How Much Did GRRM tell D&D?

[tws1978]

8 minutes ago, Zombies That Were Promised said:

D&D were able to write creative filler scenes early on, like 1x05 Robert and Cersei, but they are both exhausted and over the series since S4.  Their main goal really was "to get to the Red Wedding because it was so shocking."  It just feels like the passion for a faithful adaptation, especially faithful to the characters but also the plot, is completely gone.  D&D are drained and the creative spark gone.  They probably wanted to stop but HBO was throwing enough money at them.

You can´t do a faithfull adaptation when the author itself has no idea what´s going to happen. Until the season 4 D&D did only bunch of minor changes. And even after that they dutifully followed most of the ADWD plots for the already established characters even when it led to more stalling and more separated sideplots. Can you imagine their frustration when they asked GRRM what´s the purpose of Aria in Braavos and he answered them he has yet to figure it out but she will eventually return to Westeros? Or Dany, the Dothraki and that whole Meereen war, beyond expensive to tape but with zero established enemies, zero interesting conflicts and zero effect on the main story? 

I´m sure if GRRM had the outlines of the future books ready they would follow them as long as it´s not some pointless stalling to realign the timelines or similar excuse. But that´s the problem because from the little we know most of the TWOW and the second dance of dragons is basically a pointless subplot which also kills most of the popular and established characters, features the worst of soap cliche ever and ultimately again postpones the main conflict into yet another book. And maybe it will be amazing to read and maybe nobody will mind but the show has a certain narrative and it can´t introduce a whole bunch of new unknown players when it is at the end of Act2 and everybody expect the big finale is about to happen. 

 

 

[Ser Quork]

11 minutes ago, RhaeBee said:

Why doesn't he? Rowling herself made that a condition when she sold Harry Potter and I doubt HBO would have denied Martin if he asked for the same. And having that kind of control makes a difference only on the faithfulness of the adaptation. It has no effect on how supportive you are of the screen version of your story and whether you write the source material or not. Just my opinion. 

I believe he said he didn't have the same bargaining power as she did at that time of signing up.

He clearly trusted them to adapt his work faithfully, and it certainly started out that way.  And, let's face facts, as a writer of screen plays himself, he's probably more understanding of adaptational choices made than many writers might be.

Where they starting diverging (and, imo certainly, disrespectfully so such as placing Sansa's in Jeyne Poole's place), and without the requisite editorial control, he may well be displeased.  (I happen to believe he is.)

 

[Zombies That Were Promised]

I disagree, AFFC/ADWD were definitely adapted poorly... several elements of the Northern story missing, Ellaria replaces Arianne, barebones Meereen, barebones Riverlands, The Vale MIA, Tyrion's travels were lackluster.  I will backtrack on using 'faithful' adaptation as indeed some of those things I just said were dull in the book.  It's their job as writers to make that material more interesting.  Tyrion's travels in S5... were still boring.

When they ran out of GRRM material, was truly their test as writers.  If they could not write well, they should have hired better writers who could. No dick jokes. No cartoon villains.  If not a faithful adaptation to the plot, make it an interesting adaptation that at LEAST stays faithful to the characters and who they are.

[Prince of the North]

2 minutes ago, Ser Quork said:

Where they starting diverging (and, imo certainly, disrespectfully so such as placing Sansa's in Jeyne Poole's place), and without the requisite editorial control, he may well be displeased.  (I happen to believe he is.)

 

Yep.  Some may believe it's just coincidence that Martin released "Mercy" just before some of its content was moved forward a couple of seasons in the show; he released "Alayne I" just before Sansa's storyline in the Vale was scrapped and basically replaced with Jeyne Poole's; and he released "Arrianne I" when the character Arrianne was going to be eliminated from the show...but I never will. 

And that's to say nothing of the things Martin has said at cons, in interviews, on his Not-A-Blog, etc.

[Lockjaw of House Boltagon]

22 minutes ago, Ser Biscuit said:

Nope, he sold them the rights to use the names, likeness, and locations of characters, Westeros itself as well as other continents of Planetos, and to adapt the storylines already written. Under no circumstance is he obligated to give them the ending to his books.

And you know this how? Have you read the contract or an interview with GRRM stating that's the case?

I'm seriously asking tho, because if true that would have been an incredibly stupid move by HBO. Who buys the rights to an unfinished series with no guarantee of getting the ending? 

[Zombies That Were Promised]

13 minutes ago, Ser Quork said:

 

Where they starting diverging (and, imo certainly, disrespectfully so such as placing Sansa's in Jeyne Poole's place), and without the requisite editorial control, he may well be displeased.  (I happen to believe he is.)

 

Even with the small changes in S4, I had faith in D&D going into season 5  but that... was just unforgivable.  I kept expecting a swerve until the credits rolled on 5x06, AS GOT IS KNOWN FOR, but s5-s6 have been sooo telegraphed.

They didn't know if they were including Dorne, they did, and then they made up their own plot 100%.  Dorne was nothing like the books.  I don't understand why?

[RhaenysBee]

1 minute ago, Ser Biscuit said:

Nope, he sold them the rights to use the names, likeness, and locations of characters, Westeros itself as well as other continents of Planetos, and to adapt the storylines already written. Under no circumstance is he obligated to give them the ending to his books.

J.K. Rowling also didn't have to worry about the movie director changing Hermione's name to "Jill", having her get raped, and then going on a killing spree in Hogwarts because of the wrongs done to her; Voldemort being written as a misunderstood man who's girlfriend didn't appreciate him enough; and Harry being a ladies man obsessed with power and world domination; and the story itself being about how killing people wih magic is fun and cool with no consequences.

For if the movie director and the writers made those unnecessary, perverse, and idiotic changes - she'd be plenty pissed off of what they'd done to her story and to her characters that she created with love. Lucky for her the movie director and those writers seemed to actually liked her books, wanted to do her characters justice, wanted to strongly and accurately portray the spirit behind them and didn't want to turn her story into something completely contrary to of what it was meant for. GRRM has the opposite - two show runners who despise what his story is trying to say and only want to know what he has planned so that they can spit on it in their very "creative" ways.

Because said movie director didn't have a gaping black hole in the place of Hermione's storyline after she left the Astronomy tower on a bright winter morning. The HP movies only turned Voldermort a skinny, deadly, whispering villain into a hugging, joke telling comic relief with a biceps. A bunch of characters were cut, some altered, characters were changed, storylines merged, love interests added, but nobody could hear Rowling and her associates bitching about it. Because the general message was the same as it is with Game of Thrones. 

Martin sold his story and put his signature on a contract. He signed up for whatever the show has done. And let's not act like Dan and Dave are two madmen who've been on a personal revenge spree against Martin and the whole reason HBO initiated a hundreds of millions of dollars worth project was for Dan and Dave to destroy Martin's story and life. Also poor man, I imagine it must be terrible to live out his days in welfare, have world fame and appreciation and sky rocketing book sales thanks to the master plan against his happiness.

Yes, the show makers screw up a lot and they are very liberal about the adaptation and they probably put business decisions before creative decisions. But that doesn't make them Scar, nor does it make Martin little puppy eyed Simba weeping over Mufasa's dead body. 

11 minutes ago, Prince of the North said:

So, are you saying you believe Martin has been criticizing GoT?  If so, I agree.  I do think he's been expressing his displeasure with it in a few ways over the years.  

But, as to the rest, I think you're making a couple of incorrect assumptions here.   For your "Step1: Finish Your Work" to make any difference the showrunners would have to be sticking more closely to the source material.  They haven't.  Not even when they had plenty of source material to work with.  For your "Step 2: Keep an Eye on the Production of the Adaptation" to make any difference you have to assume Martin could have secured more editorial control than he did.  And we simply don't know if he tried or not.  Maybe HBO doesn't like to give up control and they are pretty powerful in the industry, no?  Even back when Martin was still writing an episode each season I don't think the showrunners were writing around his episode so much as he had to make his episode work with theirs.  And I think, with the changes the showrunners kept making, it just became too difficult/frustrating for Martin to do this so he stepped away  

And I understand the desire to steel oneself for the possibility that Martin may never finish ASoIaF but, I'm an optimist, I believe he will 

I don't know what kind of bargaining power he had and what he thought the show would or would not do. I just think that it's insanely unfair to passive aggressive criticize something that's being made with your consent, based on your work, with your name, earning you a crap ton of money and even more fame and appreciation. 

As for the source material... 

The show has already had more plotlines than most shows do. Possibly more than an average viewer can comfortably follow along. The books have ten thousand plotlines many of which, in my humble opinion, are completely redudant and should have been edited out (none of my business, this is just a personal opinion). Nobody in their right mind can expect D&D to include ANOTHER Greyjoy brother, ANOTHER fat eunuch counselor, ANOTHER sell sword company, ANOTHER throne claimant while the main plot is movie nowhere. At least I wouldn't. They have to skim down the books majorly to get a story material that is possible to adapt and more details and more subplotlines are no help when they are trying to step forward and not sideways. 

and yes, I am fully aware that fewer dick jokes and fewer brothel sex scenes would have left room for more refined adaptations and that a proportion of the audience would have preferred that, including myself. I'm not saying they are doing a perfect job (neither is Martin), I'm just saying they are at least doing their job. And if I have to choose someone to rely on to get me to the end of this story, I'll pick D&D any day. 

 

[Ser Quork]

2 minutes ago, Zombies That Were Promised said:

Even with the small changes in S4, I had faith in D&D going into season 5  but that... was just unforgivable.  I kept expecting a swerve until the credits rolled on 5x06, AS GOT IS KNOWN FOR, but s5-s6 have been sooo telegraphed.

They didn't know if they were including Dorne, they did, and then they made up their own plot 100%.  Dorne was nothing like the books.  I don't understand why?

They think they're better storytellers than GRRM; they emphatically are not.

[Masha]

6 minutes ago, Ser Quork said:

They think they're better storytellers than GRRM; they emphatically are not.

They don't. You are putting your emotions as their motive.

They are doing the best they can because what they have is a huge plot hole from point A to point E, while missing B, C, and D. 

[Lockjaw of House Boltagon]

23 minutes ago, Zombies That Were Promised said:

I disagree, AFFC/ADWD were definitely adapted poorly... several elements of the Northern story missing, Ellaria replaces Arianne, barebones Meereen, barebones Riverlands, The Vale MIA, Tyrion's travels were lackluster.  I will backtrack on using 'faithful' adaptation as indeed some of those things I just said were dull in the book.  It's their job as writers to make that material more interesting.  Tyrion's travels in S5... were still boring.

So they're working with uninteresting material and somehow they're the bad guys, not the guy who wrote the uninteresting material in the first place? It is their job as writers to come up with something interesting, but it wasn't GRRM's job to write something interesting to begin with? 

14 minutes ago, RhaeBee said:

Because said movie director didn't have a gaping black hole in the place of Hermione's storyline after she left the Astronomy tower on a bright winter morning. The HP movies only turned Voldermort a skinny, deadly, whispering villain into a hugging, joke telling comic relief with a biceps. A bunch of characters were cut, some altered, characters were changed, storylines merged, love interests added, but nobody could hear Rowling and her associates bitching about it. Because the general message was the same as it is with Game of Thrones. 

Martin sold his story and put his signature on a contract. He signed up for whatever the show has done. And let's not act like Dan and Dave are two madmen who've been on a personal revenge spree against Martin and the whole reason HBO initiated a hundreds of millions of dollars worth project was for Dan and Dave to destroy Martin's story and life. Also poor man, I imagine it must be terrible to live out his days in welfare, have world fame and appreciation and sky rocketing book sales thanks to the master plan against his happiness.

Yes, the show makers screw up a lot and they are very liberal about the adaptation and they probably put business decisions before creative decisions. But that doesn't make them Scar, nor does it make Martin little puppy eyed Simba weeping over Mufasa's dead body. 

I don't know what kind of bargaining power he had and what he thought the show would or would not do. I just think that it's insanely unfair to passive aggressive criticize something that's being made with your consent, based on your work, with your name, earning you a crap ton of money and even more fame and appreciation. 

As for the source material... 

The show has already had more plotlines than most shows do. Possibly more than an average viewer can comfortably follow along. The books have ten thousand plotlines many of which, in my humble opinion, are completely redudant and should have been edited out (none of my business, this is just a personal opinion). Nobody in their right mind can expect D&D to include ANOTHER Greyjoy brother, ANOTHER fat eunuch counselor, ANOTHER sell sword company, ANOTHER throne claimant while the main plot is movie nowhere. At least I wouldn't. They have to skim down the books majorly to get a story material that is possible to adapt and more details and more subplotlines are no help when they are trying to step forward and not sideways. 

and yes, I am fully aware that fewer dick jokes and fewer brothel sex scenes would have left room for more refined adaptations and that a proportion of the audience would have preferred that, including myself. I'm not saying they are doing a perfect job (neither is Martin), I'm just saying they are at least doing their job. And if I have to choose someone to rely on to get me to the end of this story, I'll pick D&D any day. 

 

All of this. Agreed 100%.

 

[Prince of the North]

1 minute ago, RhaeBee said:

I don't know what kind of bargaining power he had and what he thought the show would or would not do. I just think that it's insanely unfair to passive aggressive criticize something that's being made with your consent, based on your work, with your name, earning you a crap ton of money and even more fame and appreciation.

As for the source material... 

The show has already had more plotlines than most shows do. Possibly more than an average viewer can comfortably follow along. The books have ten thousand plotlines many of which, in my humble opinion, are completely redudant and should have been edited out (none of my business, this is just a personal opinion). Nobody in their right mind can expect D&D to include ANOTHER Greyjoy brother, ANOTHER fat eunuch counselor, ANOTHER sell sword company, ANOTHER throne claimant while the main plot is movie nowhere. At least I wouldn't. They have to skim down the books majorly to get a story material that is possible to adapt and more details and more subplotlines are no help when they are trying to step forward and not sideways. 

and yes, I am fully aware that fewer dick jokes and fewer brothel sex scenes would have left room for more refined adaptations and that a proportion of the audience would have preferred that, including myself. I'm not saying they are doing a perfect job (neither is Martin), I'm just saying they are at least doing their job. And if I have to choose someone to rely on to get me to the end of this story, I'll pick D&D any day. 

 

Well, I think Martin is completely within his rights to criticize GoT because it has not been "adapted" so much as "butchered"

Also, as to the part I bolded above, I don't really get what you're trying to say.  Are you saying that the sheer size and complexity of ASoIaF has made it impossible for the showrunners to adapt?  If so, I don't believe doing a faithful adaptation would have been impossible.  I just think it's beyond the skill of these showrunners.  Also, no one made them include anything.  That has always been their decision and let's not forget that while they were saying they needed to eliminate some things for efficiency they were simultaneously adding their own completely unnecessary things that served to only take up precious screen time. 

You're right that the story is huge.  That's why the writers should have planned out the whole thing from beginning to end right at the beginning (and it's painfully obvious they did not).  That way they could eliminate/combine characters, settings, and story lines from the start.  I believe better writers could have "skimmed down the books", as you say, while still remaining far more faithful to the things that actually matter: characterization, internal consistency, and, yes, I'll say it: themes.

From the ending of your post I see that you're definitely not happy that Martin hasn't delivered the remaining books yet.  Now, that I can understand even though I don't believe he owes any of us anything more than he's already provided   

[Lockjaw of House Boltagon]

2 minutes ago, Prince of the North said:

That's why the writers should have planned out the whole thing from beginning to end right at the beginning (and it's painfully obvious they did not).  That way they could eliminate/combine characters, settings, and story lines from the start.

But that's the thing. They couldn't plan out the whole thing from beginning to end simply because they didn't have an end. The guy who's supposed to come up with the ending told them (and this was right before season 5, not like years before the pilot was shot) he's not even sure of where some of the characters are going. 

I mean B&W should be the ones who are pissed tbh. They have every right to be. GRRM was leading them on, telling them he had the whole thing planned out, everything is cool bruh, only to then say, "Oops, did I say I had the whole thing planned out? No, you misheard me. I said I have my whole house flanned out because I love flan so much."

[RhaenysBee]

12 minutes ago, Prince of the North said:

Well, I think Martin is completely within his rights to criticize GoT because it has not been "adapted" so much as "butchered"

Also, as to the part I bolded above, I don't really get what you're trying to say.  Are you saying that the sheer size and complexity of ASoIaF has made it impossible for the showrunners to adapt?  If so, I don't believe doing a faithful adaptation would have been impossible.  I just think it's beyond the skill of these showrunners.  Also, no one made them include anything.  That has always been their decision and let's not forget that while they were saying they needed to eliminate some things for efficiency they were simultaneously adding their own completely unnecessary things that served to only take up precious screen time. 

You're right that the story is huge.  That's why the writers should have planned out the whole thing from beginning to end right at the beginning (and it's painfully obvious they did not).  That way they could eliminate/combine characters, settings, and story lines from the start.  I believe better writers could have "skimmed down the books", as you say, while still remaining far more faithful to the things that actually matter: characterization, internal consistency, and, yes, I'll say it: themes.

From the ending of your post I see that you're definitely not happy that Martin hasn't delivered the remaining books yet.  Now, that I can understand even though I don't believe he owes any of us anything more than he's already provided   

Let's not argue about the words "adapt" and "butcher" now  

and yes, I'm saying that asoiaf is impossible (for anybody) to adapt because of its complexity and vastness. Let's disagree on that. And I'm also saying that it was a good idea to slim down the plot (even if they could have gone with a richer version, because, as I said before, in my humble opinion, at least one third if not more of the books could have been edited out). I do agree that they could have been more faithful to the books. But that's pretty much true for every adaptation in the world. 

In most cases, I didn't mind the changes the decided to make. Even in the most controversial of cases, I was totally fine with their decision (namely Sansa taking Jeyne's place). In a couple cases, I wished they'd stuck with the books (Locke... Talisa... ). And in a couple cases I loved their changes (Drogo in the House of the Undying instead of R+L stuff). 

What I loath about the show is the complete lack of sense. Change whatever you want, man, but be consistent to yourself and make sense. Season 6 Episode 7-8 Arya is unforgivable. And I do agree with you about the writing and the characterization. Those could be better if only they put more thought into it and took the audience a little more seriously. 

Indeed, the observation is correct. I am way more mad at Martin for not (ever?) finishing the books than I am at D&D for screwing up. This wasn't always like this, it had once been the opposite. It turned around somewhere before season 5. But regardless of this, I always thought D&D get far more hate than they deserve. 

[thehandwipes]

1 hour ago, RhaeBee said:

Yes, the show makers screw up a lot and they are very liberal about the adaptation and they probably put business decisions before creative decisions. But that doesn't make them Scar, nor does it make Martin little puppy eyed Simba weeping over Mufasa's dead body. 

Of course not, I'm Simba  weeping over the adaption that might have been.  D&D are still Scar. 

Now I understand that adapting a work the sizr of ASOIAF is a massive challenge (or would be if they tried), but none of the defenses of D&D put forth so far explains why I watched a man stick his finger in another man's (non-consenting) asshole.  Or why it happened again several days later on Game of Thrones.

 

[Prince of the North]

1 hour ago, Lyin' Ned said:

But that's the thing. They couldn't plan out the whole thing from beginning to end simply because they didn't have an end. The guy who's supposed to come up with the ending told them (and this was right before season 5, not like years before the pilot was shot) he's not even sure of where some of the characters are going. 

I mean B&W should be the ones who are pissed tbh. They have every right to be. GRRM was leading them on, telling them he had the whole thing planned out, everything is cool bruh, only to then say, "Oops, did I say I had the whole thing planned out? No, you misheard me. I said I have my whole house flanned out because I love flan so much."

This isn't true at all.  They most certainly could have written a much better, more streamlined, more coherent story through the end of the source material.  And then, if they were actually competent writers (and hadn't made such boneheaded story changes), take the story to its end with consultation with Martin.  Maybe I'm wrong about this but it certainly doesn't seem as if the showrunners have consulted with Martin very much at all.  I mean, we hear quite a bit about that one meeting...but have there been others?  Do the showrunners pick up the phone and speed dial Martin from time to time?  I haven't heard anything of the sort.  Have you?  

Just out of curiosity, which major characters is Martin still not sure where they're going yet?  I'd love to know.

Also, what happened to all that talk before this season that the show was gonna be so great because it's finally free of that pesky, inferior source material?  You'd think it would just be stellar now...but it's not.  

[Prince of the North]

1 hour ago, RhaeBee said:

Let's not argue about the words "adapt" and "butcher" now  

and yes, I'm saying that asoiaf is impossible (for anybody) to adapt because of its complexity and vastness. Let's disagree on that. And I'm also saying that it was a good idea to slim down the plot (even if they could have gone with a richer version, because, as I said before, in my humble opinion, at least one third if not more of the books could have been edited out). I do agree that they could have been more faithful to the books. But that's pretty much true for every adaptation in the world. 

In most cases, I didn't mind the changes the decided to make. Even in the most controversial of cases, I was totally fine with their decision (namely Sansa taking Jeyne's place). In a couple cases, I wished they'd stuck with the books (Locke... Talisa... ). And in a couple cases I loved their changes (Drogo in the House of the Undying instead of R+L stuff). 

What I loath about the show is the complete lack of sense. Change whatever you want, man, but be consistent to yourself and make sense. Season 6 Episode 7-8 Arya is unforgivable. And I do agree with you about the writing and the characterization. Those could be better if only they put more thought into it and took the audience a little more seriously. 

Indeed, the observation is correct. I am way more mad at Martin for not (ever?) finishing the books than I am at D&D for screwing up. This wasn't always like this, it had once been the opposite. It turned around somewhere before season 5. But regardless of this, I always thought D&D get far more hate than they deserve. 

Accept for a little bit in your last paragraph, I'm quite in agreement with you.  Especially, about how it's not necessarily a bad thing to make changes but those changes should make sense and, above all, remain consistent with in the story.  I think a huge contributor to the nonsense that the show has become is the showrunners making story changes while still trying to hit the "main" plot points in the books.  The problem is that many of their changes made still including those "main" plot points illogical or, at least, forced, etc.  That doesn't seem like a good plan for telling a story to me    

[Lockjaw of House Boltagon]

2 minutes ago, Prince of the North said:

This isn't true at all.  They most certainly could have written a much better, more streamlined, more coherent story through the end of the source material.  And then, if they were actually competent writers (and hadn't made such boneheaded story changes), take the story to its end with consultation with Martin.  Maybe I'm wrong about this but it certainly doesn't seem as if the showrunners have consulted with Martin very much at all.  I mean, we hear quite a bit about that one meeting...but have there been others?  Do the showrunners pick up the phone and speed dial Martin from time to time?  I haven't heard anything of the sort.  Have you?  

Just out of curiosity, which major characters is Martin still not sure where they're going yet?  I'd love to know.

Also, what happened to all that talk before this season that the show was gonna be so great because it's finally free of that pesky, inferior source material?  You'd think it would just be stellar now...but it's not.  

How the hell would I know? That's what Weiss said tho, and unlike you and me, he was at that meeting with Martin. For all we know maybe it's Martin the one who's been uncooperative, maybe he's been reluctant to share the ending of the books for whatever reason. But of course people are jumping into conclusions and ready to crucify B&W for imaginary crimes. 

And I personally never said anything about this season being stellar for overtaking the books. I actually predicted it would be a trainwreck precisely because they ran out of material. And whose fault is that? 

[lancerman]

3 hours ago, Zombies That Were Promised said:

I disagree, AFFC/ADWD were definitely adapted poorly... several elements of the Northern story missing, Ellaria replaces Arianne, barebones Meereen, barebones Riverlands, The Vale MIA, Tyrion's travels were lackluster.  I will backtrack on using 'faithful' adaptation as indeed some of those things I just said were dull in the book.  It's their job as writers to make that material more interesting.  Tyrion's travels in S5... were still boring.

When they ran out of GRRM material, was truly their test as writers.  If they could not write well, they should have hired better writers who could. No dick jokes. No cartoon villains.  If not a faithful adaptation to the plot, make it an interesting adaptation that at LEAST stays faithful to the characters and who they are.

It would be one thing if they started out by writing there own story and they couldn't finish it. It would be one thing if early on they made a conscious decision that he wasn't going to finish years in advance and plotted out their own ending.

What really happened was they started telling George's story, George couldn't finish his story after years of telling people not to worry, and they had to have a meeting for him to give some type of outline so they could finish it as best they could. That's a shit position to be in for any writer.

It's hard for me to give them a hard time when the guy who actually came up with the material, by his own admission, got stuck, took 10 years to finish one book that he split into two books AND 5 years later is still working on getting the follow up out. It's not like HBO is going to say to the showrunners "sure take an extra 5 years to finish up this season", "sure we'll let you make this season 20 episodes over several years".

And I'm not saying this to come down hard on GRRM. But it's kind of weird that we all give the guy whose timetable for writing the material is however long he feels like, and can structure how he writes and plots it per book to his own whims as long as it fits in a single book, who is himself struggling to finish it. But then we come down hard on the guys who are on a strict deadline to produce 10 hours of television every year, including the writing and the production aspects, and the organizing etc. Who don't have the ability to decide they are going to hold off a few years because they changed their mind on a timeline or got stuck in some Meerenese knot.

I mean it's really weird that the guys with the harder task and the greater demands are the ones getting ridiculed by a small segment of fans. Especially since the person who put them in that position was the guy who has virtually no constraints and doesn't have to realize a television show off what he writes.

 

[lancerman]

 

3 hours ago, Prince of the North said:

Well, I think Martin is completely within his rights to criticize GoT because it has not been "adapted" so much as "butchered"

 

You know if he finished his story and they decided to change things around just for the sake of it, then I might agree with you. But no. He saw money. He sold the rights to the book. Got a bunch people to invest their lives into adapting it. 6 years later and didn't have new material to be released. Left everybody high and dry. Then they were forced to fill in his gaps.

He can criticize them if he wants. But they started out wanting to adapt his show and he's the one who failed to give them material to adapt.

 

[Prince of the North]

1 hour ago, Lyin' Ned said:

How the hell would I know? That's what Weiss said tho, and unlike you and me, he was at that meeting with Martin. For all we know maybe it's Martin the one who's been uncooperative, maybe he's been reluctant to share the ending of the books for whatever reason. But of course people are jumping into conclusions and ready to crucify B&W for imaginary crimes. 

And I personally never said anything about this season being stellar for overtaking the books. I actually predicted it would be a trainwreck precisely because they ran out of material. And whose fault is that? 

I didn't mean to imply you said this season was going to be stellar.  I was talking more generally.  But that talk was pretty rampant even in the media leading up to this season.

And, really, I don't know that it's really anyone's "fault" that the show ran out of source material.  I don't think Martin promised to have the books done.  I think he meant to, etc. but the showrunners and HBO always knew they could surpass the books.  So, my position will always be that the showrunners could have done themselves many favors by streamlining the story more from the very beginning and adhering closer to the source material much more than they did.