Is Jaime a good jouster or not?

[cgrav]

36 minutes ago, Eden-Mackenzie said:

Do you question Loras's abilities? 

But most importantly, what does it add to the story if Jaime is not "as good at war as he is reputed to be?"

what it adds is character depth. He has a reputation that feeds a huge ego, but the only events mentioned don't support that reputation. This is laid bare in the scene where Jaime ponders his very short entry in the history of the Kingsguard. That same chapter quotes Barristan Selmy's entry, which is quite lengthy.

as far as Loras goes, we aren't in Loras's head like we are in Jaime's. Jaime is a primary character with a dynamic arc. That his inner and outer states differ is essential to his development, because he can't develop if he doesn't confront his unearned pride and reputation. Loras has conflicts, but I don't think it matters all that much if he's "only" a middling swordsman. Loras' conflict is with his sexuality, not his pride. 

In a way there's a parallel because both men hide their true selves (and romantic partners) behind a warrior's shield, but unlike Loras, Jaime has actually deluded himself into believing that he's a great warrior. The grows only by accepting that he doesn't belong on the same historical page as others of similar reputation.

With ASoIF's POV narratives, I believe it's very important and illuminating to note the differences between what we are told and what we are shown. We are told of Jaime's skill with weapons, but we are shown only the times he failed to live up to the what other people say about him.

[Minsc]

1 hour ago, zandru said:

@Eiko Dragonhorn: "Lost to Loras when dagger changes hands. "

But this, as far as we know, never happened. It was a fabrication by Petyr Baelish to frame Tyrion. The dragonbone/valerian steel dagger that Baelish claimed had been his and had been won by Tyrion (betting against his older brother, yeah sure), was never in the possession of Littlefinger. It was Robert Baratheon's, from start to finish.

Given the dagger "bet" was a fabrication, I think there's also doubt that Loras beat Jaime, or that that tourney even occurred. Remember, Littlefinger was talking to Cat and Ned, neither of whom had been in King's Landing for a decade or so, and didn't keep up with the tourney circuit. So don't hold this "loss" as recounted by a known and near-legendary liar and manipulator against the Kingslayer!

The lie was that the dagger was lost to Tyrion when it was lost to Robert.  Jaime references the joust later and mentions how Robert rubbed his lost into his face by showing off his new dagger.

[Ser Leftwich]

More from AGoT:

The Kingslayer rode brilliantly. He overthrew Ser Andar Royce and the Marcher Lord Bryce Caron as easily as if he were riding at rings, and then took a hard-fought match from white-haired Barristan Selmy, who had won his first two tilts against men thirty and forty years his junior. - AGoT p. 295

Jaime was that good.

[Boarsbane]

22 minutes ago, cgrav said:

what it adds is character depth. He has a reputation that feeds a huge ego, but the only events mentioned don't support that reputation. This is laid bare in the scene where Jaime ponders his very short entry in the history of the Kingsguard. That same chapter quotes Barristan Selmy's entry, which is quite lengthy.

as far as Loras goes, we aren't in Loras's head like we are in Jaime's. Jaime is a primary character with a dynamic arc. That his inner and outer states differ is essential to his development, because he can't develop if he doesn't confront his unearned pride and reputation. Loras has conflicts, but I don't think it matters all that much if he's "only" a middling swordsman. Loras' conflict is with his sexuality, not his pride. 

In a way there's a parallel because both men hide their true selves (and romantic partners) behind a warrior's shield, but unlike Loras, Jaime has actually deluded himself into believing that he's a great warrior. The grows only by accepting that he doesn't belong on the same historical page as others of similar reputation.

With ASoIF's POV narratives, I believe it's very important and illuminating to note the differences between what we are told and what we are shown. We are told of Jaime's skill with weapons, but we are shown only the times he failed to live up to the what other people say about him.

You've provided nothing but him losing to freakishly large Brienne after being imprisoned for months, malnourished, and chained. That doesn't mean he's overrated but that he's mortal. By the way here is Brienne's thoughts on the matter:

"He was weak from imprisonment, and chained at the wrists. No knight in the Seven Kingdoms could have stood against him at his full strength, with no chains to hamper him. Jaime had done many wicked things, but the man could fight!"

[Sidereal Gadfly]

How has Jaime proven himself as a horseman?  He considers the topic of jousting in A Feast for Crows (Jaime II)...

Quote

Jousting was three-quarters horsemanship, Jaime had always believed. Ser Loras rode superbly, and handled a lance as if he'd been born holding one . . . which no doubt accounted for his mother's pinched expression. He puts the point just where he means to put it, and seems to have the balance of a cat. Perhaps it was not such a fluke that he unhorsed me. It was a shame that he would never have the chance to try the boy again. He left the whole men to their sport.

Poor self-proclaimed less-than-whole man.  He'll find some love on the internet yet.

[Free Northman Reborn]

Jaime is every bit as good a swordsman as he makes himself out to be. How do we know this? Because there is a SSM quote from George where he states that not only is Jaime one of the best swordsmen alive, he is in fact "one of the greatest swordsmen in the history of Westeros".

That makes him pretty darn good.

As for jousting? Probably not as good as his swordsmanship. But who cares about jousting really? It is just prancing around on horseback with a pointy stick. Hand to hand combat, be it with sword, hammer or axe, is what defines a warrior in my book.

[One-eyed Misbehavin]

1 hour ago, cgrav said:

 I considered those circumstances, but I think that scene is there for a reason: to show us that Jaime's pride and reputation are not earned. Add to that that he's in the situation because he was captured.

Contrast to Tyrion, who manages to stumble into valor at Green Fork the same day that Jaime is captured, and then leads a charge during Blackwater. 

Jaime is continually confronted with a reality that does not match what he thinks of himself or what he wants others to think of him. Losing a fight to a "wench", even with mitigating circumstances, is near the bottom of his identity loss arc (of which losing his hand is the rock bottom). It's ptetty shortly after his fight with Brienne that he goes back to Harrenhall to save her. I think we're supposed to understand their fight as putting a big dent in his pride.

Given the events listed and the direction of his plot, I think there's no reason to believe that Jaime is as good at war as he's reputed to be, and that we readers are in fact meant to see the wide gap between his pride and his accomplishments.

In my opinion GRRM made it clear that 2 handed Jamie is the the best in the world at beginning of AGOT. (With Oberyn and still Barry would give him all he could handle)

He says something like only 2 or 3 people could "hang" with him in a fight. I think he meant the hound and Barristan Selmy (who would have beat Jamie in both their primes. Barry's analysis of individual combat is unmatched I really hope he does well in the next book)

Also Jamie wasn't aware of Oberyn, areo Hotah, Garlan. But I'm still saying Jamie could take them

[cgrav]

4 minutes ago, Boarsbane said:

You've provided nothing but him l

"He was weak from imprisonment, and chained at the wrists. No knight in the Seven Kingdoms could have stood against him at his full strength, with no chains to hamper him. Jaime had done many wicked things, but the man could fight!"

Well Jaime losing is most of what GRRM has provided us. What's the point of a badass warrior character who never really gets to display his full skill? Even if you want to argue pure circumstance, we are still never shown the Jaime who wins consistently, or at all in story's "present".

 

and again, those are Brienne's thoughts, which are not privy to Jaime's self doubt. 

To be clear, I don't argue that Jaime sucks, but that he has more renown than concrete accomplishments. Even in the Whispering Wood, he does some slaying but does not accomplish killing Robb, and the attempt is almost selfish when you consider what it cost. 

Is he really good? Yeah, I'm sure his reputation is not simply fraudulent. But is he the legendary warrior he and some others think? No, and that contradiction drives his development as a character. His role is decidedly not not accomplish great things with a sword.

[Free Northman Reborn]

6 minutes ago, cgrav said:

Well Jaime losing is most of what GRRM has provided us. What's the point of a badass warrior character who never really gets to display his full skill? Even if you want to argue pure circumstance, we are still never shown the Jaime who wins consistently, or at all in story's "present".

 

and again, those are Brienne's thoughts, which are not privy to Jaime's self doubt. 

To be clear, I don't argue that Jaime sucks, but that he has more renown than concrete accomplishments. Even in the Whispering Wood, he does some slaying but does not accomplish killing Robb, and the attempt is almost selfish when you consider what it cost. 

Is he really good? Yeah, I'm sure his reputation is not simply fraudulent. But is he the legendary warrior he and some others think? No, and that contradiction drives his development as a character. His role is decidedly not not accomplish great things with a sword.

Except that Martin himself has stated the opposite. To quote him again: "Jaime is one of the greatest swordsmen in the history of Westeros."

And I don't even like Jaime. But facts are facts.

[Boarsbane]

12 minutes ago, cgrav said:

Well Jaime losing is most of what GRRM has provided us. What's the point of a badass warrior character who never really gets to display his full skill? Even if you want to argue pure circumstance, we are still never shown the Jaime who wins consistently, or at all in story's "present".

 

and again, those are Brienne's thoughts, which are not privy to Jaime's self doubt. 

To be clear, I don't argue that Jaime sucks, but that he has more renown than concrete accomplishments. Even in the Whispering Wood, he does some slaying but does not accomplish killing Robb, and the attempt is almost selfish when you consider what it cost. 

Is he really good? Yeah, I'm sure his reputation is not simply fraudulent. But is he the legendary warrior he and some others think? No, and that contradiction drives his development as a character. His role is decidedly not not accomplish great things with a sword.

The structure of the books doesn't allow his full skill to be displayed. Also, look at Dayne who is universally regarded as one of, if not the, greatest of all time. He killed the Smiling Knight, and that's literally the only accomplishment we know of outside tourneys. He didn't fight in Robert's Rebellion and he was killed by two unremarkable Northmen after his king was killed by one of his own brothers. Jaime loses jousts like every other knight, there can only be one champion afterall. Also he's already accomplished at least one great thing with his sword when he slit Aerys' throat and killed his pyromancers 

[cgrav]

I'm tempted to put more weight on the many chapters written in the books than an off-the-cuff interview about how Jaime Lannister stacks up against Aragorn. But I'll concede that Jaime's reputation was probably earned prior to the events in the books.  You have convinced me.

My point is that the character as written, in the time the books take place, is just no longer winning very much in the capacity for which he is renowned. However good Jaime really is, it's not as good as he thinks he is and his ego causes him to make mistakes. Attacking recklessly and getting captured, fighting when he's thoroughly weakened (and assuming a woman couldn't fight), losing to a younger jouster, a younger commander... His ego has lasted longer than his abilities.

[Eden-Mackenzie]

4 hours ago, cgrav said:

what it adds is character depth. He has a reputation that feeds a huge ego, but the only events mentioned don't support that reputation. This is laid bare in the scene where Jaime ponders his very short entry in the history of the Kingsguard. That same chapter quotes Barristan Selmy's entry, which is quite lengthy.

as far as Loras goes, we aren't in Loras's head like we are in Jaime's. Jaime is a primary character with a dynamic arc. That his inner and outer states differ is essential to his development, because he can't develop if he doesn't confront his unearned pride and reputation. Loras has conflicts, but I don't think it matters all that much if he's "only" a middling swordsman. Loras' conflict is with his sexuality, not his pride. 

In a way there's a parallel because both men hide their true selves (and romantic partners) behind a warrior's shield, but unlike Loras, Jaime has actually deluded himself into believing that he's a great warrior. The grows only by accepting that he doesn't belong on the same historical page as others of similar reputation.

With ASoIF's POV narratives, I believe it's very important and illuminating to note the differences between what we are told and what we are shown. We are told of Jaime's skill with weapons, but we are shown only the times he failed to live up to the what other people say about him.

Jaime's Arthur Dayne vs. the Smiling Knight comparison had nothing to do with abilities, and everything to do with action and perception. Jaime is judged for one action, killing Aerys. All his other accomplishments, all his other deeds, good or bad, come behind that one, first and foremost Jaime is the Kingslayer. That is what he was reflecting on, not that he wasn't actually all that great. 

1 hour ago, cgrav said:

I'm tempted to put more weight on the many chapters written in the books than an off-the-cuff interview about how Jaime Lannister stacks up against Aragorn. But I'll concede that Jaime's reputation was probably earned prior to the events in the books.  You have convinced me.

My point is that the character as written, in the time the books take place, is just no longer winning very much in the capacity for which he is renowned. However good Jaime really is, it's not as good as he thinks he is and his ego causes him to make mistakes. Attacking recklessly and getting captured, fighting when he's thoroughly weakened (and assuming a woman couldn't fight), losing to a younger jouster, a younger commander... His ego has lasted longer than his abilities.

You are severely discounting Jaime's actions here. His efforts prior to his capture, his fight against Brienne, would not have been possible had he only been an okay swordsman. Prior to his imprisonment and maiming, Jaime would have defeated anyone we have seen in the novels in single combat. 

[Alan of Rosby]

5 hours ago, cgrav said:

what it adds is character depth. He has a reputation that feeds a huge ego, but the only events mentioned don't support that reputation. This is laid bare in the scene where Jaime ponders his very short entry in the history of the Kingsguard. That same chapter quotes Barristan Selmy's entry, which is quite lengthy.

as far as Loras goes, we aren't in Loras's head like we are in Jaime's. Jaime is a primary character with a dynamic arc. That his inner and outer states differ is essential to his development, because he can't develop if he doesn't confront his unearned pride and reputation. Loras has conflicts, but I don't think it matters all that much if he's "only" a middling swordsman. Loras' conflict is with his sexuality, not his pride. 

In a way there's a parallel because both men hide their true selves (and romantic partners) behind a warrior's shield, but unlike Loras, Jaime has actually deluded himself into believing that he's a great warrior. The grows only by accepting that he doesn't belong on the same historical page as others of similar reputation.

With ASoIF's POV narratives, I believe it's very important and illuminating to note the differences between what we are told and what we are shown. We are told of Jaime's skill with weapons, but we are shown only the times he failed to live up to the what other people say about him.

Well, Barristan Selmy was given charge of writing that history. Barristan is an honest man but he neither likes nor respects Jaime as he is the Kingslayer so perhaps he fails to notice Jaime's achievements on the battlefield, consciously or otherwise. 

[cgrav]

53 minutes ago, Eden-Mackenzie said:

\You are severely discounting Jaime's actions here. His efforts prior to his capture, his fight against Brienne, would not have been possible had he only been an okay swordsman. Prior to his imprisonment and maiming, Jaime would have defeated anyone we have seen in the novels in single combat. 

Those things were apparently not possible for a great swordsman, either. Losing by the smallest of margins is still not winning, and those losses are at odds with his self image. 

All those things he could/would do are exactly the point of conflict - they are hypotheticals, while his reality in the present is losing battles, both real and in the tourney, to young upstarts. He had disadvantages, but disadvantage is something that everyone has to deal with at some time, but Jaime's character starts out having a particularly difficult time dealing with it.

[Winter Rose Crown]

8 hours ago, Eiko Dragonhorn said:

Does it ever say that tourney was a joust?

I know Jaime won a melee when he was 13, this wedding tourney could have just been another melee.

In D&E they mention that there aren't melees at weddings, but there are jousts. It is why Dunk entered the joust when Egg kept saying he would do better in a melee.

[Winter Rose Crown]

53 minutes ago, Alan of Rosby said:

Well, Barristan Selmy was given charge of writing that history. Barristan is an honest man but he neither likes nor respects Jaime as he is the Kingslayer so perhaps he fails to notice Jaime's achievements on the battlefield, consciously or otherwise. 

I don't have my book on me but doesn't jaime say something along the lines of, "Barristan could have atleast mentioned some of the tourneys I won." Implying that he has won multiple tourneys.

[Brightstar_]

5 hours ago, Winter Rose Crown said:

I don't have my book on me but doesn't jaime say something along the lines of, "Barristan could have atleast mentioned some of the tourneys I won." Implying that he has won multiple tourneys.

I'm pretty sure that Jaime does indeed think that.

 

11 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Jaime is every bit as good a swordsman as he makes himself out to be. How do we know this? Because there is a SSM quote from George where he states that not only is Jaime one of the best swordsmen alive, he is in fact "one of the greatest swordsmen in the history of Westeros".

That makes him pretty darn good.

As for jousting? Probably not as good as his swordsmanship. But who cares about jousting really? It is just prancing around on horseback with a pointy stick. Hand to hand combat, be it with sword, hammer or axe, is what defines a warrior in my book.

This should put any doubts on his prowess as a swordsman to rest.

[Katerine]

14 hours ago, cgrav said:

as far as Loras goes, we aren't in Loras's head like we are in Jaime's. Jaime is a primary character with a dynamic arc. That his inner and outer states differ is essential to his development, because he can't develop if he doesn't confront his unearned pride and reputation. Loras has conflicts, but I don't think it matters all that much if he's "only" a middling swordsman. Loras' conflict is with his sexuality, not his pride.

Apologies if derailing, but is Loras's conflict with his sexuality? So far in the books, I don't think his sexuality has really been much of a conflict for him. A few characters have made isolated snide comments about it, but Loras himself doesn't seem to express any discomfort with his sexuality or sense of masculinity.

[Protagoras]

This is a classic issue I hate from movies. Two fighters fight and one of them loses. The loser of course is portrayed as really, really bad by people - despite being in the absolute top.

Jaime is tournying on a high level, winning sometimes and almost always getting high on the lists. This is like saying that Argentina suck in football because Germany and Brazil have won more championships or that Detroit red wings is a bad NHL team since last Stanley cup victory was 2007-2008 and that some other teams (Montreal, Toronto) have more victories in total. 

Certainly, Jaime is not as good as a jouster as a swordsman, but there is no reason to doubt that he is in the top 10.

[Laughing Storm Reborn]

- Jaime is a very good jouster

- Jaime is one of the best swordsman ever (that's grrm canon, swords aren´t the only weapon though, and not the deadliest either, just to explain that he can be beaten regardless of sword skill)

- The melee he won at 13, either had crappy competition or folks were afraid to hurt the THEN heir to Casterly Rock and son of Tywin Lannister, because there´s no way a 13 year old is going to win a melee with good knights with ill intent in it