GRRM's mistake: Essos Militaries.

[Abdallah]

3 hours ago, Twenty of House Goodmen said:

The Unsullied should've been more like the Jannissaries while the Dothraki should've been more like the Seljuk Turks or Ottomans. Instead, they are both laughably clownish. Tbh, Essos in general, aside from maybe Braavos, is pretty crap. Easily the weakest part of his world.

Still, I suspect we'll see both the Dothraki and Unsullied perform well in Westeros, as unrealistic as it may be. This is still fantasy after all. Plus, it'll play up to stereotype of eastern warriors being superior to western warriors, and I honestly don't believe that Westerosi knights and armies are as competent as their real life medieval counterparts.

The Jannissaries would of been perfect to base the Unsullied on. They are elite infantry that Dany would keep in the back of the battle until it was time. They were successful at sieges, and as Archer/Infantry they could kill horses if a battle turned sour and Dany had to retreat into the hills. (though if there was a way to fit the Mamluks in as well that would be great). Seljuk Turks were fine warriors to base the Dothraki in. 

If the Dothraki and Unsullied wear armor, and learn to use Lances and Pikes they would be fine. Though Dany is also building a Westerosi army as well. the Mothers Men are a good Heavy Cav. 

[BlueNightzx]

the op made good points, but i do not believe it was a msitake of george, i believe dany will realize her folly when dealing with the forces of fAegon and Jon Connington, the golden company, disciplined, westerosi knights, heavy armored and seasoned solders, will make short work of her horde of rapers and eunuchs.

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

54 minutes ago, BlueNightzx said:

the op made good points, but i do not believe it was a msitake of george, i believe dany will realize her folly when dealing with the forces of fAegon and Jon Connington, the golden company, disciplined, westerosi knights, heavy armored and seasoned solders, will make short work of her horde of rapers and eunuchs.

...forcing her to burninate everything if she wants to win

[Trigger Warning]

The world building of Essos always just seemed like a general after thought compared to Westeros, something GRRM had to create for Dany as a hanger on to his world building in Westeros that he seems to have had a clear picture of. 

[GallowsKnight]

9 hours ago, the snow dragon said:

1Everyone seems to forget one important detail about Essos.it is to hot to wear full armor.knights are only effective in colder climate. In hot essos summer they will just boil in there own armor.fighting in less or no armor is actualy more practical.for real life example look into the jerrushilum wars between muslims and Christians.

As BBE you just drink more water. You have a gambeson between you and the mail and a surcoat over the mail to protect it from the sun. You sweat into the gambeson which keeps you cooler if not comfortable. Ocaisonal wind blows off the heat from the outer layers. Why do you think the bedouins wear so many layers and BLACK capes, not just hotpants/tanktops?

In the crusades armour (generally only mail) was very effective against arrows and both sides used it too. Plenty of Saracens would have had mail over robes, under more robes. Helmets wrapped like the Dornish.

[Trigger Warning]

10 hours ago, the snow dragon said:

1

Everyone seems to forget one important detail about Essos.it is to hot to wear full armor.knights are only effective in colder climate. In hot essos summer they will just boil in there own armor.fighting in less or no armor is actualy more practical.for real life example look into the jerrushilum wars between muslims and Christians.

 

Crusade era knights were armoured quite similarly to their Muslim equivalents. 

Let's not forget that cataphracts, the earliest example of heavily armoured cavalry originated in the Near East. 

[Abdallah]

1 hour ago, GallowsKnight said:

As BBE you just drink more water. You have a gambeson between you and the mail and a surcoat over the mail to protect it from the sun. You sweat into the gambeson which keeps you cooler if not comfortable. Ocaisonal wind blows off the heat from the outer layers. Why do you think the bedouins wear so many layers and BLACK capes, not just hotpants/tanktops?

In the crusades armour (generally only mail) was very effective against arrows and both sides used it too. Plenty of Saracens would have had mail over robes, under more robes. Helmets wrapped like the Dornish.

Thank God you understand. People assume middle easterners in the medieval age were naked it's ridiculous. Mamluks and Halqas (Arab/Kurdish/Turkish Knights) would wear Lamallar over a Turkish Dress, over mail. Armor isn't that hard to wear in the desert. Plus medieval armies would march during night to preserve their strength.  

[Abdallah]

1 hour ago, Trigger Warning said:

Crusade era knights were armoured quite similarly to their Muslim equivalents. 

Let's not forget that cataphracts, the earliest example of heavily armoured cavalry originated in the Near East. 

Yeah in fact without the horsearchers and slave soldiers the Islamic and European armies were extremely similar. 

[Poupsi]

4 hours ago, Abdallah said:

The Mamluks were bought as children, usually from Central Asian Turkic peoples and Circassians but also included Armenians, Georgians, etc, depending on the dynasty that bought them. They were trained as Horse Archers and as heavy cavalry. They remind me alot of the role the cataphract played in Byzantine and Persian armies, minus how they were recruited. They were used against Byzantine Cataphracts, Crusader Knights, Ottoman Sipahis, Mongolian Horsemen and even the Russian Imperial Guard's Cavalry when fighting for Napolean at austerlitz. They had around 1000 years of History, I'm actually planning on writing a book on them. 

Sounds great! That sounds like good material as well. 

[joluoto2]

8 hours ago, Abdallah said:

The Mamluks were bought as children, usually from Central Asian Turkic peoples and Circassians but also included Armenians, Georgians, etc, depending on the dynasty that bought them. They were trained as Horse Archers and as heavy cavalry. They remind me alot of the role the cataphract played in Byzantine and Persian armies, minus how they were recruited. They were used against Byzantine Cataphracts, Crusader Knights, Ottoman Sipahis, Mongolian Horsemen and even the Russian Imperial Guard's Cavalry when fighting for Napolean at austerlitz. They had around 1000 years of History, I'm actually planning on writing a book on them. 

They also installed two dynasties in Egypt. There was a certain danger having a slave army. Of course after their uprisings they ended up ruling Egypt until the Ottoman invasion.

[A spoon of knife and fork]

9 hours ago, Trigger Warning said:

The world building of Essos always just seemed like a general after thought compared to Westeros, something GRRM had to create for Dany as a hanger on to his world building in Westeros that he seems to have had a clear picture of. 

This.

In the end, GRRM wanted to see (fictional versions of) fabled armies of every age facing off in reality and it's no more complicated than that.  Danys forces will fare exactly as well as the plot demands, no worse or better.  Anyone who says otherwise forgets this is a character driven political drama, not historical fiction.

[Abdallah]

5 hours ago, joluoto2 said:

They also installed two dynasties in Egypt. There was a certain danger having a slave army. Of course after their uprisings they ended up ruling Egypt until the Ottoman invasion.

To be fair the Mamluks were loyal to Sultan As-Salih and his favorite wife, Shajar al Durr. Sharjar came into conflict with the son of As-Salih who was named Turanshah. He was reportedly unstable and feuded with Shajar, so the Bahri killed him and installed Shajar as Sultana.  

[Werthead]

14 hours ago, Trigger Warning said:

The world building of Essos always just seemed like a general after thought compared to Westeros, something GRRM had to create for Dany as a hanger on to his world building in Westeros that he seems to have had a clear picture of. 

Yup. Dany was originally going to stay there for a much shorter period of time and Slaver's Bay and even Qarth were added only after the series began expanding from a trilogy. So yes, Essos was originally going to be a lot less prevalent in the story than it's ended up being.

[Anthony Pirtle]

20 hours ago, lujo said:

What does she need her rape cavalry and her robot army for then?

Mopping up.

[Carey Snow]

We have to remember that the vast majority of Westerosi armies are not made up of knights or trained archers. The majority is untrained commoners very lightly armored and welding hoes and clubs, or whatever else they can find. I do expect her army to fare much worse than she expects because they do not have a clue of how to fight together. Also, her dragons are mostly untrained and unreliable. I think she losses the battle for Westeros but saves the day against the Others with her young dragons. 

[Bennis of the Brown Shield]

20 hours ago, Werthead said:

The population of Westeros is about 40-45 million, maybe 50 tops. None of the research or other suggestions really makes a bigger population work. If it was bigger, than the armies should all be considerably larger.

The population of Essos is harder to work out, but, put simply, a city of hundreds of thousands can't exist by itself. It needs very large and efficient farms, or lots of small ones, to feed and support it. Each person living and working in a city needs x number of people working in the fields to feed him or her (where x changes due to agricultural methods and technology).

Each one of the Free Cities has supporting settlements, in some cases implied and in others outright confirmed:

• Pentos has the farmsteads on the Flatlands. There isn't anything a lot bigger out there, because of the Dothraki threat, but the Flatlands are huge so there could be a lot of small farms and trading settlements out there.
• Braavos controls the coast of Essos south for 450 miles, swings across the peninsula to the east and then controls the entire west coast of Lorath Bay. There's plenty of room there for forts, towns, villages and even small cities. Braavos actually needs quite a lot of supporting infrastructure given the lack of space on the islands to grow anything.
• Lorath itself is quite small, but it does control the east coast of Lorath Bay and the small city of Morosh at the mouth of the Sarne.
• Norvos explicitly has numerous towns and villages supporting it; Daenerys passes quite a few in AGoT. It controls a lot of territory up through the hills and mountains that share its name, and it controls mines and means of transport along the surrounding rivers. The surrounding territory could be quite densely populated.
• Qohor likely has logging settlements in the Forest of Qohor and fishing and transport villages along the Qhoyne. It controls the river almost to Dagger Lake, so it needs some form of infrastructure to ensure that control.
• Myr, Tyrosh and Lys all seem to be fairly large and control significant territories extending into the Disputed Lands. The Disputed Lands themselves are likely not so well-populated but the three cities need towns and forts to enforce their claims into the disputed territory. Lys and Tyrosh also need toeholds on the mainland, which are likely sizable ports themselves. The Heel of Essos, on which the Disputed Lands sit, is also called "fertile" in the world book suggesting that even its fringes could be reasonably populous.
• Volantis appears to control the most populous territory of the Free Cities. Volon Therys, Selhorys and Valysar are each bigger than King's Landing, so Volantis is far huger still (and described as such), its population likely well north of a million people. There are also other river towns and villages on the Rhoyne, plus there's the territory Volantis controls extending west into the Disputed Lands and along the Orange Coast. The total population of Volantis's territory is likely considerably larger than any of the Seven Kingdoms, but probably not as much as the Reach.

Factored on top of that are the populations of Omber, Saath, Mantarys etc. The Slaver's Bay cities all seem to be quite large and well-populated (Meereen, at least, is probably bigger than any city we've seen apart from Volantis and Braavos, and probably bigger than King's Landing). Even taking into account western Essos only, the population seems reasonably large. There isn't enough extant canon information to declare it larger than Westeros, but it's certainly not the case it's an uninhabited, barren wasteland apart from the nine Free Cities. That certainly isn't the case.

I don't think there is any reason to believe that most Free Cities are that large. First of all, regarding the Volante "towns" of Selhorys and the rest, isn't the quote in ADWD that they're large enough to be classed as cities in Westeros, rather than larger than King's Landing? That's a very big difference, given that it could mean they're rather around the size of Gulltown or White Harbor. Volantis itself is described as previously being enormous, but at the time of the books rather run down and depopulated, with some areas even reclaimed by nature. Sounding a bit like Constantinople during the Late Medieval Period. 

As for the cities in Slaver's Bay, again, I'm not sure where the proof of them being so enormous comes from. The poster Nyrhex had a good argument against that in a previous thread I remember which was that even though Dany freed all the slaves of both Yunkai and Astapor, and a large proportion of them subsequently chose to follow her, they still "only" added up to around a hundred thousand people or so. This from cities that we know are characterized by tonnes of slaves, being in Slaver's Bay and all. 

If I recall correctly the only city in western Essos that we can be sure of is larger than King's Landing is Braavos, coming from where Arya  compares the two. But Braavos is the most powerful Free City of them all at the time of the story, so that isn't very surprising, and it isn't enough evidence for assuming that the rest of the Essosi cities are larger than the greatest Westerosi ones IMO. 

[Fredwin]

GRRMs masterful work as an author and ability to worldbuild does not extend to geography and military matters. He will readily admit this himself.

The point of ASOIAF lies within the characters and their interactions. Geography and Military plot points are just that, and only exist as framework to tell a story.

That being said, the forum is full of people like us who love to discuss Westeros geopolitical  stuff even if GRRM doesn't care so much to be accurate.

There are many inconsistencies. For instance, there are not enough cities populating planetos, there are a very small amount and the amount shown would not be able to field armies the size GRRM speaks of.

Westeros can not exist as a sovereign Kingdom so close to Essos without having either much stronger ties than it currently does, or at total war.  Somehow the bank of Braavos can push an entire medieval kingdom around with not nearly the power to do so. Even though we are privy to the small council meetings, not once does anyone care about  the warring city states often described as having massive armies right next door.

Have to cut this short but I'll resume at some point.

[Nittanian]

1 hour ago, Khaleesi did nothing wrong said:

I don't think there is any reason to believe that most Free Cities are that large. First of all, regarding the Volante "towns" of Selhorys and the rest, isn't the quote in ADWD that they're large enough to be classed as cities in Westeros, rather than larger than King's Landing? That's a very big difference, given that it could mean they're rather around the size of Gulltown or White Harbor. Volantis itself is described as previously being enormous, but at the time of the books rather run down and depopulated, with some areas even reclaimed by nature. Sounding a bit like Constantinople during the Late Medieval Period.

ADWD Tyrion V

Quote

"There's a village around every bend along the lower Rhoyne. Orchards and vineyards and fields of grain ripening in the sun, fisherfolk on the water, hot baths and sweet wines. Selhorys, Valysar, and Volon Therys are walled towns so large they would be cities in the Seven Kingdoms."

TWOIAF The Free Cities - Volantis

Quote

Since that time, the elephants—the more peaceable of the Volantene factions—have dominated the annual choosing and the office of triarch. Yet years of expansion under the tigers gave Volantis control over several lesser cities, most notable amongst them the great river "towns" of Volon Therys, Valysar, and Selhorys (each larger and more populous than King's Landing or Oldtown).

 

[Bennis of the Brown Shield]

10 minutes ago, Nittanian said:

ADWD Tyrion V

TWOIAF The Free Cities - Volantis

 

Ah, so it was from the World of Ice and Fire. I stand corrected then. Although it does seem pretty strange that it wouldn't be mentioned how incredibly huge that town Tyrion visited in ADWD was if it is indeed supposed to be larger than King's Landing, instead of it just being pointed out that it would be classed as a city rather than a town back in Westeros. 

[Abdallah]

2 hours ago, Fredwin said:

GRRMs masterful work as an author and ability to worldbuild does not extend to geography and military matters. He will readily admit this himself.

The point of ASOIAF lies within the characters and their interactions. Geography and Military plot points are just that, and only exist as framework to tell a story.

That being said, the forum is full of people like us who love to discuss Westeros geopolitical  stuff even if GRRM doesn't care so much to be accurate.

There are many inconsistencies. For instance, there are not enough cities populating planetos, there are a very small amount and the amount shown would not be able to field armies the size GRRM speaks of.

Westeros can not exist as a sovereign Kingdom so close to Essos without having either much stronger ties than it currently does, or at total war.  Somehow the bank of Braavos can push an entire medieval kingdom around with not nearly the power to do so. Even though we are privy to the small council meetings, not once does anyone care about  the warring city states often described as having massive armies right next door.

Have to cut this short but I'll resume at some point.

Yeah GRRM is a real anti war kind of guy, he isn't the kind to obsess over warrior cultures. It's too bad he didn't consult a military expert. But the books are brilliant non the less. ready for TWOW