Did GRRM make the Lannisters too strong?

[Joey Crows]

Early on in the War of the Five Kings, Rob Stark has a plan to cut off Tywin's army from Casterly Rock. If it wasn't for the rashness of Edmure Tully perhaps that could have been accomplished. So, even though the Rock may be a fortress that would never be taken by pure force, it seems it could be taken by cutting the head of the Lannisters off from their home base. Then anything could happen. 

As far as the Lannisters not facing internal struggles, they have to deal with the death of the family's patriarch, incestuous relationships damaging the credibility of their house, an accusation of regicide, and the death of perhaps the only family member capable of turning things around in Kevin. 

And I may be wrong, but isn't it stated that the gold mines in the Westerlands have been dry for years?

In closing, I think the Lannisters were set up high to provide a constant source of conflict throughout the length of the series. But as they say, the bigger they are, the harder they fall.

[Sensenmenn]

20 minutes ago, Joey Crows said:

Early on in the War of the Five Kings, Rob Stark has a plan to cut off Tywin's army from Casterly Rock. If it wasn't for the rashness of Edmure Tully perhaps that could have been accomplished. So, even though the Rock may be a fortress that would never be taken by pure force, it seems it could be taken by cutting the head of the Lannisters off from their home base. Then anything could happen. 

As far as the Lannisters not facing internal struggles, they have to deal with the death of the family's patriarch, incestuous relationships damaging the credibility of their house, an accusation of regicide, and the death of perhaps the only family member capable of turning things around in Kevin. 

And I may be wrong, but isn't it stated that the gold mines in the Westerlands have been dry for years?

In closing, I think the Lannisters were set up high to provide a constant source of conflict throughout the length of the series. But as they say, the bigger they are, the harder they fall.

That was the show and the show is garbage that has nothing to do with the books.

[Joey Crows]

4 minutes ago, Sensenmenn said:

That was the show and the show is garbage that has nothing to do with the books.

I obviously didn't research that as I was typing out my immediate thoughts. Which is why I said,"I may be wrong." But thank you for that blunt correction.

[Sensenmenn]

2 minutes ago, Joey Crows said:

I obviously didn't research that as I was typing out my immediate thoughts. Which is why I said,"I may be wrong." But thank you for that blunt correction.

Sorry if that came off as rude. I just realy don't like the show and think it's stupid that people think the show spoils the books when it's obviously its own thing. 

[Joey Crows]

Just now, Sensenmenn said:

Sorry if that came off as rude. I just realy don't like the show and think it's stupid that people think the show spoils the books when it's obviously its own thing. 

No worries. We agree on the show actually. I had to finally stop watching last season and haven't seen an episode since. 

[Sensenmenn]

1 minute ago, Joey Crows said:

No worries. We agree on the show actually. I had to finally stop watching last season and haven't seen an episode since. 

Thats good to hear!

[darkdude103]

On 5/25/2016 at 11:06 PM, James Steller said:

We've had a Tully POV for three books and several instances where Edmure, the last male Tully, has his life put in danger. Edmure is threatened with hanging as though that will be the one thing Brynden Tully won't risk losing. True, he doesn't hang, but if there were other Tully relatives around, why not acknowledge them either as a backup (Brynden: Kill Edmure if you're bold enough! It won't matter, my cousin Kermit is in the castle safe and sound!") or as a person to be killed as well to eliminate the Tully threat (Jaime: "Surrender the castle, Edmure, or I'll kill your uncle, your cousin Kermit, and everyone else in Riverrun", or Jaime: "Even if we kill the Blackfish and Edmure, we need to find Kermit Tully so he doesn't avenge them by rallying the riverlords to the trout banner"). You'd think they would have brought up other Tullys by now if they existed.

Same with the Baratheons. Cersei goes out of her way to wipe out Robert's seed. Stannis has one daughter, and admittedly he's intent on making her Queen, but if there's a perfectly healthy Baratheon cousin, why not find him/her and keep them safe on Dragonstone/Storm's End/ The Wall/ by Stannis' side?

http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/gameofthrones/images/1/18/Kermit_lg.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20110623002747

I looked up kermit tully

[Tianzi]

Quote

Did GRRM make the Lannisters too strong?

For their own good? Yes.

[darkdude103]

On 5/25/2016 at 1:48 AM, Merengues said:

That's what Harren the Black thought...Ever heard about Iron Bulls? You just need to keep the fire going for a while and everything inside will heat beyond habitable. Actually that would be kind of a poetic justice to the massacre of Castamere; having everyone inside heated to death.

I don't think GRRM made them OP, in fact they were on bad shape in the northern front and would have been beaten if not for Lady Spicer and her plot.

If anything he made them too much likeable. Jaime and Tyrion are fan favourites and Cersei is the one every one loves to hate. Seeing their entire family fall it's kind of a pity.

 

Visenya or Rhaenys said they wouldn't have been able to take the rock I doubt Dany with her 3 year old dragons would be able too

[Patrek_Mallister]

We don't know enough about the internal politics of the Westerlands to conclude that the Lannisters have no internal problems with their bannermen. 

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

On 24.05.2016 at 1:23 AM, James Steller said:

I understand that the villains of a story need to be daunting for our protagonists to be the underdogs, but it's still a bit strange just how OP the Lannisters are in the story, especially given what TWOIAF revealed about Westeros and its history.

The Lannisters are the wealthiest of all the Great Houses. They command a large army of men who, barring the rule of the Laughing Lion, are more or less loyal to them and nearly always have been.

 

Or at least they used to command a large army. After the War of the Five Kings, less so.

On 24.05.2016 at 1:23 AM, James Steller said:

They faced no internal struggles, not even when the Young Wolf invaded the Westerlands, and even with the death of Tywin and the madness of Cersei and her children, the Lannisters are in no danger of losing their lands. There are plenty of Lannister males left alive, and even if they all die, there's a city filled with Lannisters next to Casterly Rock.

 

Wait 'til Tyrion comes back and tries to take the Rock from Cersei. You'll have your internal struggles.

And the fact that there are plenty Lannister males out there - huh? So I should be dismayed by the fact that exterminating each and every person bearing the name Lannister won't be easy? I don't give a damn.

On 24.05.2016 at 1:23 AM, James Steller said:

And speaking of the Rock, it's apparently three times as high as the Wall, which would put it at over half a kilometre in height. It's filled to the brim with tunnels that contain storerooms, dungeons, treasures, courtyards, gardens, a whole port, and even a godswood. It has never been taken, nor will it ever be taken, since not even the immense power of dragons would have been able to break it.

“If Storm’s End Casterly Rock is so impregnable, how do you mean to take it?”

“By guile.”

That's what invincible fortresses are for: to fall in a surprising way. (And, by the way, Storm's End had a perfect record, too, until Melisandre happened).

[Señor de la Tormenta]

Tywins strategy in the whole books is a mess. He is just incredibly lucky that several unlikely things happened . And he had no way to forshadow / expect most of them

- If Ned was not incredibly stupid it would had all ended at KL.

- He had no way to know Lysa, who kidnapped Tyron, was not entering in the war.

- Had no way to stop Renlys huge army. No way at all.  Nobody would had bet on Stannis.

- Had no hand in the IB attacking Robbs back, and Edmure Tully putting up a fight that prevented him going back to the westerlands and losing KL to Stannis

 

And a big etc.

[Scorpion92]

I am calling it: Tyrion and Dany's Dothraki horde will come back and pillage and rape Casterly Rock and Lannisport.

We know that Tyrion expressed desire to become Lord of Casterly Rock, many times in fact, so in typical GRRM fashion, I don't think Tyrion will desire it anymore and would actually love to destroy everything his father accumulated and tarnish his legacy even in afterlife.

Since no Westerland lord will accept Tyrion, the well known kinslayer and kingslayer, as their liege lord, I think Tyrion will sack Lannisport the same way Tywin sacked Castamere and King's Landing. Since there is so much mention of Tyrion knowing Casterly's sewer system, he might want to "flush" everyone out the same way Tywin drowned Reynes and Tarbecks.

I am just sure that karma will play a cruel joke on Lannisters, and the most fitting way would be one of their own, Tyrion, destroying everything they have.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

On 07/06/2016 at 10:11 PM, Señor de la Tormenta said:

Tywins strategy in the whole books is a mess. He is just incredibly lucky that several unlikely things happened . And he had no way to forshadow / expect most of them

- If Ned was not incredibly stupid it would had all ended at KL.

How exactly was that the fault of Tywin's strategy? Was he aware that his grandchildren were bastards or that Ned and others knew of this?

Seems a bizarre thing to blame Tywin's strategy on that.

On 07/06/2016 at 10:11 PM, Señor de la Tormenta said:

- He had no way to know Lysa, who kidnapped Tyron, was not entering in the war.

Cat kidnapped Tyrion. In fact she told everyone who would listen that she was heading North. Again, seems an odd thing to plan on strategy especially as at the time both his son-in-law and Ned were alive. A huge civil war as not really on the cards at that junction.

On 07/06/2016 at 10:11 PM, Señor de la Tormenta said:

- Had no way to stop Renlys huge army. No way at all.  Nobody would had bet on Stannis.

Sure. But again how is that down to poor strategy on Tywin's part? How exactly was he to know that the Tyrells would crown Renly?

If anything that is just incredibly poor luck for Tywin that such an event would happen.

On 07/06/2016 at 10:11 PM, Señor de la Tormenta said:

- Had no hand in the IB attacking Robbs back,

No one claimed that he did, that mostly on Robb.

On 07/06/2016 at 10:11 PM, Señor de la Tormenta said:

and Edmure Tully putting up a fight that prevented him going back to the westerlands

Again you are going to need to explain why exactly that was poor strategy? Certainly a calculated risk.

Stannis was able to leave Storm's End because he took the castle by magic. Strategy can not really well predict magic. I am beginning to think you don't really understand what strategy is.

On 07/06/2016 at 10:11 PM, Señor de la Tormenta said:

and losing KL to Stannis

What was stopping him receiving message and turning around?

[Señor de la Tormenta]

4 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

How exactly was that the fault of Tywin's strategy? Was he aware that his grandchildren were bastards or that Ned and others knew of this?

Seems a bizarre thing to blame Tywin's strategy on that.

Cat kidnapped Tyrion. In fact she told everyone who would listen that she was heading North. Again, seems an odd thing to plan on strategy especially as at the time both his son-in-law and Ned were alive. A huge civil war as not really on the cards at that junction.

Sure. But again how is that down to poor strategy on Tywin's part? How exactly was he to know that the Tyrells would crown Renly?

If anything that is just incredibly poor luck for Tywin that such an event would happen.

No one claimed that he did, that mostly on Robb.

Again you are going to need to explain why exactly that was poor strategy? Certainly a calculated risk.

Stannis was able to leave Storm's End because he took the castle by magic. Strategy can not really well predict magic. I am beginning to think you don't really understand what strategy is.

What was stopping him receiving message and turning around?

you are missing my point. I point at lannisters plot armour. All the events I described would end, in 99% of the cases with an awful, crushing defeat. he needed all of them to happen one after the other to win, with no hand in it. 

[thelittledragonthatcould]

30 minutes ago, Señor de la Tormenta said:

you are missing my point. I point at lannisters plot armour.

It is hardly plot armour; Tywin, kevan, Joffrey, Willem, Tion, Cleos and Stafford all dead. Tyrion and Myrcella disgustingly disfigured, Jaime lost his sword hand, Cersei paranoid and half crazed and most importantly of all a kingdom full of beets for poor Tommen.

How exactly is that 'plot armour'?

Quote

 

All the events I described would end, in 99% of the cases with an awful, crushing defeat. he needed all of them to happen one after the other to win, with no hand in it. 

No, not all of them. Just Renly

[Señor de la Tormenta]

5 hours ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

It is hardly plot armour; Tywin, kevan, Joffrey, Willem, Tion, Cleos and Stafford all dead. Tyrion and Myrcella disgustingly disfigured, Jaime lost his sword hand, Cersei paranoid and half crazed and most importantly of all a kingdom full of beets for poor Tommen.

How exactly is that 'plot armour'?

No, not all of them. Just Renly

well, thats your opinion.

 

what if edmure did as he was told and let tywin go back to the westerlands. He would then be trapped by robb, and KL would had fallen under Stannis. How is this not a crushing defeat?

 

how  could he face the vale knights helping the starks and the tullies?, how could he know, when he was in harrenthal, that Lysa, the one who started the whole mess atacking his family members, was secretly under baelish commands not to enter the war? How can we think this was a well, calculated gamble, when he gambled with things he didnt know? The whole Vale was pressing to go to war!!! then, and before

 

and how could he know Balon was going to attack the north, planting the seed to robbs doom by treasson and the breaking of the tully-stark front? he had no hand even in robb dumbliy upseting the freys.

 

every single normal scenario ends with the lannisters being crushed. and you insist that he was not lucky during the war of the five kings?

 

And I think we agree that if stannis could not kill Renly, (something that Tywin could had never count on)  there was no way in hell he could had stopped renlys massive army. Damn! its not even settled if he thought he could handle Stannis storm landers, or just went there when he found edmure blocking the way. 

[Boarsbane]

10 minutes ago, Señor de la Tormenta said:

well, thats your opinion.

 

what if edmure did as he was told and let tywin go back to the westerlands. He would then be trapped by robb, and KL would had fallen under Stannis. How is this not a crushing defeat?

 

how  could he face the vale knights helping the starks and the tullies?, how could he know, when he was in harrenthal, that Lysa, the one who started the whole mess atacking his family members, was secretly under baelish commands not to enter the war? How can we think this was a well, calculated gamble, when he gambled with things he didnt know? The whole Vale was pressing to go to war!!! then, and before

 

and how could he know Balon was going to attack the north, planting the seed to robbs doom by treasson and the breaking of the tully-stark front? he had no hand even in robb dumbliy upseting the freys.

 

every single normal scenario ends with the lannisters being crushed. and you insist that he was not lucky during the war of the five kings?

 

And I think we agree that if stannis could not kill Renly, (something that Tywin could had never count on)  there was no way in hell he could had stopped renlys massive army. Damn! its not even settled if he thought he could handle Stannis storm landers, or just went there when he found edmure blocking the way. 

And what you are saying isn't an opinion? 

How is Robb going to trap Tywin with an army about 1/3 of the size of Tywin's? Not to mention they'd be in Tywin's homeland.

Also how do you know the Tyrells wouldn't attack Stannis without Tywin? It's better for them, they get all the glory and it's not like Tywin's 20 or so thousand were game changers at the battle. Stannis' men are literally throwing down their weapons when Renly's ghost shows up.

Lysa is a cowardly woman, more concerned about her son than fighting Tywin, it's no guarantee she would of joined. A no the entire Vale wasn't calling for war against the crown. Still his plan was obviously to capture Ned to begin with so it doesn't come to all out war to begin with, but his son obviously mucks that up, of course everyone always ignores this part. So when that fails he moves to neutralize the Tullys quickly, and succeeds until his son gets himself captured and his host shattered. So he moves to a strategically advantageous position to await reinforcement, but wait Robbs magic wolf find an unknowns trail around the West's natural defenses and somehow no one notices Robbs army crossing the Westerlands, lands he and BF shouldn't even know I might add, to remove Tywin's 3rd army.

He had good luck and bad luck like every single person in the books

 

[Trigger Warning]

On 26/05/2016 at 8:16 AM, ForTheNorth said:

The Tyrells are just former stewards though. So while hypothetically they have alot of power, but I don't think any of their vassals really respect them so they have to play it safe as to why they didn't commit to Aerys. 

This is a good point, it's also a good point that the Reach didn't rise in such numbers for the Tyrells who were rising for Renly, many of them will have risen just because of Renly, Penrose even lists Tarly, Rowan and Oakheart as "they who loved Renly best" so it's safe to assume that Renly has spent time cultivating friends in the Reach outside of the Tyrells, hence the huge force he could gather is a result of those special circumstances rather than just the Tyrells marshalling their forces. 

[Señor de la Tormenta]

36 minutes ago, Boarsbane said:

And what you are saying isn't an opinion? 

How is Robb going to trap Tywin with an army about 1/3 of the size of Tywin's? Not to mention they'd be in Tywin's homeland.

Also how do you know the Tyrells wouldn't attack Stannis without Tywin? It's better for them, they get all the glory and it's not like Tywin's 20 or so thousand were game changers at the battle. Stannis' men are literally throwing down their weapons when Renly's ghost shows up.

Lysa is a cowardly woman, more concerned about her son than fighting Tywin, it's no guarantee she would of joined. A no the entire Vale wasn't calling for war against the crown. Still his plan was obviously to capture Ned to begin with so it doesn't come to all out war to begin with, but his son obviously mucks that up, of course everyone always ignores this part. So when that fails he moves to neutralize the Tullys quickly, and succeeds until his son gets himself captured and his host shattered. So he moves to a strategically advantageous position to await reinforcement, but wait Robbs magic wolf find an unknowns trail around the West's natural defenses and somehow no one notices Robbs army crossing the Westerlands, lands he and BF shouldn't even know I might add, to remove Tywin's 3rd army.

He had good luck and bad luck like every single person in the books

 

The tyrells wouldn had move without a deal with the Lannisters. If Tywin could march to the westerlands, then there would had been no deal.