lancerman Posted June 25, 2016 Share Posted June 25, 2016 6 hours ago, Kusanagi said: Show Snow was completely out of character and the writing went against what he was setting up to be. If you want to show him still being an hot head? Fine, but you can also have Davos or whoever stops him running off and sends some else to rescue Rickon, and this person promptly gets shot to pieces. This is way you reinforce the idea of him learning and how he realizes he has a huge burden on his shoulders, that people can die because of his actions. This way you show he is a complex and conflicted character. But no, the show has to make him a plot armor wearing idiot who needs to be saved by deus ex machina. You don't need to be a great writer to figure out that's bad writing. In the books a letter (he thinks is written by Ramsay) goads him into breaking a thousand year tradition of the Watch by saying they need to attack the son of the current Warden of the North and it gets him killed. That was incredibly hot headed and "stupid". It's also VERY similar. And it wasn't nearly as abrasive as literally shooting arrows at Jon's little brother. So no it's not entirely inconsistent with character. It's an example of being selective with which actions you want to apply to Jon's character. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lancerman Posted June 25, 2016 Share Posted June 25, 2016 1 hour ago, Direwight said: GRRM is to blame for not finishing the books yet. The show is to blame for the show sucking (if you think it sucks). That's all there is to it. The idea that GRRM not having finished the books means that there exists some kind of invisible cosmic force which forces the writing of the show to suck (if you think it sucks) is obviously ridiculous. If you have a budget of $10 million per episode, you can get as good writing as you want. Do me a favor. Take a book a series that you never read. Try to write an episode by episode synopsis of how you would adapt it (not even a full screen play, just a general outline of how you would structure). Before you read the second third have your friend tell you the endgame. Then use the second third of the material as a springboard point and go in completely blind of the final third to finish off your synopsis' and try to keep it as close as possible to the end your friend told you. There isn't a writer on the face of the planet whose going to claim that is remotely easy without running into similar issues where you start to gut down plots. And that $10 million isn't a real argument. That's $10 million where you already have contracts with the cast and crew, know you have to pay for the locations and props, and all the travel expenses, then editing and CGI. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TepidHands Posted June 25, 2016 Share Posted June 25, 2016 Benioff told Entertainment Weekly back in March that Season 6 was "the best one we've ever done." "This season there is not one weak episode," he said. Either he is terribly lacking in self-awareness, or he is operating under a different definition of the words "best" and "weak." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrypticWeirwood Posted June 25, 2016 Share Posted June 25, 2016 On June 23, 2016 at 7:51 PM, illinifan said: How is Jon screwing up the battle like he did a butchery of his character? How about Sansa brutally murdering someone in the last episode? That strikes me as gray. Aragorn certainly wouldn't end up in that position and Jon is basically the Aragorn of Game of Thrones. What does that mean? That’s he’s destined to marry one of the Others? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lockjaw of House Boltagon Posted June 25, 2016 Share Posted June 25, 2016 7 hours ago, Ser Quork said: Since they changed so much that was major in both plot and characterisation where they did have the books, I don't think it's reasonable to assume they'd have kept to the final books if they had been written by now - the evidence says your premise is demonstrably wrong. They started making major changes when they were adapting aFfC and aDwD, which as we know don't have a proper ending and leave dozens of plotlines hanging. Had GRRM finished WoW at least they might've had a more complete picture to work with so they wouldn't have strayed so far from the source. 4 hours ago, Darkstream said: Since it appears that d$d haven't even read AFFC & ADWD, I highly doubt that GRRM having finished WOW would be any benefit to them. They have shown that they clearly have no issues with making up their own drivel even when there is an abundance of source material to draw from. That's funny, because it has happened with the books that were already written. I'm pretty sure AFFC was available to d$d before they wrote season five's debacle in Dorne, as well ADWD was out long before they decided to replace the entire Northern plot for their super villain Ramsey Sue. Beside, blaming GRRM for d$d's (two professional writers) incompetence in writing a decent story is ridiculous to begin with. That would be like blaming the kid that sat in front of you in school for you failing a test because you couldn't see his answers clearly enough to copy them. Why should GRRM be held responsible at all for something that he had nothing to do with writing? d$d are supposed to be Emmy worthy writers, yet they can't even do a half ass job without having the entire story written for them. It's pathetic, they should have their Emmy stripped from them, it was never deserved in the first place. That's not a good analogy. The proper metaphor would be the teacher just saying "Fuck it" days before the test and going to tend to movie theater or something, leaving the students to their own devices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
illinifan Posted June 25, 2016 Share Posted June 25, 2016 32 minutes ago, CrypticWeirwood said: What does that mean? That’s he’s destined to marry one of the Others? No. He is the dashing action hero. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lockjaw of House Boltagon Posted June 25, 2016 Share Posted June 25, 2016 29 minutes ago, TepidHands said: Benioff told Entertainment Weekly back in March that Season 6 was "the best one we've ever done." "This season there is not one weak episode," he said. Either he is terribly lacking in self-awareness, or he is operating under a different definition of the words "best" and "weak." Are you five years old? Do you seriously think he should've said to Entertainment Weekly "This season is shit, it's the worst piece of crap we've ever written, every episode is more terrible than the last. Please don't watch our show"? Jfc 1 hour ago, lancerman said: In the books a letter (he thinks is written by Ramsay) goads him into breaking a thousand year tradition of the Watch by saying they need to attack the son of the current Warden of the North and it gets him killed. That was incredibly hot headed and "stupid". It's also VERY similar. And it wasn't nearly as abrasive as literally shooting arrows at Jon's little brother. So no it's not entirely inconsistent with character. It's an example of being selective with which actions you want to apply to Jon's character. Exactly it was pretty much the same thing. As I argued in another thread, even if we're not privy to Jon's conversation with Tormund, we have to accept that whatever his plan, he's still A) going to Winterfell (read: march hundreds of miles during a snowstorm) and B ) allowing wildlings to march south which is the straw that broke the camel's back as far as Bowen Marsh is concerned. Slightly different context, pretty similar response. Don't see what all the fuss is about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fattest Leech Posted June 25, 2016 Share Posted June 25, 2016 12 minutes ago, Lyin' Ned said: They started making major changes when they were adapting aFfC and aDwD, which as we know don't have a proper ending and leave dozens of plotlines hanging. Had GRRM finished WoW at least they might've had a more complete picture to work with so they wouldn't have strayed so far from the source. That's not a good analogy. The proper metaphor would be the teacher just saying "Fuck it" days before the test and going to tend to movie theater or something, leaving the students to their own devices. The D's started making big changes back in S3, which was part of Storm. The D'smade some pretty significant changes and cut all foreshadowing in the opening scene of the first episode. The D's made so many changes to the pilot episode that it made no sense, therefore they had to go make it again. Funny enough, this pilot episode was one of the only things they filmed that was really close to the books when it was put on screen. I am curious as hell what they made that was so bad that it had to be rewritten and refilmed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrypticWeirwood Posted June 25, 2016 Share Posted June 25, 2016 4 minutes ago, illinifan said: No. He is the dashing action hero. “Action” aside, Sam was the chief hero in Tolkien’s work, by his own words. And our Sam is an homage to that one, the person the author most identifies with. I’m thinking people are missing the boat here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lockjaw of House Boltagon Posted June 25, 2016 Share Posted June 25, 2016 1 minute ago, The Fattest Leech said: The D's started making big changes back in S3, which was part of Storm. The D'smade some pretty significant changes and cut all foreshadowing in the opening scene of the first episode. The D's made so many changes to the pilot episode that it made no sense, therefore they had to go make it again. Funny enough, this pilot episode was one of the only things they filmed that was really close to the books when it was put on screen. I am curious as hell what they made that was so bad that it had to be rewritten and refilmed. A lot of what I've read about the original pilot suggests that it made no sense precisely because they stuck far too close to the source material to the point where it looked awkward and weird. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fattest Leech Posted June 25, 2016 Share Posted June 25, 2016 2 minutes ago, Lyin' Ned said: A lot of what I've read about the original pilot suggests that it made no sense precisely because they stuck far too close to the source material to the point where it looked awkward and weird. Haha. No. It made no sense because the test viewers were confused as to what was going on. They test viewers couldn't even tell that Jaime and Cersei were related. They moved away from book material and people got confused with what they saw on screen. They went back to being much, much closer to book material and that is what made it to screen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Ghost of Someone Posted June 25, 2016 Share Posted June 25, 2016 Considering ADWD was released and before that, D&D&C saw it, including the bumped Sansa/Alayne chapter, they have done on the show what they have wanted to. It is all on them. GRRM may be slow compared to other authors but these books are huge and I would rather he take the time he does and tells the true story. D&D&C started changing stuff "in a big way" in Season 2 with Robb and Talisa, Tyrion morphing into a Saint, Cersei into Carol the Poor put upon Tiger Mom etc... it has only gotten worse year after year. So, obviously D&D&C have chosen to do their own "thing". In case anyone is wondering who "C" is, in D&D&C, it is Bryan Cogman, the enthusiastic architect and "public spin" guy for the Sansa rape story of Season 5 which has had a ripple effect throughout the show to this very day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Ghost of Someone Posted June 25, 2016 Share Posted June 25, 2016 7 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said: Haha. No. It made no sense because the test viewers were confused as to what was going on. They test viewers couldn't even tell that Jaime and Cersei were related. They moved away from book material and people got confused with what they saw on screen. They went back to being much, much closer to book material and that is what made it to screen. I'm sure they still had their sex scene. No way they would leave that out but people probably just thought he was one of their guard "knights" and not also her twin brother. Cat says that to the children as they arrive in the new pilot, which clarifies that. How incompetent was that? I mean, that is whole basis for everything in Westeros going to hell, the Twincest for crying out loud ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lockjaw of House Boltagon Posted June 25, 2016 Share Posted June 25, 2016 9 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said: Haha. No. It made no sense because the test viewers were confused as to what was going on. They test viewers couldn't even tell that Jaime and Cersei were related. They moved away from book material and people got confused with what they saw on screen. They went back to being much, much closer to book material and that is what made it to screen. Sis, I'm just telling you what I read. "TL;DR: The pilot version is closer to the book, and everything feels a bit stiffer. The language is generally more formal, and the scenes go on longer and are more draggy. A lot of crucial exposition is left out or unclear, and the characters' relationships aren't highlighted the same way. The Stark family, in particular, feels way less like a real family of people who love each other in the pilot script." http://io9.gizmodo.com/how-different-was-the-unaired-pilot-of-game-of-thrones-473593778 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fattest Leech Posted June 25, 2016 Share Posted June 25, 2016 27 minutes ago, Lyin' Ned said: Sis, I'm just telling you what I read. "TL;DR: The pilot version is closer to the book, and everything feels a bit stiffer. The language is generally more formal, and the scenes go on longer and are more draggy. A lot of crucial exposition is left out or unclear, and the characters' relationships aren't highlighted the same way. The Stark family, in particular, feels way less like a real family of people who love each other in the pilot script." http://io9.gizmodo.com/how-different-was-the-unaired-pilot-of-game-of-thrones-473593778 Ok. Well articles that I have read have explained it further and explained how the viewers, including dear friend and now northern house Maizin, told them they had "massive problems". That it is Unrecognizable and hard to follow. That no one could tell the Lannister twins were related. The show being "stiff" is a result of directing and/or not understanding the character. Which, incidentally, is something a large handful of actors have complained about. Isnt that the job of the two show runners? To convert a story they supposedly read so many times to screen in a comprehensive way? The show runners did not do that the first time and had to start over. Season 1 was the closest to the books, no argument there, but if the pilot was so confusing to people, that was the D's fault for trying to rewrite it to make it "theirs". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lockjaw of House Boltagon Posted June 25, 2016 Share Posted June 25, 2016 2 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said: Ok. Well articles that I have read have explained it further and explained how the viewers, including dear friend and now northern house Maizin, told them they had "massive problems". That it is I recognizable and hard to follow. That no one could tell the Lannister twins were related. The show being "stiff" is a result of directing and/or not understanding the character. Which, incidentally, is something a large handful of actors have complained about. Isnt that the job of the two show runners? To convert a story they supposedly read so many times to screen in a comprehensive way? The show runners did not do that the first time and had to start over. Season 1 was the closest to the books, no argument there, but if the pilot was so confusing to people, that was the D's fault for trying to rewrite it to make it "theirs". That's literally the opposite of what the article I linked says, but ok. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fattest Leech Posted June 25, 2016 Share Posted June 25, 2016 9 minutes ago, Lyin' Ned said: Sis, I'm just telling you what I read. "TL;DR: The pilot version is closer to the book, and everything feels a bit stiffer. The language is generally more formal, and the scenes go on longer and are more draggy. A lot of crucial exposition is left out or unclear, and the characters' relationships aren't highlighted the same way. The Stark family, in particular, feels way less like a real family of people who love each other in the pilot script." http://io9.gizmodo.com/how-different-was-the-unaired-pilot-of-game-of-thrones-473593778 Wow. And if you read the rest of that article, especially from points 4 and on, you can see how the D's were playing favorites back then. You can see how the D's don't understand the importance of the direwolves (Tyrion just "pets" Ghost). And the fact that the D's had way less of the Starks in the beginning, even though they are a main element of the show, being Wardens of the north and each of the Stark kids being massively important to every storyline. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fattest Leech Posted June 25, 2016 Share Posted June 25, 2016 3 minutes ago, Lyin' Ned said: That's literally the opposite of what the article I linked says, but ok. No, it's not. Read the rest of the article. It literally gives an outline of the differences and what the D's had changed in the first place or had to change back. The line you pasted even says, " a lot of crucial exposition is left out or unclear." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fattest Leech Posted June 25, 2016 Share Posted June 25, 2016 9 minutes ago, Lyin' Ned said: That's literally the opposite of what the article I linked says, but ok. And in that article you posted it says that this clearly wasn't a "book snob" issue either: In 2011, producers David Benioff and D.B. Weiss told us that they watched this version of the pilot with their friends who hadn't read the books — and at the end of the hour, their friends had no clue Jaime and Cersei were brother and sister. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SerMixalot Posted June 25, 2016 Share Posted June 25, 2016 8 hours ago, Lyin' Ned said: That's a legitimate concern (about Dorne especially and characters acting OOC) but it still doesn't let GRRM completely off the hook, IMO, because it probably wouldn't be happening if he had written the damn books. I'd say both GRRM and B&W share the blame tbh, the former for sleeping on his laurels and the latter for some crappy writing. That simply is not true. D&D had all of the important story points for Robb-Jeyne arc through the RW. They gave us Talisa a complete D&D creaction. Talisa is simply one of those characters that goes completely against the tone and setting that she is set in. That is a perfect example of D&D "creating" within GRRMs story. That was their decision. And example of their inability to write coherent characters and plots Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.