"Fair Game: The critical universe around Game of Thrones" - [Finally]

[The Fattest Leech]

10 minutes ago, Ser Gareth said:

No, but that is not the point is it?  The point was the word "most".  And you refuted that.

And this forum is probably the biggest bastion of show hate on the internet!

Just because "most" people watch the show doesn't mean it's all good. And the Kard show reference is just such an example. 

Just because "most" articles and magazines say the show is amazeballs doesn't mean it's true. A main point to what the documentary was trying to point out. 

There are plenty of people who live the show but see faults, or don't like the show but still find nice moments. As a matter of fact this was just discussed on another thread about 20 minutes ago. The issue is the imbalance that comes from the mass media which is what the majority of people see everyday online, in print and on tv, whether they want to or not.

There are other sites out there that are quick with a match to burn you if you so much mention a tv-book comparison or use the books to help explain a tv plot. 

[Ser Gareth]

5 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Just because "most" people watch the show doesn't mean it's all good. And the Kard show reference is just such an example. 

Just because "most" articles and magazines say the show is amazeballs doesn't mean it's true. A main point to what the documentary was trying to point out. 

There are plenty of people who live the show but see faults, or don't like the show but still find nice moments. As a matter of fact this was just discussed on another thread about 20 minutes ago. The issue is the imbalance that comes from the mass media which is what the majority of people see everyday online, in print and on tv, whether they want to or not.

There are other sites out there that are quick with a match to burn you if you so much mention a tv-book comparison or use the books to help explain a tv plot. 

OK, if you want to believe that to keep supporting your viewpoint then good luck to you!  But all over the net on social media, other non related forums, on this forum (which is the bastion of show hate, I wasn't kidding) and other ASIOAF forums the general opinion is positive.  More than positive.

[lancerman]

24 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Those numbers are for this forum only. It's good to see you didn't just go for 10 because....  

The slimeball trash that is the Kardashians have about 10 (?) seasons on tv with a few spin offs. Quantity does not equal quality. 

The kardashians also don't get the same amount of positive criticism either and you have far more members of the general populace calling it trash. 

The difference is the contrary opinion on the quality of the show isn't held up as true 

[The Fattest Leech]

1 minute ago, Ser Gareth said:

OK, if you want to believe that to keep supporting your viewpoint then good luck to you!  But all over the net on social media, other non related forums, on this forum (which is the bastion of show hate, I wasn't kidding) and other ASIOAF forums the general opinion is positive.  More than positive.

Do you read or post at some particular sites such as the one that titles itself with the NW vows? It's like the posters there are organized with each other and will tear another posters opinion to shreds if they drop any book info into the comments.

I do not post there and only read for the articles . But good gawd, that place can be toxic. And the mods allow it to happen. 

 

[The Fattest Leech]

6 minutes ago, lancerman said:

The kardashians also don't get the same amount of positive criticism either and you have far more members of the general populace calling it trash. 

The difference is the contrary opinion on the quality of the show isn't held up as true 

Check out their fans and the products they sell and their Instagram feeds and such. They are quite popular. 

I have to go mow my lawn now. 

[kissdbyfire]

37 minutes ago, lancerman said:

She was naive and manipulated into believing she would be working with LF to get revenge. Very simple 

It's not very simple, sorry. LF and Sansa never talk about how she will get revenge by marrying Ramsay. And if you are going to tell me they made detailed plans off screen, please, don't bother. That may very well be the  "right explanation", because nothing else can justify this colossally stupid decision on both their parts. But they have to show some planning, set it up a little bit, they have to tell a story!. I could even buy that there was some previous off screen planning if Sansa had actually acted like she was at least trying to achieve/do something. But it never happened. As Cas Stark said up thread, she pouted, misbehaved at the dinner table, and tried her best to alienate the people who murdered her family and who, at that point, held her captive. 

So, for Sansa to be "naive and manipulated" like this, under these circumstances, she has to be extremely stupid as well. But then she'll act smart again at some point, when the plot demands it of her.

This issue with this storyline is just one example, and the show has plenty more of the same. Other shows have been ripped apart for less inconsistencies, lack of logic, plot holes, etc, not to mention the bad writing. And yet GoT gets a pass on a lot of the same problems. 

I haven't watched the documentary yet, but that's what I'm assuming it's about. 

[lancerman]

5 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

It's not very simple, sorry. LF and Sansa never talk about how she will get revenge by marrying Ramsay. And if you are going to tell me they made detailed plans off screen, please, don't bother. That may very well be the  "right explanation", because nothing else can justify this colossally stupid decision on both their parts. But they have to show some planning, set it up a little bit, they have to tell a story!. I could even buy that there was some previous off screen planning if Sansa had actually acted like she was at least trying to achieve/do something. But it never happened. As Cas Stark said up thread, she pouted, misbehaved at the dinner table, and tried her best to alienate the people who murdered her family and who, at that point, held her captive. 

So, for Sansa to be "naive and manipulated" like this, under these circumstances, she has to be extremely stupid as well. But then she'll act smart again at some point, when the plot demands it of her.

This issue with this storyline is just one example, and the show has plenty more of the same. Other shows have been ripped apart for less inconsistencies, lack of logic, plot holes, etc, not to mention the bad writing. And yet GoT gets a pass on a lot of the same problems. 

I haven't watched the documentary yet, but that's what I'm assuming it's about. 

No the issue is simple. You are willing to ignore that for the entire series Sansa has been naive, easily manipulated, and blindly trusting of people. 

They don't have to show ANY planning when you have a character that trusting and naive. That's the point. 

This is a lot of people projecting onto what Sansa would require to go along with LF's plan. 

[RoamingRonin]

6 hours ago, Crixus said:

b. people can watch what they like when they like however they like. All this disingenuous commenting around 'why are you spending time watching what you hate?!' is nothing more than concern trolling or baiting. You don't get to decide who watches what, show lovers, any more than readers have the right do. Enough with this adolescent strawmanning.

People are certainly free to do as they please but after years of ranting and raving, it begs the question: why are you still watching if you hate it so much? It's optional entertainment. You're more than free to get off if you dont like the ride. 

"Because I can!" is a piss poor excuse. 

[Crixus]

I just don't see how that's relevant or why people should need to justify or explain their motives online. 

[kissdbyfire]

13 minutes ago, lancerman said:

No the issue is simple. You are willing to ignore that for the entire series Sansa has been naive, easily manipulated, and blindly trusting of people. 

They don't have to show ANY planning when you have a character that trusting and naive. That's the point. 

This is a lot of people projecting onto what Sansa would require to go along with LF's plan. 

But that goes against Darth Sansa from s 4. And that's part of the point, so thank you for helping me out here.

Sansa is naive and easily manipulated, then the plot demands that she acts cunning and in control and she does. So far, so good; she's becoming a player under LF's 'tutelage', so not an OOC 180°. But then, to get her to Winterfell, she has to be very naive and easily manipulated again.

[lancerman]

20 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

But that goes against Darth Sansa from s 4. And that's part of the point, so thank you for helping me out here.

Sansa is naive and easily manipulated, then the plot demands that she acts cunning and in control and she does. So far, so good; she's becoming a player under LF's 'tutelage', so not an OOC 180°. But then, to get her to Winterfell, she has to be very naive and easily manipulated again.

Darth Sansa fan bullshit I've ever heard. She gets manipulated into lying for the sociopath who killed her aunt and made her a fugitive AND because she dressed in black and gave Baelish fuck me eyes all of a sudden she's now a dominant character? Really?  

Nothing changed besides he told her how to dye her hair. 

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

25 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

But that goes against Darth Sansa from s 4. And that's part of the point, so thank you for helping me out here.

Sansa is naive and easily manipulated, then the plot demands that she acts cunning and in control and she does. So far, so good; she's becoming a player under LF's 'tutelage', so not an OOC 180°. But then, to get her to Winterfell, she has to be very naive and easily manipulated again.

LOL! A girl walks down some stairs in a slightly darker dress than normal and suddenly she's an entirely new character?! 

[SerMixalot]

10 hours ago, Dragon in the North said:

I've never heard of Cop Rock, but if some people believe it to be better than The Wire, who are you to say that they're wrong?

Ahh the epitome of relativism.

Here I just scribbled on a post-it note, that is art far exceeding Michaelangelo, Picasso, Remebrant, cause I like it.

 

 

[Ser Gareth]

15 minutes ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

LOL! A girl walks down some stairs in a slightly darker dress than normal and suddenly she's an entirely new character?! 

It's a silent cry for help to the public in a last ditch attempt make them realise she's just a HBO hostage trapped in a show that is only still going because HBO are forcing the critics to give it positive reviews....

[SerMixalot]

2 hours ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

All of these issues are matters of opinion. I happen to disagree with you and as it seems most other people do too. 

Everything is not a matter of opinion.  Inconsistencies are rampant, plot holes are rampant, contradictory actions are throughout the show.  That is not a matter of opinion, that is irrefutable.

[RoamingRonin]

1 minute ago, SerMixalot said:

Everything is not a matter of opinion.  Inconsistencies are rampant, plot holes are rampant, contradictory actions are throughout the show.  That is not a matter of opinion, that is irrefutable.

Will still be tuning in Sunday night. See you there?

[SerMixalot]

2 hours ago, StepStark said:

But is something wrong with analyzing things that escape others? I don't understand you position, really. Are you promoting ignorance? Are you saying that we should stop to care just because you and your fellow show lovers don't care? As someone said, if you all think 1+1=7, and the minority think that 1+1=2, why is do you think something is wrong with the minority? You can still say that you don't care how much 1+1 actually is, but it doesn't make us wrong, it makes you disinterested.

Because everything is subjective don't you know?  I mean Northman Robb and Esterosi Talisa marrying in a Sept is not an error it is true, subjectively

[kissdbyfire]

48 minutes ago, lancerman said:

Darth Sansa fan bullshit I've ever heard. She gets manipulated into lying for the sociopath who killed her aunt and made her a fugitive AND because she dressed in black and gave Baelish fuck me eyes all of a sudden she's now a dominant character? Really?  

Nothing changed besides he told her how to dye her hair. 

I never said I bought into the Darth Sansa bs, did I? I only called it that because of all the memes and critics raving that Sansa was totally in charge and and showing her skill at "the game!". But once more, many thanks, because you're helping me make my point. Again. 

So, you never bought that s 4 Sansa was in charge of anything, right? You say she was again cleverly manipulated by LF into doing exactly what he wanted her to do. Then the show runners failed miserably at conveying what they were going for, as you can see for yourself. When talking about Sansa saving LF's arse, Mr Weiss goes as far as saying Sansa is the only person who's ever had the upper hand with LF. And if they didn't fail miserably, and it's just your interpretation of the scene that is incorrect - again, according to Mr Benioff and Mr Weiss, in s 5 they had her pull the usual 180° to become so naive and so easily manipulated again. Whichever way you look at it, it's a no-win scenario. 

 

[SerMixalot]

2 hours ago, lancerman said:

Doesn't matter what she does if the end result is that the Bolton's are ousted. She put her faith in LF and trusted that he had a plan. 

It's like saying what does Luke Skywalker get by going into the Death Star in Jedi.

The are arguing the short term ramifications when the end goal was a theoretical long term plan. 

Sansa is still married to Ramsay, at the end of the season her and Jon will probably lead an army to oust them. The effects of the marriage won't matter after that. Similarly of LF had a real plan the marriage wouldn't matter. 

 

The effects of the marriage won't matter after that.  Exhibit A for the argument that this is poor storytelling-

a. actions have no effects.

b. rape and abuse have no effect

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

BTW I posted my thoughts on the documentaries site. Miodrag kindly replied and was quite cordial. 

However his latest post caught my eye:

 

Quote

At last, I don't know what's wrong with suggesting things. Especially in documentaries. I watched a number of them, and they often suggest things that weren't supported by evidence - sometimes because the evidence is impossible to produce, and sometimes because the suggestion is the real goal. What matters is the legitimacy of the suggestion. And, of course, that it's not presented as a fact, but as a suggestion.

There are a number of documentaries that make suggestions about things on the internet and neglect to give any sort of evidence to back up their claims. However on the whole they fall into the category of 'crazy conspiracy theory' documentary. In fact even the crazy conspiracy theory documentaries at least attempt to try and prove their theories, even in the most bonkers way possible. Go watch Zeitgeist or something if you want to confused by half truths and outright lies. 

If you want to make a claim about something and basically defame the reputation of a number of critics out there then you need to be able to back up your claims by cold hard evidence. Its a good job he didn't give any examples of critics or reviews because he could leave himself open to being heavily sued. Which is maybe the reason the documentary is so lacking in actual content.