Did GRRM make the Lannisters too strong?

[Aetta]

Given that GRRM likened the events in Kings Landing to the War of the Roses, yes, they are too strong in a lot of respects.  The Lancasters and Yorks had significant Plantagenet claims and allegiances, claims going back to the Conquerer, et al.  This would be more akin to House Baratheon and House Martell going at it based on their Targaryen ties.

The Lannisters are more Jane Grey in the sense that they are a poke in the eye of custom.  And they have yet to bear, at least in King's Landing, anything fruitful politically speaking.  

[Floki of the Ironborn]

33 minutes ago, ForTheNorth said:

The Lannister were never that strong before Tywin. They were very nearly usurped. Wealth doesn't equal military strength. Indian Shahs could probably have bought the United Kingdom in the 1700's. Didn't stop them from losing Wars to a trading company. Westermen don't seem to make the best warriors either. In terms of military prowess even the Iron born have better feats 

I refer you to the Cleganes, the Crakehalls, and the Lannisters themselves.

[Free Northman Reborn]

No, Martin did not overpower the Lannisters. But he did go totally over the top with the Tyrells.

At around 41k Lannister soldiers shown to date - including pot boys, street urchins, the dregs of Lannisport and mercenaries to get to that number - it seems the Lannister main strength is 35k-40k soldiers, with anything after that being scrapings, dregs and mercenaries.

This would compare to a Stark main strength of at least the 30k that Torhenn Stark brought down the Neck - with another 10-15k of lesser quality troops to fall back on. 

So the Lannisters and Starks are not very far apart in military terms.

The Tyrells however are ridiculously overpowered in the context of the story.

[JonisHenryTudor]

Personally, as much as Tywin's death pleased me (especially Joffs), I felt that Feast and Dance did a terrible job replacing them. The Boltons and Freys should replace Tywin (if you are a stark/Tully fan), but they just seemed to lack what the Lannisters brought in GoT-SoS. 

[JonisHenryTudor]

5 hours ago, Bright Blue Eyes said:

They aren't, weren't and never have been. The Lannisters were incredibly lucky. That's it. Call it plot armor if you like.

And Tywin's focus on propaganda over actual accomplishment made it seem more than it was.

I actually agree with this. It seemed to me that Tywin's physical might was a facade and his true strength was in his purse. He was unquestionably smart, but I think Robb's consecutive victories undercut any notion that Tywin was militarily dominant. 

[oopeed]

6 hours ago, James Steller said:

And speaking of the Rock, it's apparently three times as high as the Wall, which would put it at over half a kilometre in height. It's filled to the brim with tunnels that contain storerooms, dungeons, treasures, courtyards, gardens, a whole port, and even a godswood. It has never been taken, nor will it ever be taken, since not even the immense power of dragons would have been able to break it.
 

That's what Harren the Black thought...Ever heard about Iron Bulls? You just need to keep the fire going for a while and everything inside will heat beyond habitable. Actually that would be kind of a poetic justice to the massacre of Castamere; having everyone inside heated to death.

I don't think GRRM made them OP, in fact they were on bad shape in the northern front and would have been beaten if not for Lady Spicer and her plot.

If anything he made them too much likeable. Jaime and Tyrion are fan favourites and Cersei is the one every one loves to hate. Seeing their entire family fall it's kind of a pity.

[Boarsbane]

43 minutes ago, Merengues said:

That's what Harren the Black thought...Ever heard about Iron Bulls? You just need to keep the fire going for a while and everything inside will heat beyond habitable. Actually that would be kind of a poetic justice to the massacre of Castamere; having everyone inside heated to death.

I don't think GRRM made them OP, in fact they were on bad shape in the northern front and would have been beaten if not for Lady Spicer and her plot.

If anything he made them too much likeable. Jaime and Tyrion are fan favourites and Cersei is the one every one loves to hate. Seeing their entire family fall it's kind of a pity.

Visenya seemed to doubt dragons could do too much damage to CR and hers were much bigger than Dany's. 

[norwaywolf123]

8 hours ago, erra said:

I think Tywin is a special case in Westerosi Lords' history:

He wiped out two families that rebelled against him. 

Sanctioned brutally murdering babies. 

Burned and raped the Riverlands when the war started. (Before a Winter)

Ran the kingdoms and basically was more powerful than the King, when he was Hand. 

 

No internal struggle? They're all terrified of Tywin, now that he's out of the picture, all kinds of internal struggles could happen. 

The Rock withstanding dragons? Harrenhall was bigger and the dragons melted its stone walls just the same. 

There are plenty of ways to conquer a besieged castle. Number 1 is just starving them out. They simply will not survive without making peace or fighting. 

Everybody hates the Lannisters. It wouldn't take many houses (at their full strength) to rally together and simply wipe them out. 

 

I never got the impression the Lannisters were too high and mighty ... I often thought they were kind of weak because their power stemmed mostly from one person, while the main heir who could hope to replace Tywin is a King's guard who can't marry or inherit lands (under regular law) and the other heir who even has a twinkling of Tywin's governing genius is a convicted murderer running from the Crown's justice.   

 

Before Tywin took charge. The Westerlands were in turmoil. Only Aegon the 5 intervention was able to stem some of the unrest, and Egg only did this cus Tytos father Gerold had been a strong ally of his.

- Some border lords swore fealthy to Highgarden

- Tarbeck wiped out minor houses

- Reyne had a potential army of 8K

- No one paid debts back

- RObbers ruled the land mostly unpunished'

Tywin has done som much for the Lannisters. And now there are not many Lannisters left to fill the void.

Cersei: People are getting fed up with her threating them and doing just what she wants.

Jaime: Has the best chance to try to fill Tywin's void

Daven: Capeble, but Frey not listening to him show that he is not respected enough.

[norwaywolf123]

3 hours ago, JonisHenryTudor said:

I actually agree with this. It seemed to me that Tywin's physical might was a facade and his true strength was in his purse. He was unquestionably smart, but I think Robb's consecutive victories undercut any notion that Tywin was militarily dominant. 

Tywin only lost once at a border crossing. It would be easier for Lannisters fighting in the Westerlands.

 

Only two battled where both sides were prepared to fight.

Battle of the Greenfork - Lannister Victory

Crossing of the Red FOrk - Tully Victory 

[Winter's Cold]

It only appears so because Stannis killed Renly. Their alliance with the Tyrells is what allowed the Lannisters to win the war.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

12 minutes ago, Winter's Cold said:

It only appears so because Stannis killed Renly. Their alliance with the Tyrells is what allowed the Lannisters to win the war.

Well yeah, Renly is the main catalyst for the war lasting so long. Had he not decided to betray his brothers children the Reach and Stormlords would have backed Joffrey and the war over soon. Had Stannis not been given a magical weapon (like Robb) then Renly would have become King in in ACOK.

[Free Northman Reborn]

In any case, I really think the general impression of the  Lannister military strength needs to be re-evaluated. Numbers of 50-60 thousand are often thrown about as the full strength of the West. But a detailed assessment of the numbers we have seen, and the description of said forces, makes it quite evident that their strength is in fact quite a bit lower than that.

In short Tywin had 35,000 men in the Riverlands, including mercenaries. Of that force, 4000 retreated back to the West from the Battle of the Camps - 2000 infantry and 2000 bowmen.

The actual size of Stafford's Oxcross host is never mentioned, but for some reason a number of 10,000 has been floating around the forum since the beginning. 10,000 sounds  as good an estimate as any for a backup host. Furthermore, we know it included potboys, urchins and the dregs of Lannisport to get to that number. Since it would also have included the 4000 men that retreated from the Battle of the Camps, we are only talking about 6000 new men here, and most of them apparently consisting of raw green boys.

So just to get to 41,000, then, the Lannisters had to include foreign mercenaries and raw green boys. This makes it look like they are close to tapped out at that point. In terms of proper soldiers, they indeed seem to number around 35k. After that, we are talking untrained green levies, much like the Umber forces with Mors outside Winterfell.

[apovsic]

12 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

Had Stannis not been given a magical weapon (like Robb) then Renly would have become King in in ACOK.

What are you referring to here?

[Free Northman Reborn]

1 minute ago, apovsic said:

What are you referring to here?

I think he means Grey Wind, who found the secret path for Robb to circumvent the Golden Tooth. Littledragon does not like that plot development.

 

[thelittledragonthatcould]

3 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

I think he means Grey Wind, who found the secret path for Robb to circumvent the Golden Tooth. Littledragon does not like that plot development.

 

Why would I not like it? Admitting that Direwolves that have  telepathic connections to their owners is magical is not the same as not liking them.

They are a big part of the series, I quite like them just as I like the Others, Dragons and other magical aspects of the series. It would have been a much shorter series if they did not exist.

[Free Northman Reborn]

Just now, thelittledragonthatcould said:

Why would I not like it? Admitting that Direwolves that have  telepathic connections to their owners is magical.

They are a big part of the series, I quite like them just as I like the Others, Dragons and other magical aspects of the series. It would have been a much shorter series if they did not exist.

I don't think that having telepathic animals detracts from Robb's military skills anymore than giving Tywin an unlimited hoard of gold dragons detracts from his. And let's not even start with Daenerys's dragons, or the Tyrells ridiculously large army.

Martin chose to balance out the strengths and weaknesses of the key players in this game in different ways.

 

[thelittledragonthatcould]

9 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

I don't think that having telepathic animals detracts from Robb's military skills anymore than giving Tywin an unlimited hoard of gold dragons detracts from his. And let's not even start with Daenerys's dragons, or the Tyrells ridiculously large army.

 

 

Considering you frequently mention the Tyrells and Lannisters advantages why are you getting mad at someone poiniting out one of the Starks advantages?

[Free Northman Reborn]

4 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

Considering you frequently mention the Tyrells and Lannisters advantages why are you getting mad at someone poiniting out one of the Starks advantages?

Because the advantages are not equivalent. A single direwolf vs unlimited gold, and 100,000 troops. Come now.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

1 minute ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Because the advantages are not equivalent. A single direwolf vs unlimited gold, and 100,000 troops. Come now.

How many troops does the North and Riverlands have? And what has unlimited gold done for the Lannisters in the War of the Five Kings? It is not like they have hired a proper sellsword company to help them win, rather than having to settle for a smalloutfit like the Brave Companions.

And you are being ridiculous, all advantages have to be ignored if they are not exactly the same?

[Free Northman Reborn]

5 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

How many troops does the North and Riverlands have? And what has unlimited gold done for the Lannisters in the War of the Five Kings? It is not like they have hired a proper sellsword company to help them win, rather than having to settle for a smalloutfit like the Brave Companions.

And you are being ridiculous, all advantages have to be ignored if they are not exactly the same?

Nope. Just like the Starks advantages of loyalty - thanks to Eddard's years of honourable rule - are only coming to the surface now when the Starks are at their lowest point.

Tywin's gold made him the power that he was. Without it, he would not have been as influential, would not have been able to organize the Red Wedding, would not have been able to sway the Boltons so easily, etc. etc.

The mere reputation of the wealth of Casterly Rock allows even Tyrion to sign an entire Sellsword company into his service half a world away, despite him being an outcast, exile and with zero actual money to his name.

Nevermind the physical resource advantages on the ground that it brings, such as better equipment to Tywin's troops and a much higher mobilization rate than probably any other region in Westeros.