How Much Did GRRM tell D&D?

[lancerman]

4 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

So, because they used one loyal house in the show with the Stark kids, but actually added more against the Stark kids, some even inside Winterfell itself, that is the same idea? I'm not asking for a page by page re-do on screen. I am talking general theme. I tend to picture it more of balancing a scale.

Even in the books there are houses coming out of the literal woods to help the Starks. Even the Karstarks are failing in their "plot against" the Starks.

 

And every house isn't with the Starks. So now we are talking about an arbitrary number of lords supporting the Starks. And even at that, they really aren't even supporting the Starks because no Starks are fighting.

[Ser Biscuit]

Theon is the heir of a King, stripped of his inheritance as boy because of war and placed in a foreign land. Over time he forgets his homeland and what it means to be Ironborn, and tries to regain it only to fall worse than ever, this time being stripped of his very name by the torture and imprisonment of Ramsey. Through the suffering of Jeyne, a lowborn who herself is in the midst of an identity crisis, Theon discovers what was lost within him and remembers his name, saving himself through saving her. But now that he has reclaimed his name he must return home to take what was stripped of him and reclaim his father's throne.

Sansa is the prized highborn daughter of a famous lord, a beauty for all ages and the epitome of a lady. What she felt would be a life of chivalry and romance turned into the opposite when her father was killed before her eyes and she was taken captive by a jealous evil Queen. Surviving her imprisonment by her courtesy and charm, she escapes and forced into hiding; being trained in the arts of guile, manipulation, seduction by the very man who secretly had her father killed and wishes to have her for himself. To take down her father's killer she must grow from apprentice to master, becoming the ultimate player of "the game".

Thematically these characters have nothing in common. It's oil and water. But only the likes of Dumb and Dumber would mix oil and water together and try to make a salad with it. They don't care about themes since as they put it, "themes are for eight grade book reports." However if those themes had rape, dick jokes, and murder in it I bet they would be all over those.

GRRM's type of characterization and themes are too complicated for them. It requires thoughtful planning, establishes character boundaries, and maintains each character's integrity throughout the progression of the story. It doesn't have the theme, characterization, and plot of a Cinemax softcore movie, which is more up D&D's speed.

[StepStark]

2 hours ago, lancerman said:

Like nothing thematically changed besides who the character was. But Sansa's rape is used as a rallying point against the show. When really even if you kept everything as is, the same probably remains.

I'm pretty certain you don't know what you're talking about. Can you please explain what is the theme of Sansa's rape in the show? I'm asking because you're doing two things here: you're not getting the theme of the corresponding storyline in the books, and you're refusing to realize that Sansa's rape in the show doesn't have any theme whatsoever. Feel free to prove me wrong.

[Kusanagi]

7 hours ago, lancerman said:

Even you bringing up that she was an enemy of the state, was precisely the reason LF brought her there in the first place.

LOL

Why? Screw reasons, that's why!

Just like Zack Snyder said Nolan's Batman wasn't dark enough, if it was up to him he would have Batman raped in prison. Why? screw reasons, that's why!

[DMC]

1 hour ago, Ser Biscuit said:

Theon is the heir of a King, stripped of his inheritance as boy because of war and placed in a foreign land. Over time he forgets his homeland and what it means to be Ironborn, and tries to regain it only to fall worse than ever, this time being stripped of his very name by the torture and imprisonment of Ramsey. Through the suffering of Jeyne, a lowborn who herself is in the midst of an identity crisis, Theon discovers what was lost within him and remembers his name, saving himself through saving her. But now that he has reclaimed his name he must return home to take what was stripped of him and reclaim his father's throne.

Sansa is the prized highborn daughter of a famous lord, a beauty for all ages and the epitome of a lady. What she felt would be a life of chivalry and romance turned into the opposite when her father was killed before her eyes and she was taken captive by a jealous evil Queen. Surviving her imprisonment by her courtesy and charm, she escapes and forced into hiding; being trained in the arts of guile, manipulation, seduction by the very man who secretly had her father killed and wishes to have her for himself. To take down her father's killer she must grow from apprentice to master, becoming the ultimate player of "the game".

Thematically these characters have nothing in common. It's oil and water. But only the likes of Dumb and Dumber would mix oil and water together and try to make a salad with it. They don't care about themes since as they put it, "themes are for eight grade book reports." However if those themes had rape, dick jokes, and murder in it I bet they would be all over those.

GRRM's type of characterization and themes are too complicated for them. It requires thoughtful planning, establishes character boundaries, and maintains each character's integrity throughout the progression of the story. It doesn't have the theme, characterization, and plot of a Cinemax softcore movie, which is more up D&D's speed.

I'm sorry, but what?  I'm pretty much done with arguing the false dichotomy between the show and the books, but it's posts like this that piss me off.  There's nothing wrong with the concept of putting Theon and Sansa together and denigrating merging the two to a Cinemax porn is unfounded hyperbole.  The problem was the execution.  Yes, the motives of both LF and Sansa IRT marrying Ramsay made - and still make - no sense whatsoever.  It was indeed "totes terrible" - if you want to ridicule that, fine.

But to wax poetic about the "characterization" of Sansa being fundamentally opposed to that of Theon is equally ridiculous.  "Thematically," they actually have much in common - both have identity crises in terms of which family to remain loyal to, and both regret their decision.  Both have to overcome some type of Stockholm syndrome which still have reverberations to this day.  I found their reconciliation and farewell in the show actually quite touching for just that reason. 

Is it, or will it, be nearly as good as what the books have and will produce?  Nah, Theon's chapters in ADWD are quite possibly my favorite aspect of the entire series.  But placing it at porn levels only demonstrates you need to watch better porn.

[kissdbyfire]

9 hours ago, lancerman said:

Because everything you mentioned just quite frankly isn't compelling. Thematically inconsistent? The last time we saw Sansa before she went to Winterfell she was tricked into lying for LF after he framed her for murder and was acting how he wanted her to act. So he got her to go to Winterfell under false pretenses he had no intentions of living up to. LF's a liar. The first thing he did when he brought Sansa to the North was betray her so he could play both sides of the board.

Theon had the same arc. It made no difference who the girl was for him because he still had the same response in the end where he watched a girl being tortured by Ramsay and then he redeemed himself.

Even you bringing up that she was an enemy of the state, was precisely the reason LF brought her there in the first place.

I would be more receptive to it if every time I heard these arguments they didn't either come off as massive projections based on things that were never outright laid out in the show, were criticisms that almost relied on certain parts of the plot being willfully ignored so that the person presenting the argument, or worse were just so shallow they it doesn't even take any effort to come up with the answer to it (which is often laid out word for word in the show).

Like I don't what to tell  you besides it's been over a year of hearing the same bad arguments over and over again, and the only commonality is that they had a problem with all of it happening to Sansa. Like it shouldn't be something where a toddler could look at it and see what's going on, but all these people that are fans of an extremely intricate show and book series are dumbfounded. It's baffling. More so that it's been going on for over a year.  

 

No. This is exactly part of the problem. There's a world of difference in Reek rescuing a 'nobody' who no one would lift a finger to help, and rescuing a Stark! 

And more. Theon becomes Reek when he kills two fake Starks, and turns back into Theon when he saves another fake Stark. 

[lancerman]

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

No. This is exactly part of the problem. There's a world of difference in Reek rescuing a 'nobody' who no one would lift a finger to help, and rescuing a Stark! 

And more. Theon becomes Reek when he kills two fake Starks, and turns back into Theon when he saves another fake Stark. 

That's a great dissection. However Theon changing to save someone he knew still remains and it doesn't fundamentally change anything. If anything it makes the book have a greater change, but a similar change. It's not that different, certainly not "worlds" different. 

[lancerman]

9 hours ago, Kusanagi said:

LOL

Why? Screw reasons, that's why!

Just like Zack Snyder said Nolan's Batman wasn't dark enough, if it was up to him he would have Batman raped in prison. Why? screw reasons, that's why!

You're post are becoming irrelevant and you are bringing up movies where it is clear you know very little about the source material to prop up your point with no context. Which just makes you look like you know even less of what you are talking about. 

 

As for "Why?". It was explained in the scene with LF and Cersie. Pretty obvious actually. Weird that you don't understand it. 

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

I love how people think Theon 'rescued' anyone in the books! In reality he did nothing, except be bullied into helping out the Ninja wives. He made zero proactive attempt to help Jeyne. He was just in the room when other people did. 

[Ser Quork]

19 minutes ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

I love how people think Theon 'rescued' anyone in the books! In reality he did nothing, except be bullied into helping out the Ninja wives. He made zero proactive attempt to help Jeyne. He was just in the room when other people did. 

Well, no, he helped them get past the guards, which they couldn't have done without him.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

1 hour ago, Ser Quork said:

Well, no, he helped them get past the guards, which they couldn't have done without him.

wow. Yes because he was forced into it. This false picture of Theons redemption is pretty weak. 

[Ser Quork]

8 minutes ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

wow. Yes because he was forced into it. This false picture of Theons redemption is pretty weak. 

Yes, he was badgered into it, because he was terrified of Ramsay.  But he did it.

Quote

“Bran thought about it. ‘Can a man still be brave if he’s afraid?’
‘That is the only time a man can be brave,’ his father told him.”

 

[The Fattest Leech]

1 hour ago, Ser Quork said:

Well, no, he helped them get past the guards, which they couldn't have done without him.

Yup. And those who actually read the books will remember Theon contemplating how to save Jeyne prior to this. He even thinks he should give Jeyne the gift of mercy to save her, and then himself. It was only after Theon visits the godswood and sees the snowmen and is mysteriously led to the crypts and starts to physically eat again that he gains strength and courage enough to agree to the plan. Yes, he is scared the whole time, but what did and teach the boys about having courage when you are scared???  And most, if not all, of the other northern lords there know Jeyne is fake and have sympathy for her. 

[The Fattest Leech]

2 minutes ago, Ser Quork said:

Yes, he was badgered into it, because he was terrified of Ramsay.  But he did it.

 

Hah! You  me with the Ned quote. 

[Darkstream]

10 minutes ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

wow. Yes because he was forced into it. This false picture of Theons redemption is pretty weak. 

Funny, that's how I would describe your understanding of his redemption arc. Reek was a scared and broken man. Just because he needed an external push to act, does not negate his concern for, or desire to help Jeyne.

[Darkstream]

I've been double ed.

Damnable slow phone!

[Ser Biscuit]

17 hours ago, dmc515 said:

I'm sorry, but what?  I'm pretty much done with arguing the false dichotomy between the show and the books, but it's posts like this that piss me off.  There's nothing wrong with the concept of putting Theon and Sansa together and denigrating merging the two to a Cinemax porn is unfounded hyperbole.  The problem was the execution.  Yes, the motives of both LF and Sansa IRT marrying Ramsay made - and still make - no sense whatsoever.  It was indeed "totes terrible" - if you want to ridicule that, fine.

But to wax poetic about the "characterization" of Sansa being fundamentally opposed to that of Theon is equally ridiculous.  "Thematically," they actually have much in common - both have identity crises in terms of which family to remain loyal to, and both regret their decision.  Both have to overcome some type of Stockholm syndrome which still have reverberations to this day.  I found their reconciliation and farewell in the show actually quite touching for just that reason. 

Is it, or will it, be nearly as good as what the books have and will produce?  Nah, Theon's chapters in ADWD are quite possibly my favorite aspect of the entire series.  But placing it at porn levels only demonstrates you need to watch better porn.

 

The problem wasn't just the execution, the problem was that it was ever thought of to begin with. The problem is that someone in that writer's room didn't stand up and say: "Hey, this is a retarded idea." "Hey, you already cast Jeyne Poole and showed her in season 1, just bring her back." "Hey, are you two sniffing glue?"

Sansa is an enemy of the state. It makes no sense whatsoever for an enemy of the state to marry the Warden of the North since that action would bring about open war to the Boltons who are allies to the Lannisters for their part in the Red Wedding. That no one in that room challenged the sheer stupidity of the Sansa/Jeyne switch just on the basis of the above is astounding. I would settle for a simple multiple choice question on a chalk board.

Santa is wanted for regicide of the King Joffrey Baratheon. Do you:

A: Return her to Kings Landing for a huge reward that could further your own House's ambitions.

B: Kill her and bring her remains to Kings Landing for a huge reward that could further your own House's ambitions.

C: Marry her, piss off the Royal Crown, piss away all progress in terms of alliances made from the Red Wedding, risk war with the 7 Kingdoms, get no reward that furthers your House ambitions.

Of course D&D would choose C because they are morons. But I would hope that someone else in that writers room would pick A or B just like everybody else in the history of feudal society.

Now to the second reason why the Sansa/Jeyne switch is brain-dead dumb - Littlerfinger. While Littlerfinger on the show isn't 1/10 as intelligent as the one in the books, the one in the show still values breathing. Sansa is a fugitive and those who harbor the fugitive will be killed. Why would Litterfinger or anybody with a functioning brain go through the trouble of helping Sansa escape KL, bring her to the Vale and give her a new identity so that she won't be discovered, only to take her to the North a few months later and flat out reveal that she's Sansa and that you were the one who helped her escape? Is "utter stupidity" one of his values? Does he not care about such things as war, being locked up in prison, or having his head chopped off? Of course he does. But "creatively it made sense because we wanted it to happen" kicked in and what we end up with is Littlefinger doing the unthinkable from any sort of logical storytelling perspective. I doubt one person thought "Hey this kinda makes Littlefinger look dumber than Dr. Evil, we shouldn't do this to his character". That would require caring about character integrity and we can't have that.

The third reason why washing your car in the rain is a better idea than the Sansa/Jeyne swap is Sansa herself. Let's say you escaped from prison in North Carolina and fled to Virginia with a new name and social security number, and maybe even gave yourself a new look to hide out from being tracked down. The logical next step would be to move to Minnesota and marry the governor of Minnesota using your original social security number in the registration in a televised Wedding that attracts huge attention with your real name shown on screen. Oh wait, that wouldn't be the next logical step? Why? Because it's asinine and because you'll get caught? Correct you are! Unfortunately this means you're probably more intelligent than the people who adapted ASOIAF. Sansa should have been kicking and screaming the whole way up North, having to be locked down in chains to keep her from escaping because she so feared for her life now that her whereabouts will be known. But nah that would make too much sense.

The fourth reason why shouting in an avalanche makes more sense than switching Jeyne for Sansa - it robs Theon. Anybody would go out of their way to save a highborn especially one the status of Sansa Stark, if not for money than for glory. What makes what Theon does special is he risks his life to save someone he knows isn't a Stark, some girl made into whore who was fancied up for appearances. He saves her not for glory or reward, but because it was the right thing to do, because he's sick of being afraid of Ramsey and isn't going to let him do to someone else what was done to him, because he saw in Jeyne a kindred spirit, and because in finding his courage he finds himself. He remembers he's Theon fking Greyjoy, a son of Pike, and nobody's bitch anymore. So long as he can get Jeyne to safety he's won, even if he dies in the process. That's bravery, that's chivalry, that's honorable. That's everything GoT goes out of it's way to mock and belittle which is one of the many reasons why it'll never be an accurate or acceptable adaption of ASOIAF.

Not that the showrunners give a shit about Theon anyway. They have him give his birthright away to his bitch of a sister and have him follow her around anywhere she goes. He trades one sadistic master for an emasculating one with teats. I guess that's called progress (aka wohoo gurl power!) in D&D'e eyes.

Oh and for the record, Sansa does not have Stockholm syndrome and never did. She wanted to stay in KL and continue with her betrothal, that's why she told Cersei about Ned's plans to take her away. Had she known what Ned knew, she wouldn't have told Cersei jack squat. Sansa never fell in love with her captures. She despised Cersei and Joffrey and still does. And she doesn't love Littlefinger now either, nor does she forget who she is. She's playing a role to keep herself from being taken back to Kings Landing. That is all. Sansa will never forget she is a Stark.

 

6 hours ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

I love how people think Theon 'rescued' anyone in the books! In reality he did nothing, except be bullied into helping out the Ninja wives. He made zero proactive attempt to help Jeyne. He was just in the room when other people did. 

Without Theon that rescue never happens period. He's the only person that knows the guards, he's the only person the guards trust to let near Jeyne, he's the only one Jeyne trusts to leave with, he's the only one the guards of gates would allow near it. Oh and the actual escape portion of the plan? That's how Theon snuck into Winterfell back in the "A Clash Of Kings". That's why Mance needed to know how he did it, so that they could duplicate it and escape out of Winterfell.

Read the books and not the Wiki notes. That's 1 reason out of 100 why D&D fail so much.

[zorkman]

Very well written post by Ser Biscuit, that I totally agree with.

It would be nice if you could mark posts up & down like you can in the Paradox forums.

 

[Kusanagi]

8 hours ago, lancerman said:

You're post are becoming irrelevant and you are bringing up movies where it is clear you know very little about the source material to prop up your point with no context. Which just makes you look like you know even less of what you are talking about. 

As for "Why?". It was explained in the scene with LF and Cersie. Pretty obvious actually. Weird that you don't understand it. 

Explain how? Explain in a logical manner that is consistent with character motivations and arcs and executed non-gratuitously? 

Mention it passingly, one time or twice isn't explanation. Mentioning something that violates internal logical and character arcs isn't explanation.

You understand it now? I don't think so.

[kissdbyfire]

Despite the absolute terror the idea of being caught by Ramsay instils in Theon he takes part in Mance's plan, and without his presence it wouldn't have been possible. There are several things he could have done to get out of helping the spearwives, like telling Ramsay everything, and yet he doesn't do that. If Theon doesn't take part in the plan willingly, Jeyne doesn't get rescued. It's really that simple.