Summer not dead?

[Lord Lannister]

I guess we'll see Summer again with Stannis leading his army of bear cavalry against the White Walkers.

[mattnj81]

22 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said:

I guess we'll see Summer again with Stannis leading his army of bear cavalry against the White Walkers.

He will also have Syrio with him.

[the tower of albion]

Last I heard the Actor that plays Summer was offered a better gig on a new version of White Fang, and was being really pissy about his co workers - they were glad to let him go.

[Nymeria's pack]

1 minute ago, mattnj81 said:

He will also have Syrio with him.

And Shaggydog

[mattnj81]

4 minutes ago, Nymeria's pack said:

And Shaggydog

I'm betting Nymeria is the only wolf to survive all the way to the end, books and show.

[Forlong the Fat]

6 hours ago, mattnj81 said:

I know I'm being super optimistic and that D&D seem to have no regard for the importance of the dire wolves, but i noticed something upon rewatching the episode last night:

1. We don't actually see Summer die, and

2. More importantly, when the Night's King enters the cave, he walks right past the spot where Summer got swarmed. There was no dead wolf body that I could see. Is it possible we got faked out?

This is an interesting comment: "D&D have no regard for the importance of dire wolves." That suggests that GRRM does have regard for the importance of dire wolves?  But he killed Lady and banished Nymeria early in the first book.  Then he brutally killed Grey Wolf.  It's not as if killing dire wolves hasn't happened before.  Moreover, the killing of Lady was 100% senseless, and Grey Wolfe was simply slaughtered.

I don't get the reaction to the recent wolf deaths, and I don't expect Summer to come back any more than the wolves GRRM already killed. 

[dbunting]

45 minutes ago, SerJeremiahLouistark said:

Every wolf death in the books is symbolic.  The first direwolf death is a symbol of the Starks and Baratheons being killed. 

 

Lady's death was symbolic because it was really the first blow (they didn't know about Bran being pushed yet) from the Lannisters to the Starks and it was also symbolic because Ned chose to do it himself because the wolf is of the north and the sigil of house Stark.  It was also the beginning of the death of Sansa's childhood.

 

Greywind's was symbolic because he knows what's up before it happens and he actually takes out Freys before his demise.  

As for the show, Lady's was done right, and none since have been done right.  

 

36 minutes ago, mattnj81 said:

All true.

Both are true, and yet that means nothing. This is not the books, it is the show and they are different. Summer was being stabbed by a lot of them and there were hundreds more coming in, not to mention the NK and his buddies. The wolves were not built up in the show like they were in the books.

[mattnj81]

4 minutes ago, Forlong the Fat said:

This is an interesting comment: "D&D have no regard for the importance of dire wolves." That suggests that GRRM does have regard for the importance of dire wolves?  But he killed Lady and banished Nymeria early in the first book.  Then he brutally killed Grey Wolf.  It's not as if killing dire wolves hasn't happened before.  Moreover, the killing of Lady was 100% senseless, and Grey Wolfe was simply slaughtered.

I don't get the reaction to the recent wolf deaths, and I don't expect Summer to come back any more than the wolves GRRM already killed. 

I respectfully disagree. The relationships between the Starks and their wolves is not nearly as developed on the show as it is on the books. And when wolves do die, it has meaning/purpose, not simply shock value. @SerJeremiahLouistark had a good explanation earlier in this thread.

[SerJeremiahLouistark]

5 minutes ago, Forlong the Fat said:

This is an interesting comment: "D&D have no regard for the importance of dire wolves." That suggests that GRRM does have regard for the importance of dire wolves?  But he killed Lady and banished Nymeria early in the first book.  Then he brutally killed Grey Wolf.  It's not as if killing dire wolves hasn't happened before.  Moreover, the killing of Lady was 100% senseless, and Grey Wolfe was simply slaughtered.

I don't get the reaction to the recent wolf deaths, and I don't expect Summer to come back any more than the wolves GRRM already killed. 

The wolves deaths in the books all mean something though, the ones in the show don't, save Lady's.  

[mattnj81]

12 minutes ago, the tower of albion said:

Last I heard the Actor that plays Summer was offered a better gig on a new version of White Fang, and was being really pissy about his co workers - they were glad to let him go.

What a prima donna asshole.

[Forlong the Fat]

Just now, mattnj81 said:

I respectfully disagree. The relationships between the Starks and their wolves is not nearly as developed on the show as it is on the books. And when wolves do die, it has meaning/purpose, not simply shock value. @SerJeremiahLouistark had a good explanation earlier in this thread.

It's true that a book consisting of several thousand pages has more information in it than a TV show.

It's demonstrably not true that GRRM has treated the wolves any better than the show has.

[Nymeria's pack]

1 minute ago, Forlong the Fat said:

This is an interesting comment: "D&D have no regard for the importance of dire wolves." That suggests that GRRM does have regard for the importance of dire wolves?  But he killed Lady and banished Nymeria early in the first book.  Then he brutally killed Grey Wolf.  It's not as if killing dire wolves hasn't happened before.  Moreover, the killing of Lady was 100% senseless, and Grey Wolfe was simply slaughtered.

I don't get the reaction to the recent wolf deaths, and I don't expect Summer to come back any more than the wolves GRRM already killed. 

Grey Wind.

And yes, GRRM did kill the other direwolves but there are enormous differences in the way the direwolves are portrayed when alive. In the books the direwolves are very closely connected to the Stark children. Rarely is there a scene with a Stark youngster where the direwolf is not mentioned. Later when Arya and Sansa have lost their direwolves, Arya still has her connection to Nymeria and Sansa still thinks about Lady. Jon's connection to Ghost is also prominent.

In the show, whole episodes pass without sight of a direwolf and when they are there, well you could be forgiven for thinking Ghost was Sam's direwolf. There is no warging from anyone but Bran which is so different to the books. 

 

 

[mattnj81]

4 minutes ago, dbunting said:

 

Both are true, and yet that means nothing. This is not the books, it is the show and they are different. Summer was being stabbed by a lot of them and there were hundreds more coming in, not to mention the NK and his buddies. The wolves were not built up in the show like they were in the books.

I have no argument with any of that. But this site is full of crack pot theories, and this dumb one is mine. At least until next week when I'll probably find out I'm wrong, anyway.

[SerJeremiahLouistark]

2 minutes ago, dbunting said:

 

Both are true, and yet that means nothing. This is not the books, it is the show and they are different. Summer was being stabbed by a lot of them and there were hundreds more coming in, not to mention the NK and his buddies. The wolves were not built up in the show like they were in the books.

Then why would D&D go out of their way to mention the connection they have with the Stark children in the after show of 6-02?  They realize the wolves mean a lot and yet... 

 

But we all know the books aren't the same as the show.  

[Forlong the Fat]

1 minute ago, SerJeremiahLouistark said:

The wolves deaths in the books all mean something though, the ones in the show don't, save Lady's.  

How do you know that Summer's death didn't mean something?  In fact, Summer dying along with Hodor stripped Bran of his warning "vessels"--a very important plot point.  The death of "Summer," upon an invasion the white walkers, is also so obviously symbolically important that I shouldn't have to mention it.

 

[mattnj81]

3 minutes ago, Forlong the Fat said:

It's true that a book consisting of several thousand pages has more information in it than a TV show.

It's demonstrably not true that GRRM has treated the wolves any better than the show has.

There's no need for condescension. And your second statement is false. It's not a matter of how they're "treated" (Grey Wind's died in both mediums) but how they are developed as parts of the story. And they are very diffenent. Look at the reply from @nymeria's pack

[SerJeremiahLouistark]

3 minutes ago, Forlong the Fat said:

It's true that a book consisting of several thousand pages has more information in it than a TV show.

It's demonstrably not true that GRRM has treated the wolves any better than the show has.

Yes they Lady and Greywind deaths happen in the books at the hands of GRRM himself, but there is meaning and purpose behind them.  They hurt all the same but I guarantee you, the Umbers won't just plop Shaggy's head on a table.  He will have gone out a soldier.  

[GeorgeIAF]

14 minutes ago, mattnj81 said:

I'm betting Nymeria is the only wolf to survive all the way to the end, books and show.

I'm willing to take a bet that Ghost will be the one to survive all the way.

[Nymeria's pack]

1 minute ago, SerJeremiahLouistark said:

Yes they Lady and Greywind deaths happen in the books at the hands of GRRM himself, but there is meaning and purpose behind them.  They hurt all the same but I guarantee you, the Umbers won't just plop Shaggy's head on a table.  He will have gone out a soldier.  

Absolutely agree.

[Forlong the Fat]

1 minute ago, mattnj81 said:

There's no need for condescension. And your second statement is false. It's not a matter of how they're "treated" (Grey Wind's died in both mediums) but how they are developed as parts of the story. And they are very diffenent. Look at the reply from @nymeria's pack

So your point has changed.  At the beginning it was that killing Summer didn't show respect for the "importance of dire wolves."  Now it's that the relationship between wolves and Starks hasn't been fully developed.  Of course that's true, along with many other relationships because, again, the books are thousands of pages long.  Additionally, the difficulty of including wolves in scenes filmed for a television show seems fairly obvious, and explains why they wolves aren't just hanging around a lot.