Arya vs. the Waif

[Neffaria]

oh, and I should also add, even though I was disappointed with the writing, I didnt hate her arc, I still enjoyed many aspects of it, I just wished for better consistency, better attention to narrative and detail. I said it once and I'll say it again, if they had cast a shitty actress the writing and directing flaws would be blatantly obvious. 

[Future Null Infinity]

11 minutes ago, Neffaria said:

the failure of plan A I would call implausible because the character we know as Arya has never shown herself to be unobservant and trusting of strangers (even before Neds beheading, before she had a who -am-I crisis, before she was on the run, back when she felt safe). her openness to the old lady is something that Arya would never do. she is incredibly observant, doesnt like people in her personal space. It seems odd that she allows the old lady within an arms reach of her. And I would say that the writers have her allow this because they need her to in order further the plot. that is shoddy writing. they could have done any number of simple things had arya take a step back in distrust at the old woman, who is suddenly agile and takes a swipe. very simple to do, and still in character - it would still fulfill the concept that plan A must fail.

But that begs the question: why? why did plan A have to fail? what did we gain by it failing? In my opinion, it served no purpose to the story, sure we saw lady crane again, we saw her die, neither were necessary nor relevant. From where I was sitting it seemed to be used to shock viewers, cause a cliffhanger and create "stir" (which it did) and yet it did nothing for the story. To me that makes it shoddy writing because it only serves to further the "HBO Business" of GoT not further the story itself. Awesome writing in a TV series should serve both,  

this is the most incredible thing I've ever saw, you speak about something called 'Plan A' that never existed in the show as a reality and you are questioning why this imaginary plan A failed in the show!!!!!
I'll give a simpler reality from the show : Arya got stabbed, Waif-U won the first round, but Arya got the upper hand in round two and killed Waif-U, they both trained and they are both good
See, a very simple logic

[John Suburbs]

The waif may be good at fighting with sticks, but she is a piss-poor assassin. She botched the first job, yammered at her target for half a minute so she could escape in the second attempt, couldn't catch a bleeding, stumbling girl across open markets and alleyways, caught up to her using a wall and then decided not to jump directly on her but a good 10 years behind, then got lured into a trap to be killed...

If she hadn't died, she would have been the laughing stock of the order.

It would have been good, though, if there had been a cat in the room just before the lights went out.

[Ser Hyle]

16 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

The waif may be good at fighting with sticks, but she is a piss-poor assassin. She botched the first job, yammered at her target for half a minute so she could escape in the second attempt, couldn't catch a bleeding, stumbling girl across open markets and alleyways, caught up to her using a wall and then decided not to jump directly on her but a good 10 years behind, then got lured into a trap to be killed...

If she hadn't died, she would have been the laughing stock of the order.

It would have been good, though, if there had been a cat in the room just before the lights went out.

Well put. We're set up to believe that the Faceless Men is the greatest assassins guild in the world. That if somebody paid a price, you were as good as dead and who did it/how it happened would be a mystery. The way it's been portrayed leads me to believe they're a bunch of nonsense talking stooges with the magical ability to change their face/appearance. Very underwhelming.

[Desert Fox]

1 hour ago, Cas Stark said:

Did show only people really think she was going to become 'no one' give up her personal identity and become a FM with no goals or agenda, forget about Winterfell?  Is that what they were hoping would happen?

I have to say, that seems a poor understanding of the story. 

 

One friend thought she'd become no one and be a faceless man and then somehow find her way back. But most just thought Arya would become a super cool badass white ninja. I agree it's pretty rediculous. But they kept showing Arya trick Jacqen with her obvious bullshit about being no one. I think the show was foreshadowing that he didn't really want her to be no one but nobody was picking that up. 

This season would have been better if they just skipped the waif gets to kill ayra stuff and just had her get on a boat with no consequences. Esp since that's what Jacquen lets her do in the end anyway.  Because the scenes with the theater were really good and hit the theme of Arya taking back her identity. But those training by stick beating scenes were trash. I'd take terminator waif vs wolverine ayra over those bad training scenes any day   

 

[Cas Stark]

I would have greatly preferred more Jaqen and less Bobcut all the way around. 

I've ranted numerous times about the stupidity of bringing Tom W. back, who had awesome chemistry w/Maise, and then wasting him in the fucking shadows while Bobcut beats Arya with a stick.  I would have much preferred a revamp of the Arya/Tywin convos from season 2, where she and Tom would sit around, play the lying game, maybe add the 3 things I learned game to impart some back story on whatever they wanted, Dany, dragons, Essos...anything, and he could have randomly smacked her with a stick.

We don't even have any idea why Bobcut hated Arya so much that her own training went to hell and she had a personal grudge against her...unless the FM really are totally full of it, and terrible assassins, terrible trainers, terrible at everything.

[ShadowKitteh]

16 hours ago, Darkstream said:

This is all strawman.

I don't need to, or have the talent (much like d$d) to write another version, thank the gods I have the books to read and look forward to.

 Great post.

Just because I think Arya is still a young girl - because she is (and feels that way/says so in the books), and capable of making mistakes, which you took issue with, doesn't make my argument a strawman. 

We just disagree.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/strawman 

[SerMixalot]

the blade was like 6 inches long, it should have poked out Maisie, er Arya, er Aryavelrine-(Arya Warged into Wolverine)'s back

[SerMixalot]

21 hours ago, The Handsome Man said:

Agree with everything you have said leading up to and after this episode.  In the behind the scenes short for the episode, they did say that Arya was leading the Waif into the trap deliberately by smearing the blood on the walls -- still seems like an ex post explanation to me but thought it was worth pointing out.  I also assume the reason they had Jaquen/Kindly Man say "do not let her suffer" and then repeated that in the intro to episode 8 was to explain why the Waif did not go for a throat slash in episode 7.  I am not defending it -- as others have written, this all could have been done so much better, even if you wanted to stay with the "Arya gets stabbed/Lady Crane heals her/kill the waif plot".

I am really struggling now to understand the character's purpose going forward.  These past episodes should prove to everyone: Put aside all the tinfoil stuff.  Ayra is not turning into Nymeria, she is not the waif, she is is not meeting Gentry, Syrio or Jaquen again.  They made a bid deal at the start of episode 5 of Arya culling down her list to 3 (Frey, the Mountain, Cersai).  My guess is that the next time we see her, the list is back on her lips.  The problem, of course, is that she is leaving the HofBW with absolutely no additional skills, except hard core sweeping and fighting in the dark (contrast that to the Arya in the books, which is where the show could have and should have taken her development). But I bet we see her exacting revenge on 1 or 2 of the 3 somehow -- and probably in another episode that makes us all groan.  The point is: there is now no way out of this incredulous mess they have created.  It is just not believable to think that Arya is going to be his effective assassin exacting revenge -- but that is where I think they are going to go with the character.  Otherwise, what role does she serve?

 

 

What if the Waif didn't close the door? the candle trick wouldn't have worked

[SerMixalot]

Which one of the following do not belong?

Robert

Barristan

Greyworm

Doran

Arya

Talisa

Robb

Hotah

Drogo

 

[Arya_Stormborn]

4 hours ago, Neffaria said:

But that begs the question: why? why did plan A have to fail? what did we gain by it failing? In my opinion, it served no purpose to the story, sure we saw lady crane again, we saw her die, neither were necessary nor relevant. From where I was sitting it seemed to be used to shock viewers, cause a cliffhanger and create "stir" (which it did) and yet it did nothing for the story. To me that makes it shoddy writing because it only serves to further the "HBO Business" of GoT not further the story itself. Awesome writing in a TV series should serve both,  

Lady Crane dying might still end up being relevant if Arya does decide to join the theater troupe, either permanently or as a way of earning passage home. (Remember she's given away all of her money now -- no idea where she got it in the first place, but that's beside the point.) I agree, though, this entire story line was extremely unsatisfying. One of the worst episodes in the series so far.

[FingerlittleGood]

4 minutes ago, Arya_Stormborn said:

Lady Crane dying might still end up being relevant if Arya does decide to join the theater troupe, either permanently or as a way of earning passage home. (Remember she's given away all of her money now -- no idea where she got it in the first place, but that's beside the point.) I agree, though, this entire story line was extremely unsatisfying. One of the worst episodes in the series so far.

I thought the entire setup of the faceless men was very good but then turned to crap by bad writing. She met awesome assassin guild who stealth killed. She could have trained with face changing, poisons, combat and stealth killings and be sent on her way back and that would have been much more satisfying in my opinion than the entire all over the place story they came up with.

[Darkstream]

7 hours ago, ShadowKitteh said:

Just because I think Arya is still a young girl - because she is (and feels that way/says so in the books), and capable of making mistakes, which you took issue with, doesn't make my argument a strawman. 

We just disagree.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/strawman 

Actually yes, your argument is a strawman. Let me explain why.

You continually are arguing to me that Arya is a young girl, who is not perfect and makes mistakes. I have not once stated otherwise or taken issue with any of these points. I agree with them all. Arya is a young girl, who like every other person in the world is not perfect and will make mistakes. Seven hells, I am getting up there in the name days I've counted and I am far from perfect, I still make mistakes, and I am always learning new things, and will continue to do so until my time is up.

My argument, that you continually ignore and keep retorting with a strawman is, that a young girl like Arya, who has suffered through the horrible experiences that she has had, and that has just spent two seasons training with an elite order of assassins, and is fully aware of the predicament that she is in should not make the specific mistake that she did. She has spent enough time with the Faceless men to know how they operate, and she knows that they are coming after her. She should not be flippantly gazing off a bridge day dreaming when she is faced with the situation she is in. I don't care how old she is, and how imperfect she is, there is no way in seven hells she should have been caught so unaware of the Waif when her life was in mortal danger. 

Are you telling me that after everything Arya has experienced, practically watching her father being decapitated, surviving being on the run in the war torn wilderness, being a prisoner at HH, her experiences at the Twins, all by herself managing to book passage and get herself safely across the Narrow Sea to Bravos, find and train with the Faceless men and then escape them, are you telling me that after all of this, she's not wise enough to know that when an elite assassins guild is looking to exterminate you, that you might want to go into hiding, or be extremely careful and watch your frigging back?

The fact that she was taken so easily and unaware by the Waif is preposterous. And the worst part is that this was actually the most plausible part of the entire Arya scenes in the past two weeks.

ETA:

Quote

She's not the Terminator,

And why would you say this? It's obvious that the Waif is the Terminator, Arya is Wolverine.

[Darkstream]

9 hours ago, SerMixalot said:

Which one of the following do not belong?

Robert

Barristan

Greyworm

Doran

Arya

Talisa

Robb

Hotah

Drogo

 

Greyworm, obviously, that's to easy.

Quote

Aryavelrine-(Arya Warged into Wolverine)

Well, I like this, but the hell if I can actually say it. And not to be a jerk and nit-pick, (if I do it to the show, I should do it to my fellow ranters as well) but you mean skinchange, not warg. 

 

[Cas Stark]

Just as one example of how it could have been even slightly altered to work better and not be an afront to common sense.

Instead of Arya wandering around, throwing bags of money at people.  Why not have her confront the waif?  This would show (1) Arya's skill at not being noticed (2) support the idea she has a plan.  She and the waif can have some dialogue, and then fight.  Arya is wounded.  Not stabbed repeatedly in the abdomen and then falls into the canal and then staggers around.  But wounded.  She flees.  It would appear that Arya's plan has failed..to confront and get the drop on Bobcut but then she will lead her into the same room, cut the candle and kill her.

I'm sure there must be a way that such a sequence could have been made interesting, even if it not quite so operatic at the Terminator Chase.  

And then the audience is left with no questions that Arya has acquired strong skills and shows why her beating Bobcut isn't so far fetched.  It would have helped if she didn't always get her ass kicked previously also.  LOL.

[Neffaria]

20 hours ago, Future Null Infinity said:

this is the most incredible thing I've ever saw, you speak about something called 'Plan A' that never existed in the show as a reality and you are questioning why this imaginary plan A failed in the show!!!!!
I'll give a simpler reality from the show : Arya got stabbed, Waif-U won the first round, but Arya got the upper hand in round two and killed Waif-U, they both trained and they are both good
See, a very simple logic

 

the "plan A" was in response to someone saying that the reason she was acting so completely out of character was because she was planning to lure the waif. My bitch was that her attitude in episode 7 was completely out of character, hence shit writing, her acting out of character was excused by the idea that "oh there was a plan A to lure the waif, it failed, which is why she got stabbed" 

my only argument is the whole arc ending between ep 7 and 8 for arya is that it was shitty, lazy writing. peroiod.

I get that its simple,l Arya acts dumb - > arya gets stabbed -> arya gets magic healed -> arya kills waif -> arya goes home. 

my bitch is that all of the crap surrounding this arc was poorly written drivel. the discussion of plan a vs plan b etc was explaining that EVEN IF iI bought it, its still crap writing. 

sorry if that confused you

[Neffaria]

16 hours ago, Arya_Stormborn said:

Lady Crane dying might still end up being relevant if Arya does decide to join the theater troupe, either permanently or as a way of earning passage home. (Remember she's given away all of her money now -- no idea where she got it in the first place, but that's beside the point.) I agree, though, this entire story line was extremely unsatisfying. One of the worst episodes in the series so far.

 

 

I thought she actually scooped the money back up off of the table of the ship guy... Unless she gave it away again that I missed. And thats fair, I'll happily eat my words on it serving no purpose if such an event should come to pass, and in a way I really hope it does because then as unsatisfying as this arc ending was maybe it would get some redemption. but until then I stand with my assertion. deus ex machina, lazy plotting and out of character behavior = shitty writing. which is really too bad. it could have been a 10/10 and ended up only a 6, and thats being generous. 

[Future Null Infinity]

4 minutes ago, Neffaria said:

Arya acts dumb

logically and realistically, do you think that Arya had any chance against the Waif? 

[Neffaria]

Just now, Future Null Infinity said:

logically and realistically, do you think that Arya had any chance against the Waif? 

In my opinion, no. not based on the events that D&D have shown us. I have no reason to believe that Arya was not killed in the black-out scene and that the waif placed her own face in the hall symbolically showing jaq'aan that she is in fact no one, and has defeated Arya Stark. and is now assuming her identity to go on a mission in Westeros. 

and that is completely crack pot. but the writing and the evidence given there's only two possibilities.

either a) Arya lost and is, in fact, dead

or b ) she won, and all of the events leading up to that final victory were poorly written and required a huge amount of "suspension of disbelief" it was a case of reeeeeaaaaaallllly shitty writing (I honestly think this one is the case).

logically her win on the end fight in the dark is possible, we have established that she's trained in water dancing, and she has needle, couple that with her being able to block the waif (it happened once, could happen again) while blind and perhaps if I suspend disbelief and root for the underdog sure Arya could have won. I also believe that given everything we know about Arya, her actions in episode 7 were contrary to the way she has ever behaved (even prior to being on the run).

[Neffaria]

16 hours ago, FingerlittleGood said:

I thought the entire setup of the faceless men was very good but then turned to crap by bad writing. She met awesome assassin guild who stealth killed. She could have trained with face changing, poisons, combat and stealth killings and be sent on her way back and that would have been much more satisfying in my opinion than the entire all over the place story they came up with.

 

100% agree. and they wouldnt have had to change much in terms of the dynamic of the story. just shown her succeed a little more often with the waif (fights and maybe a random parkour chase) make the scene where she is blind and sniffing potions a little more straightforward, have her changing her face using non hall of faces methods. makeup or glamouring. even if at the end of all of did the  "nope Im arya this isnt working for me" ending like we saw (minus a couple horrible direction and writing choices they made in the final arc) it would have been 100% more fulfilling.