How Much Did GRRM tell D&D?

[Ser Gareth]

6 hours ago, marsyao said:

I doubt deeply that GRRM has anythinbg to do so call "Hodor bomb" that smell like another invention of D&D only, based on what I saw in the season six, I now blieve GRRM actually told D&D very little about his plan of the future novels

It's more worrying than that.  GRRM probably didn't give them any detail because he doesn't know himself.  And probably still doesn't.

But by revealing the ending and some major plot points what GRRM has revealed to HBO are which sub plots aren't key to the overall outcome of the story.  That had allowed HBO to choose what to cut out and change in the story.

Naturally both GRRM & HBO will continue to toe the party line that both stories are different. It's totally in their financial self interests to do so whether it's true or not.

And it may be not.  GRRM has spent years setting this up and reveals like Hodor's name will hurt a lot.  So I still think the delay in TWOW now is because he is changing story arcs to make them more unique.  He may even come up with a different explanation of Hodor now to ensure it isn't Hold the Door anymore.

I also personally think there is a strong possibility that GRRM has stopped working on the novels all together and is playing a waiting game for the show to finish in 2017/18.  Once he knows what the show has revealed he can then begin again ensuring that no plot points remain the same.  I think he may even throw in a curve ball and change Jon's mother from who he originally intended.....

[Sir Matthis Light]

Wait so George told them who would sit the Iron Throne in the end??? That means there will be an IT in the end, thus the United 7K goes on. Cool. I hope its Jon and Dany on the Throne together.

( I just realized their no reall romance by DoD, is their?? )

[Tianzi]

3 hours ago, Ser Gareth said:

I also personally think there is a strong possibility that GRRM has stopped working on the novels all together and is playing a waiting game for the show to finish in 2017/18.  Once he knows what the show has revealed he can then begin again ensuring that no plot points remain the same.  I think he may even throw in a curve ball and change Jon's mother from who he originally intended.....

On one hand, it would be nice to get something completely different than what we are watching right now... On the other, GRRM is almost seventy and I think he realizes that. I just hope he deliberately feeds him his unused ideas and has been secretly goind a completely different route since he realized he won't make it in time with the books.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

3 hours ago, Ser Gareth said:

It's more worrying than that.  GRRM probably didn't give them any detail because he doesn't know himself.  And probably still doesn't.

But by revealing the ending and some major plot points what GRRM has revealed to HBO are which sub plots aren't key to the overall outcome of the story.  That had allowed HBO to choose what to cut out and change in the story.

Naturally both GRRM & HBO will continue to toe the party line that both stories are different. It's totally in their financial self interests to do so whether it's true or not.

And it may be not.  GRRM has spent years setting this up and reveals like Hodor's name will hurt a lot.  So I still think the delay in TWOW now is because he is changing story arcs to make them more unique.  He may even come up with a different explanation of Hodor now to ensure it isn't Hold the Door anymore.

I also personally think there is a strong possibility that GRRM has stopped working on the novels all together and is playing a waiting game for the show to finish in 2017/18.  Once he knows what the show has revealed he can then begin again ensuring that no plot points remain the same.  I think he may even throw in a curve ball and change Jon's mother from who he originally intended.....

I do feel that GRRM doesn't want his opus ruined by the show getting their first. He probably realised this was going to happen a long time ago, and has been desperately trying to find an alternative way of getting to his ending so that he can be different to the show. Whether that is even possible and have it make sense is another matter. Clearly there are a great many things he can't change as it has to tie into whats already been written.

Like I don't think there is any possibility that Hodor doesn't mean 'Hold the Door', and I think its very likely the cause of it is Bran going back into the past, and Hodor having to actually hold a door. In fact the situation could actually be very similar, with only the timing being different.

Martins an old guy now, lets be honest, there isn't a great deal of time for him to get these books out. If he doesn't manage it soon then its not going to happen. You could be right that he will want to write under less pressure, after the show is finished, where he can go away in peace and not worry so much. 

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

I do remember D&D saying they were in a hotel room with Martin when he told them about these plot points, I think. Little snippets like that do make me think that Martin has been far from forthcoming with his information. That there wasn't some great handover of work to the producers is worrying, that they have to be trying to grab what they can from him in hotel rooms is almost terrifying.

[Dragon in the North]

18 hours ago, marsyao said:

I doubt deeply that GRRM has anythinbg to do so call "Hodor bomb" that smell like another invention of D&D only, based on what I saw in the season six, I now blieve GRRM actually told D&D very little about his plan of the future novels

D&D actually confirmed that Martin told them about Hold the Door.

[BalerionTheCat]

It is not much the question of how much GRRM told them. Rather how much D&D will keep. They changed a lot of things, all Dorne, Sansa, Stoneheart, Stannis, Mance... Of course they will spoil some big stuff, like Jon's resurrection. And I suppose the final winner, if there is one, will be the same. And GRRM may introduce some new little twists, he didn't think about before. But it will not be to make his story different, certainly not worse.

If "Hold the Door" is the concept of "holy sh. moment" by D&D, and there is only one like that remaining, then they will not keep much from ASoIaF.

[lancerman]

7 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

It is not much the question of how much GRRM told them. Rather how much D&D will keep. They changed a lot of things, all Dorne, Sansa, Stoneheart, Stannis, Mance... Of course they will spoil some big stuff, like Jon's resurrection. And I suppose the final winner, if there is one, will be the same. And GRRM may introduce some new little twists, he didn't think about before. But it will not be to make his story different, certainly not worse.

If "Hold the Door" is the concept of "holy sh. moment" by D&D, and there is only one like that remaining, then they will not keep much from ASoIaF.

It's more of a question of how many liberties they take. The last thing we heard about Stannis is that Ramsay claimed he beat him, which he did in the show. It's probably more complicated and the burning of Shireen probably happen differently. But based off what we have, I think end result is a likely outcome and sets the stage for a similar Jon vs Ramsay showdown.

Stoneheart most notably screwed up Jamie and Brienne's story, so they've  been essentially on filler plots. And now all of sudden they are heading to the Riverlands. So to me that just says that LSH isn't going to be as consequential. Same with Dorne, to me that just means Aegon isn't terribly important but Dorne needs a reason to militarize against the Lannisters, so they came up with a new reason.

I really think it's just going to be like most adaptations where if you gave cliff notes of both they would be very similar, and the details will vary (IE the pink letter was after Jon's death)

[lancerman]

8 hours ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

I do remember D&D saying they were in a hotel room with Martin when he told them about these plot points, I think. Little snippets like that do make me think that Martin has been far from forthcoming with his information. That there wasn't some great handover of work to the producers is worrying, that they have to be trying to grab what they can from him in hotel rooms is almost terrifying.

He is contractually obligated to give them the story or as much of it he can supply. He sold the right for a lot of money. It's just far more likely that GRRM isn't lying when he says he's a gardner, and rights it as it comes. He probably knows the general ending and directions to get there, but not the specfics or order.

[Barbossa]

@ OP: about 3 fiddy.

[BalerionTheCat]

13 minutes ago, lancerman said:

It's more of a question of how many liberties they take. The last thing we heard about Stannis is that Ramsay claimed he beat him, which he did in the show. It's probably more complicated and the burning of Shireen probably happen differently. But based off what we have, I think end result is a likely outcome and sets the stage for a similar Jon vs Ramsay showdown.

Stoneheart most notably screwed up Jamie and Brienne's story, so they've  been essentially on filler plots. And now all of sudden they are heading to the Riverlands. So to me that just says that LSH isn't going to be as consequential. Same with Dorne, to me that just means Aegon isn't terribly important but Dorne needs a reason to militarize against the Lannisters, so they came up with a new reason.

I really think it's just going to be like most adaptations where if you gave cliff notes of both they would be very similar, and the details will vary (IE the pink letter was after Jon's death)

Yes, I've heard these arguments, the final result is the same, this one has been removed because he was not that much important, Dorne is a filler nobody care, and so on. The bottom line is: they didn't keep stuff, IMHO, some of it essential. And they added tons of their own garbage.

12 minutes ago, lancerman said:

He is contractually obligated to give them the story or as much of it he can supply. He sold the right for a lot of money. It's just far more likely that GRRM isn't lying when he says he's a gardner, and rights it as it comes. He probably knows the general ending and directions to get there, but not the specfics or order.

Obviously he can and did change stuff. If he could not not, he would not be the author anymore.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

28 minutes ago, lancerman said:

It's more of a question of how many liberties they take. The last thing we heard about Stannis is that Ramsay claimed he beat him, which he did in the show. It's probably more complicated and the burning of Shireen probably happen differently. But based off what we have, I think end result is a likely outcome and sets the stage for a similar Jon vs Ramsay showdown.

Stoneheart most notably screwed up Jamie and Brienne's story, so they've  been essentially on filler plots. And now all of sudden they are heading to the Riverlands. So to me that just says that LSH isn't going to be as consequential. Same with Dorne, to me that just means Aegon isn't terribly important but Dorne needs a reason to militarize against the Lannisters, so they came up with a new reason.

I really think it's just going to be like most adaptations where if you gave cliff notes of both they would be very similar, and the details will vary (IE the pink letter was after Jon's death)

A pretty sensible view, I agree.

[Ssangkall]

Why does he need to be different from the show.  Financially, he made the biggest upgrade in his life, and people will buy the books regardless for the smaller/converged plotpoints HBO went with.  Just to be different?  I'm not in his shoes, so I wouldn't know, but we really need to see the next book to get an idea on how deeply he feels about being different... To just be different

[Ser Gareth]

5 hours ago, lancerman said:

He is contractually obligated to give them the story or as much of it he can supply. He sold the right for a lot of money. It's just far more likely that GRRM isn't lying when he says he's a gardner, and rights it as it comes. He probably knows the general ending and directions to get there, but not the specfics or order.

The amount of foreshadowing in the story suggests otherwise.   At least for the major players.

[lancerman]

1 minute ago, Ser Gareth said:

The amount of foreshadowing in the story suggests otherwise.   At least for the major players.

Specifics was the key word.

[Ser Biscuit]

23 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

It is not much the question of how much GRRM told them. Rather how much D&D will keep. They changed a lot of things, all Dorne, Sansa, Stoneheart, Stannis, Mance...

..Littlefinger, Cersei, Jamie, Tyrion, Renly, Tommen, all of Quarth, all of the HOTU prophecies, Podrick, Shae, "Talisa", Jorah, Daario, Brienne, Varys, every direwolf, Gentry, the size of Westeros itself, Tormund, Val, Mance's kid, the entire Wildling culture in general, Ramsey, Mellisandra, Davos, Selyce, Jaqen, Barristan, "Three Eyed Raven", the Children of the Forrest, Sam, all of the Iron Islands, "Yara", Euron, the Kingsmoot, all of the HOBW, Maggie the Frog and her prophecy, every important fight in the books, every important sword in the books, all Martells, all Tyrells, the High Septon, the Faith Militant in general, all Kingsguard who ever lived and ever will live, the Walk of Shame, the Tower of Joy, Ned Stark's memory, Benjen, all of the Vale, all of Meereen, all of Vaes Dothrak, all Northern Houses motivations, the entire North storyline, the Others..

Did I leave off anybody/thing that they have changed completely to something unrecognizable from their book counterparts? I may have to do a memory refresher on the wiki just in case.

Soon to come in joining the list in a GoT future near you: The trials in KL, Sandor, Bronn, Bran, Meera, Gilly, Jon, Dany, Theon, the Brotherhood Without Banners, Arya, Sweet Robin, the Mad King's memory, the Tower of Joy's ending, the Riverlands in general, all of House Tully, all the Dothraki in general, all of Volantis, all of Essos in general, all of KL in general..

[Anythingatall]

5 hours ago, Ser Biscuit said:

Littlefinger, Cersei, Jamie, Tyrion, Renly, Catelyn, all of Quarth, all of the HOTU prophecies, Podrick, Shae, "Talisa", Jorah, Daario, Brienne, Varys, every direwolf, Gentry, the size of Westeros itself, Tormund, the entire Wildling culture in general, Ramsey, Mellisandra, Davos, Selyce, Jaqen, Barristan, "Three Eyed Raven", the Children of the Forrest, Sam, all of the Iron Islands, Missandei, Grey Worm, "Yara", Euron, the Kingsmoot, all of the HOBW, Maggie the Frog and her prophecy, every important fight in the books, every important sword in the books, all Martells, all Tyrells, the High Septon, the Faith Militant in general, all Kingsguard men who ever lived and ever will live, the Walk of Shame, the Tower of Joy, Ned Stark's memory, Benjen, all of the Vale, all of Meereen, all of Vaes Dothrak, all Northern Houses motivations, the entire North storyline, the Others..

Did I leave off anybody/thing that they have changed completely to something unrecognizable from their book counterparts? I may have to do a memory refresher on the wiki just in case.

Soon to come in joining the list in a GoT future near you: The trials in KL, Sandor, Bronn, Bran, Meera, Gilly, Jon, Dany, Theon, the Brotherhood Without Banners, Arya, Sweet Robin, the Mad King's memory, the Tower of Joy's ending, the Riverlands in general, all of House Tully, all the Dothraki in general, all of Volantis, all of Essos in general, all of KL in general..

That's just blatantly false.  I am genuinely baffled by some of your examples on both lists. 

[Ser Biscuit]

2 hours ago, Anythingatall said:

That's just blatantly false.  I am genuinely baffled by some of your examples on both lists. 

You're right, I see that Balerionthecat already listed Stoneheart in there. My bad. I also forgot Tommen. I've edited him in. The list of already changed looks good otherwise although maybe I should get rid of Grey Worm and Missandei since I already have 'all of Meereen" listed and their ridiculous "romance/passion" for each other is part of that joke of a storyline. Did you have some more? It only took me about a minute to think of all those screwups. If I checked the wiki and refreshed my memory I could probably write another paragraph's worth.

Soon-to-be-changed as of this season looks complete but that's only based upon what may come in the rest of season 6 if the trailers are any indication. That list could become a monster by itself after season 7.

[Aemon Targaryen]

GRRM has told DD everything critical.

I think the end of Hold the Door foreshadows certain key aspects of the end of ASOIAF.

There are key things about the 3ER-Bran relationship we (and Bran) learn in that episode:

1. Bran is unique compared to 3ER (and previous 3ER's) in being able to affect the past.

- this is seen in how shocked 3ER is when Bran communicates with young Ned at ToJ. 3ER knows how powerful Bran well before then, yet he is surprised.

2. The "how Wyllis becomes Hodor" seen is the final thing Bran learns from 3ER, so it's likely that that scene is the essence of what 3ER wants to teach Bran - and what Bran learns is that while he can affect the past, he cannot change the past: he can only create what it always was, including tragically with Hodor.

3.  There are several key inferences about Bran's powers that can be drawn from the scene:

(i) Bran doesn't need the weirnet to have visions, unlike 3ER.  Meera disengages him from the weirnet, but he remains in the Winterfell vision. 

(ii) It is the fact that Bran remains in the vision even though disengaged from the weirnet that prevents him from waking up in the cave and warging into Hodor.  It is emphasised that Bran is disengaged, in the sled, but Bran is too far in the vision to wake up - and Hodor is still very much an unwarged Hodor.

(iii) At that critical point, Meera yells at Bran (in the cave) to "wake up or we're all going to die - warg into Hodor now", and Bran hears that even within the Winterfell vision.

(iv) Bran looks at Wyllis, and senses in his face that there is something terrible about warging into past Wyllis within the vision - because he would not be warging into "Hodor", but rather warging into "Wyllis" in the past.

(v) 3ER (in the Winterfell) vision clearly hears Meera as well, as he says to Bran "Listen to your friend, Brandon" (incidentally, it seems significant that 3ER refers to Bran as 'Brandon' - ie that he affects at least one of the previous historical Brandons through his visions)

(vi) Bran (in the Winterfell vision) hears Hodor (in the cave, scared) while looking at Wyllis.

(vii) At that point, the shot returns to Hodor in the cave and he is warged into - his eyes scale over (and then clear) . 

(viii) At that point, both Bran and 3ER are still within the vision.

(ix) However, Hodor is clearly under external control - he gets down to work without fear and starts dragging Bran - and we see that both Bran and 3ER (in the cave) are both still in the vision.

(x) With NK before 3ER in the cave (and 3ER still in the vision), 3ER in the Winterfell vision says to Bran "The time has come".  This indicates that 3ER can perceive at least partly both realms at the same time.

(xi) 3ER then says to Bran "leave me", Bran looks concerned, NK scythes, 3ER turns into black ribbon in the Winterfell vision.

(xii) Hodor continues the escape, Bran still inside the vision.  This makes it clear, in retrospect, that in (vii) above it wasn't 3ER who warged into Hodor, it was Bran (and perhaps that this is beyond 3ER's powers).  So Bran is both inside the Winterfell vision and has warged into Hodor in the cave.

(xiii) Note at this point that Wyllis in the Winterfell vision has not yet said anything about Hodor or Hold the Door.

(xiv) Hodor in cave arrives at door, busts it open, then closes it as Meera takes Bran (still in vision). Meera says "Hold the Door".

(xv) Bran in vision turns to Wyllis, while hearing Meera yell "Hold the door".  Bran doesn't do anything in the Winterfell vision except look at Wyllis, and Wyllis looks at him.  It appears that because Bran is in the Winterfell vision and warging into Hodor, that Wyllis, at that moment in the past, experiences what Hodor is experiencing via the medium of Bran's split consciousness inside the Winterfell vision.

(xvi) Wyllis is warged into, but it does not seem an active decision by Bran, it seems more a consequence of Bran still being in the Winterfell vision and causing Wyllis to experience the warged into Hodor.

In summary, Wyllis is turned into Hodor because Bran didn't wake up and there was no time. 

I don't think Bran ever decided to (or ever did) warg into Wyllis.  Wyllis was turned into Hodor by virtue of the fact that Bran was at Winterfell in his vision, due to the fact that 3ER brought him there.

I think people have forgotten that when warged into the other person is still there.  So Hodor/Bran were together holding the door but by Bran's consciousness being split, Hodor's consciousness was also split, but not being a greenseer it turned Wyllis into Hodor.

From 3ER's perspective it both effected their escape and taught Bran both that he can change the past, but the way in which he is to do so is already pre-ordained.  He will always already have done it, but he (and we) won't realise that he has until we see it.

I think how the above happened is critical and GRRM explained it to them.  Not that the cave scene happens that way in the books, but the mechanism of Bran's powers must be the same, because it is key to the endgame.

From there arises many possibilities, perhaps that Bran(don) both built the Wall and will destroy it (due to his being marked).

[BalerionTheCat]

2 hours ago, Ser Biscuit said:

You're right, I see that Balerionthecat already listed Stoneheart in there. My bad. I also forgot Tommen. I've edited him in. The list of already changed looks good otherwise although maybe I should get rid of Grey Worm and Missandei since I already have 'all of Meereen" listed and their ridiculous "romance/passion" for each other is part of that joke of a storyline. Did you have some more? It only took me about a minute to think of all those screwups. If I checked the wiki and refreshed my memory I could probably write another paragraph's worth.

Soon-to-be-changed as of this season looks complete but that's only based upon what may come in the rest of season 6 if the trailers are any indication. That list could become a monster by itself after season 7.

I think you forgot Val, and Mance's child in your long list. Some will disagree about how much important Val is. But she is dear to me. And if Jon is ever king, she will be his queen.