not hang more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruhail Posted May 14, 2016 Share Posted May 14, 2016 The jar jar binks of the watch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Lannister Posted May 14, 2016 Share Posted May 14, 2016 Olly was old enough to join the Night's Watch. He was old enough to make the choice betray it. He was old enough to put a dagger into his Lord Commander's heart. He's old enough to accept the consequences. Were the circumstances leading up to Olly acting as he did tragic? Definitely? Does that justify his actions? No. He basically came what he claimed to hate, a murderer. No matter how much he despised Jon's actions, he didn't HAVE to actively aide Throne, and definitely didn't have to stare Jon in the eyes before dealing the death blow. He knew what he was doing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Doe Posted May 15, 2016 Share Posted May 15, 2016 If you're old enough to backstab your lord commander you're old enough to be hanged for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darryk Posted May 15, 2016 Share Posted May 15, 2016 The law is the law. Obviously the character didn't deserve to be hated as much by the internets though, just a kid who fell in with the wrong crowd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tianzi Posted May 15, 2016 Share Posted May 15, 2016 In my humble opinion Olly as a creation deserves to be forgotten. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Channel4s-JonSnow Posted May 15, 2016 Share Posted May 15, 2016 I have no problem with Olly. There needed to be a way to show WHY the wildlings were hated, and showing it first hand makes sense. Hispresence was over done and heavy handed but was a good choice overall Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonSnow4President Posted May 15, 2016 Share Posted May 15, 2016 15 minutes ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said: I have no problem with Olly. There needed to be a way to show WHY the wildlings were hated, and showing it first hand makes sense. Hispresence was over done and heavy handed but was a good choice overall Well, if they didn't make Jon Snow forget how to argue anytime Ygritte brought up a point, or modified the Jon execution dilemma scene to include the raiding, they don't need Olly. So cut all the time showing Olly reactions, add a few more seconds to each Jon/Ygritte scene for the modified dialogue, and voila, same point, but more efficient. But no, we have to make sure Jon "knows nothing" Snow can't successfully argue with Ygritte. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Channel4s-JonSnow Posted May 15, 2016 Share Posted May 15, 2016 5 minutes ago, JonSnow4President said: Well, if they didn't make Jon Snow forget how to argue anytime Ygritte brought up a point, or modified the Jon execution dilemma scene to include the raiding, they don't need Olly. So cut all the time showing Olly reactions, add a few more seconds to each Jon/Ygritte scene for the modified dialogue, and voila, same point, but more efficient. But no, we have to make sure Jon "knows nothing" Snow can't successfully argue with Ygritte. Well no, because Olly is someone who you've SEEN their lives being wrecked by the Wildlings. Thats much more effective than some line of dialogue here and there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted May 15, 2016 Share Posted May 15, 2016 9 minutes ago, JonSnow4President said: Well, if they didn't make Jon Snow forget how to argue anytime Ygritte brought up a point, or modified the Jon execution dilemma scene to include the raiding, they don't need Olly. So cut all the time showing Olly reactions, add a few more seconds to each Jon/Ygritte scene for the modified dialogue, and voila, same point, but more efficient. But no, we have to make sure Jon "knows nothing" Snow can't successfully argue with Ygritte. Yeah, I agree. Olly was one of the worst original creations, and his whole staring and shit throughout the whole season last year was not only annoying as hell but the clumsiest foreshadowings in the history of clumsy foreshadowings. And if anyone is to blame for people rejoicing in the death of a teenager, it's the showrunners who came up with the whole storyline. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cas Stark Posted May 15, 2016 Share Posted May 15, 2016 44 minutes ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said: I have no problem with Olly. There needed to be a way to show WHY the wildlings were hated, and showing it first hand makes sense. Hispresence was over done and heavy handed but was a good choice overall LMAO. Seriously? The show has been talking about the wildlings since Season 1. It has been showing us wildlings since season 1. It even showed us wildling cannibals, so if somebody needed Olly to "get" the fact that the wildlings are hated in Westeros and they raid and kill people...they shouldn't be watching. Olly was (1) a waste of time, (2) a walking cliche how many Olly reaction shots did we need? Olly became an international joke it was so obvious he was going to betray Jon. That's poor storytelling. In my opinoin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Channel4s-JonSnow Posted May 15, 2016 Share Posted May 15, 2016 24 minutes ago, Cas Stark said: LMAO. Seriously? The show has been talking about the wildlings since Season 1. It has been showing us wildlings since season 1. It even showed us wildling cannibals, so if somebody needed Olly to "get" the fact that the wildlings are hated in Westeros and they raid and kill people...they shouldn't be watching. Olly was (1) a waste of time, (2) a walking cliche how many Olly reaction shots did we need? Olly became an international joke it was so obvious he was going to betray Jon. That's poor storytelling. In my opinoin. Isnt it you lot that keep banging on about 'show not tell', well here is a perfect case for it. You can keep telling the viewer that people don't like the Wildlings but the best way to understand why is to show it. Especially when your whole season hangs on the NW making a decision based on that hatred. It's the same as someone the other day seemed to think that you didn't need Hard home because the viewer will understand how close the WW are if someone read out a letter! Now that is worth a lmao! Understanding get the differences between book and screen is important. As for Olly, well yes i didnt like the heavy handedness of it, but if there was one less scene of him looking miserable I think it would have been fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted May 15, 2016 Share Posted May 15, 2016 The whole execution of it was so godawful that it backfired, and in the whole world wanted nothing more than to see the kid die. Go, Wildlings! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cas Stark Posted May 15, 2016 Share Posted May 15, 2016 19 minutes ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said: Isnt it you lot that keep banging on about 'show not tell', well here is a perfect case for it. You can keep telling the viewer that people don't like the Wildlings but the best way to understand why is to show it. Especially when your whole season hangs on the NW making a decision based on that hatred. It's the same as someone the other day seemed to think that you didn't need Hard home because the viewer will understand how close the WW are if someone read out a letter! Now that is worth a lmao! Understanding get the differences between book and screen is important. As for Olly, well yes i didnt like the heavy handedness of it, but if there was one less scene of him looking miserable I think it would have been fine. I guess you missed my point. They already "showed" us in multiple past seasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkstream Posted May 15, 2016 Share Posted May 15, 2016 Yup, sure shows how much credit D&D give their audience in the intelligence department. It's funny how they have to relentlessly hammer home the most obvious shit ever, but at they same time utterly fail at actually informing the audience of anything to do with the actual story. The unsullied might like the show because of all the meaningless bells and whistles it has, but they really have no idea what this deep and meaning full story is really suppose to be about. Of course, D&D have no clue themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkstream Posted May 15, 2016 Share Posted May 15, 2016 9 minutes ago, Cas Stark said: I guess you missed my point. They already "showed" us in multiple past seasons. I don't think he missed the point, just in perpetual denial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruhail Posted May 15, 2016 Share Posted May 15, 2016 Olly is the perfect example of the writers not learning from their past mistakes. Talisa namely. Its the exact same pattern now that I think about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Channel4s-JonSnow Posted May 15, 2016 Share Posted May 15, 2016 44 minutes ago, Cas Stark said: I guess you missed my point. They already "showed" us in multiple past seasons. What did they actually show us up until this point? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkstream Posted May 15, 2016 Share Posted May 15, 2016 12 minutes ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said: What did they actually show us up until this point? A bunch of mis-concieved notions of what D&D think the Wildlings are. Another words D&D fan troll-fic. I guess countless references to them being rapists and reavers, showing them eating a human arm, and then savagely murdering an entire village isn't enough to convince the audience that they are bad guys. Nope, we need a shot of Olly every single episode to drive home that point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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