How Much Did GRRM tell D&D?

[CrypticWeirwood]

58 minutes ago, illinifan said:

And the point I am trying to make is that GOT is still quite gray and in keeping with the books.  Would Tolkien or any author of traditional high fantasy have their main hero screw up a battle due to his actions?

Yes, many times.  Here’s one.

In Tolkien’s Children of Húrin, when Túrin was the Captain of Nargothrond he against counsel to keep them hidden led the ancient kingdom’s people into open warfare against the Enemy, even building a bridge across the otherwise impassable river that guarded the hidden caverns.  As a direct result of Túrin’s stupidity, the battle was lost and the city sacked.

Túrin made plenty of other mistakes, too, like marrying his sister and killing his best friend, both by accident and stupidity.

And yes, Túrin was the hero of his tale, one of the great heroes of Men from the Elder Days, ranking at the very top along with Hador and Húrin, Tuor and Beren. It is prophesied that when the Enemy escapes at the end of time, it is Túrin come again who shall slay that Enemy once and for all so that the world can be remade.

Being a hero in epic fantasy doesn’t mean you make no mistakes or always win.  Not even in Tolkien.  It’s easy to pull out plenty of other such cases from Tolkien’s writings, even if most people haven’t been paying attention or haven’t read those writings.

[SerMixalot]

2 hours ago, Lyin' Ned said:

SNIP

Sure but as annoying as she was Talisa wasn't a change as huge as say, Sansa in Winterfell. The truly big deviations started around season 4. The previous seasons were mostly faithful to the books, tho of course you could nitpick them to infinity. 

Your argument "That's a legitimate concern (about Dorne especially and characters acting OOC) but it still doesn't let GRRM completely off the hook, IMO, because it probably wouldn't be happening if he had written the damn books."

 

Characters acting OOC and stupid storylines are partially GRRMs fault for not finishing the book

I present an example of a HORRIBLE character completely invented a. by D&D and b. who' entire storyline is told within GRRMs works (Jeyne Westerling)

Your rebuttal is that Talisa is a huge change?  That is pure nonsense.  She completely changed Robb's story for 2 seasons from the book- you know Robb who was one of the stars of those 2 season. Making an honorable character into a selfish character-he even states in the show he is acting out of selfishness. That is a HUGE change from the books (and another example of D&D destroying the Starks mind you).  It is in line with what they did with Sansa.  In fact there are a very large number of parallels in what they did-both are made to act stupidly, making horrible decisions about marriage that negatively impact their lives and the lives of those around them, getting family members killed, etc.  And all for a completely anachronistic character for the world they are adapting.

You can blame GRRM all you want, but you are simply wrong.  D&D did it they own that. 

 

[Masha]

12 hours ago, Ser Quork said:

Well, that's patently false when you look at what they did with the Northern storyline alone where they had A, B, C and D.  They smashed it up with a dash of Sansa and Davos where they didn't belong and left out Stannis and the North Remembers, huge components where they did belong, and they've cooked up a whole, hot mess of stupidity that makes no sense.

They may not have had D-E, but why change everything they did have?  Because they thought they could do better than what was written - or they would not have done it!

I don't have anymore to say to those who are wilfully blind so I'll leave this conversation here.

No need to be insulting and expecting that your obvious dislike of the show writing is the right one

And they had to change a lot of things because those things were going nowhere and were getting bogged down for another book or more that was nowhere near coming?

How do you get from Dead Jon to King of the North Jon, if you keep Stannis and GNC storyline? And apparently you need to have KofN Jon BEFORE WW take down the Wall

So Stannis does all the work, takes down Ramsey/Boltons, Northern Lords all help out and then what? 

Turn on Stannis who did all the work? Declare for Jon because he came from the dead and did absolutely nothing? If all Northern Lords other than Karstark declare for Jon, what is the tension in confrontation in taking down Bolton?

How do you get from stalled Sansa in the Vale who is still childish and doing Absolutely Nothing with no greatest ambition than to organize a tourney and flirt with another man that maybe started to read other people better but still naively to mature Sansa in the North?  

Yes, GRRM probably has a great plan in mind, and we all will love reading it but if book so nowhere near done, how to get from those points to end game points with no outline ?

 

[Darkstream]

12 minutes ago, Masha said:

No need to be insulting and expecting that your obvious dislike of the show writing is the right one

And they had to change a lot of things because those things were going nowhere and were getting bogged down for another book or more that was nowhere near coming?

How do you get from Dead Jon to King of the North Jon, if you keep Stannis and GNC storyline? And apparently you need to have KofN Jon BEFORE WW take down the Wall

So Stannis does all the work, takes down Ramsey/Boltons, Northern Lords all help out and then what? 

Turn on Stannis who did all the work? Declare for Jon because he came from the dead and did absolutely nothing? If all Northern Lords other than Karstark declare for Jon, what is the tension in confrontation in taking down Bolton?

How do you get from stalled Sansa in the Vale who is still childish and doing Absolutely Nothing with no greatest ambition than to organize a tourney and flirt with another man that maybe started to read other people better but still naively to mature Sansa in the North?  

Yes, GRRM probably has a great plan in mind, and we all will love reading it but if book so nowhere near done, how to get from those points to end game points with no outline ?

 

  Simple, you hire competent writers.

[StepStark]

41 minutes ago, Darkstream said:

  Simple, you hire competent writers.

No, you can't do that, competent writing doesn't translate too well on screen, the show would be canceled.

[The Dew]

3 hours ago, StepStark said:

I know I'm going to laugh at their incompetence once again. By the way, it's not as if he needs to not tell them something for them to get everything completely backwards. Ahem, Tysha, ahem.

Hahaha true!

[Darkstream]

1 hour ago, StepStark said:

No, you can't do that, competent writing doesn't translate too well on screen, the show would be canceled.

Too true, d$d accomplished semi-competent writing in the first couple of seasons, and apparently that wasn't successful. Must be why they abandoned coherent writing all together since then.

[StepStark]

1 hour ago, Darkstream said:

Too true, d$d accomplished semi-competent writing in the first couple of seasons, and apparently that wasn't successful. Must be why they abandoned coherent writing all together since then.

You know, I think they are right, we're too easy on George. First, he finished the first three books, which obviously forced D&D to make all those changes in the first four seasons, and then he refused to finish the last two books, which obviously forced D&D to make all those changes in the last two seasons. You just can't deal with a guy like that. Poor D&D.

[SerMixalot]

Stepstark wins

[Kusanagi]

13 hours ago, lancerman said:

In the books a letter (he thinks is written by Ramsay) goads him into breaking a thousand year tradition of the Watch by saying they need to attack the son of the current Warden of the North and it gets him killed. That was incredibly hot headed and "stupid". It's also VERY similar. And it wasn't nearly as abrasive as literally shooting arrows at Jon's little brother. So no it's not entirely inconsistent with character. It's an example of being selective with which actions you want to apply to Jon's character.

And you just forget to on going conflicts within the Watch once Book Snow has taken control and starts to incorporate wildlings into their ranks? And you forget how Bolton control Castle Black's line of communication and he threaten the survival of the Watch? And you forget how Snow is willing the break away the Watch's tradition, and opt for practical solutions and conflict arises? And you forget how Snow is brought up in the North and follows North's code of honor?

Book Snow getting stab is a complex reaction to a plethora of factors, character motivations, and pages and pages of setups with full foreshadowing. Show Snow one-man charge/stupidity isn't.

[Neds Secret]

4 hours ago, StepStark said:

You know, I think they are right, we're too easy on George. First, he finished the first three books, which obviously forced D&D to make all those changes in the first four seasons, and then he refused to finish the last two books, which obviously forced D&D to make all those changes in the last two seasons. You just can't deal with a guy like that. Poor D&D.

All D$D need is a little violin playing sad songs for them, poor old D$D,long suffering victims of That hack GRRMs total lack of authorial skills!

[illinifan]

10 hours ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

Yes, many times.  Here’s one.

In Tolkien’s Children of Húrin, when Túrin was the Captain of Nargothrond he against counsel to keep them hidden led the ancient kingdom’s people into open warfare against the Enemy, even building a bridge across the otherwise impassable river that guarded the hidden caverns.  As a direct result of Túrin’s stupidity, the battle was lost and the city sacked.

Túrin made plenty of other mistakes, too, like marrying his sister and killing his best friend, both by accident and stupidity.

And yes, Túrin was the hero of his tale, one of the great heroes of Men from the Elder Days, ranking at the very top along with Hador and Húrin, Tuor and Beren. It is prophesied that when the Enemy escapes at the end of time, it is Túrin come again who shall slay that Enemy once and for all so that the world can be remade.

Being a hero in epic fantasy doesn’t mean you make no mistakes or always win.  Not even in Tolkien.  It’s easy to pull out plenty of other such cases from Tolkien’s writings, even if most people haven’t been paying attention or haven’t read those writings.

I don't think that most people have read the books that you have read.  I've only read LOTR and thought that Aragorn was actually a pretty boring character in the books.  The movies made him a more conflicted character, which I thought made more sense.  (And if you want to meet picky book purists, but at least LOTR fanboys were complaining about deviations from a completed product.)

[illinifan]

Here is a thought that makes this whole thread irrelevant?  Do you guys actually think that Martin is going to ever finish the last two books?  It's been five years and I haven't heard any inklings about Martin being any closer to finishing TWoW.  If that is the case, then fans should be glad that they are getting a resolution to the story based on Martin's broad outline.  Martin has actually stated in his will that another author cannot finish the books, so be glad that the HBO shows are going to tell us what happens because I doubt we are going to get conclusion through the written word.

[Ser Biscuit]

5 hours ago, Kusanagi said:

And you just forget to on going conflicts within the Watch once Book Snow has taken control and starts to incorporate wildlings into their ranks? And you forget how Bolton control Castle Black's line of communication and he threaten the survival of the Watch? And you forget how Snow is willing the break away the Watch's tradition, and opt for practical solutions and conflict arises? And you forget how Snow is brought up in the North and follows North's code of honor?

Book Snow getting stab is a complex reaction to a plethora of factors, character motivations, and pages and pages of setups with full foreshadowing. Show Snow one-man charge/stupidity isn't.

Amen. The surrounding circumstances surrunding Jon's stabbing in the books are complex, subtle yet neatly  forshadowed, and concludes in a shocking, haunting fashion. GRRM laids the groundwork for it and then knocks it out of the park. D&D on the other hand seem to follow a storyline I saw on a Loony Toons cartoon between Yosemite Sam, Bugs Bunny, and Daffy Duck. Just more of their exceptional "adaption" capabilities on display.

GRRM: After winning a surprising election to become the Lord Commander of Night's Watch and at the behest of King Stannis, Jon seeks to end the centuries-long rivalry between the Night's Watch and Free Folk by offering them shelter, food, and training at arms in exchange for a mutual alliance against their common and original foe the "Others". Over the course of eight months Jon's decisions began to be questioned by a small group of his closest advisers who see him as a puppet of King Stannis with a torn allegiance between the Watch and Free Folk; furthered by their belief that Jon's amnesty plans may end the Watch either by lack of food or by being greatly outnumbered. After Mellisandra's dire prophetic warnings to him of potential betrayers in his midst and frustrated by his advisors' prejudices, Jon begins make decisions more unilaterally either by making deals in private or choosing council from his closest friends of the Free Folk. After Melissandra claims to forsee Arya on road to the Wall after having escaped her marriage to Ramsey Bolton, Jon OKs a plan which enlists Mance Rayer to escort Arya the rest of the way, but the plan goes array. Jon is then sent an angry letter by Ramsey demanding not only Arya back, but several people close to King Stannis at the threat of the Boltons marching to the Wall to cut his heart out, marking the breaking point for both Jon and those who would betray him. Jon informs the watch of the threat on his life and announces a plan to take on Ramsey while leaving the Night's Watch out of danger, but before he can carry it out he's ambushed and is stabbed multiple times by four of his closest NW advisers, his fate dire but uncertain.

D&D: Jon is elected to the become the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch much to the chagrin of Alister Thorne who doesn't like him and never fails a chance at giving him a disgusted look, only missing the patented mustache twirling in his scenes. After pretty much doing nothing half the time, Jon lets the Free Folk in without much objection. From then on Olly gives Jon a look of death at least once an episode with ominous music playing in the background in case you haven't gotten the hint. After a rescue mission gone array for Free Folk in Hardhome, Jon returns to the Wall and let is in by Thorne, only to get stabbed to death by enough people that you could build a football team with, led by Thorne and Olly in the least surprising on screen death since a gorilla climbed the Empire State Building. And why was Jon killed? Well.. because REASONS!

[Darkstream]

1 hour ago, Ser Biscuit said:

Amen. <snip for length>

And an Amen to you as well. Excellent summary.  

 

1 hour ago, Ser Biscuit said:

GRRM laids the groundwork for it and then knocks it out of the park. D&D on the other hand seem to follow a storyline I saw on a Loony Toons cartoon between Yosemite Sam, Bugs Bunny, and Daffy Duck. Just more of their exceptional "adaption" capabilities on display.

 So true.

[BalerionTheCat]

3 hours ago, illinifan said:

Here is a thought that makes this whole thread irrelevant?  Do you guys actually think that Martin is going to ever finish the last two books?  It's been five years and I haven't heard any inklings about Martin being any closer to finishing TWoW.  If that is the case, then fans should be glad that they are getting a resolution to the story based on Martin's broad outline.  Martin has actually stated in his will that another author cannot finish the books, so be glad that the HBO shows are going to tell us what happens because I doubt we are going to get conclusion through the written word.

It is not a resolution. It is a sabotage. If GRRM was to leave the story unfinished, everyone here would go on indefinitely with his/her version of how the story should unfold. And I could live with that. Now, when I see one D&D episode, the only thing I want is GRRM to redress his story. I just want more urgently the next book (which we will very likely see).

[sweetsunray]

5 hours ago, illinifan said:

Here is a thought that makes this whole thread irrelevant?  Do you guys actually think that Martin is going to ever finish the last two books?  It's been five years and I haven't heard any inklings about Martin being any closer to finishing TWoW.  If that is the case, then fans should be glad that they are getting a resolution to the story based on Martin's broad outline.  Martin has actually stated in his will that another author cannot finish the books, so be glad that the HBO shows are going to tell us what happens because I doubt we are going to get conclusion through the written word.

I know a world-selling author who required over 30 years to finish 6 books. I waited over a decade for the 5th and then close to another decade for the 6th. So, me, I haven't lost any faith at all. 

[illinifan]

3 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

It is not a resolution. It is a sabotage. If GRRM was to leave the story unfinished, everyone here would go on indefinitely with his/her version of how the story should unfold. And I could live with that. Now, when I see one D&D episode, the only thing I want is GRRM to redress his story. I just want more urgently the next book (which we will very likely see).

I don't think it is sabotage.  I think that it is adapting the books for television.  No TV show is going to film a season where the main stars (Dany, Tyrion, and Jon) are off screen for a year.  It is expensive and confusing to add additional characters like FAegon and Quentyn, especially since both are filler.

[kissdbyfire]

13 minutes ago, illinifan said:

I don't think it is sabotage.  I think that it is adapting the books for television.  No TV show is going to film a season where the main stars (Dany, Tyrion, and Jon) are off screen for a year. It is expensive and confusing to add additional characters like FAegon and Quentyn, especially since both are filler.

Why would they have to adapt Feast and Dance that way? That's a nonsensical argument. There are several sites that list the chronological order of chapters, they wouldn't even have to figure that out on their own. And since the story isn't finished, you can't really state that character "X" is filler as if it's a fact. 

[lancerman]

On ‎6‎/‎25‎/‎2016 at 8:30 AM, SerMixalot said:

Book Jon didn't let his strong feelings for Ygritte impact his actions at the Battle of Castle Black.  so yes Jon charging across the field to rescue Rickon is a change in character

And book Jon wanted the entire Night's Watch to commit treason almost instantly after reading the pink letter. So let's not ct like Jon is some cool hand luke character.