How much of the success of the show do you contribute to Benioff and Weiss

[JonSnow4President]

I think they have done a phenomenal job of leveraging Martin's material early to bring in a large audience initially, and then pulling a classic bait and switch to appeal to the least common denominator, driving massive ratings while destroying the logic and characterization of both the underlying story and their own version of that story, while providing the bread and circuses the masses strive for with as little complexity as possible.  IMO, they are entirely responsible for the artistic success (lmao) that the show has become. They have become phenomenal tailors, dressing up a particularly ugly sow and passing it off as a high priced call girl.

[YoungGriff89]

For seasons 1-3 there were things I didn't like, but the writing was solid and the changes from book to screen were completely understandable to me.  In the live action medium, the exposition has to be on screen to be canon and it's hard to be complex when you're appealing to the masses.  Seeing Robb develop a romance with someone politically neutral made more sense than talking about it after the marriage or confusing the audience with why a member of a house loyal to the Lannisters would marry the king of the rebels they're at war with.  It also made more sense to have the Bloody Mummers just be banner men of house Bolton rather than explain who they are and what they're doing.  From a logistics standpoint it made sense to have the Blackfish fill in for the Greatjon since the actor had issues in real life.  Those decisions I give D&D a lot of credit for since they made the adaptation smoother.  

 

Season four is really where their decisions started to irritate me, and the show hasn't been the same since then.  Giving storylines to other characters (Sansa in season five, Brienne fighting the hound, Tyrion filling most of the roles across the narrow sea from ADWD, etc) and not building on previously foreshadowed events (Tysha reveal, Varys and Illyrio plotting, Roose Bolton just forgetting that he knew Ramsey was flaying Theon, etc) were horrible missteps.  If the show hadn't had all the medieval violence and sex to keep casual fans involved then it would have probably been off the air due to book fans picking it apart and giving up on it.

[khal drogon]

I wouldn't give them much credit for the story as it is GRRM's and whenever they do something themselves it sucks. But they deserve credit for the effort they put to adapt the first three books quite well(not writing of course). I like the cast, costumes, sets, locations, music. all that. I think they do a decent job doing an adaptation but they suck when they are on their own.

[The hairy bear]

Of course that the showrunners are the ultimate responsible for the final result, but I think it's not entirely fair to credit them for Nina Gold's brilliant castings, Gemma Jackson's great art design, or Michelle Clapton's costumes. Specially when they were already HBO alumni, so they weren't hand-picked by B&B.

[Lrd Commander Midnight]

They both should have stayed as close to the books as possible which they haven't. Allmost all of the major story lines and plots have come from Martin. 

They have done a handful of things that they creatively created but for the most part it's all from Martin.

i would personaly like to see them do a spinoff series of Dunk and Egg. Theres a lot there. 

But Better yet, I would love to see a show or even a book surrounding the rise of Valyria. Showing some of the different major houses the Targaryens being one of them. That would have plenty of dragons in it and wars beyound count.

[Drogonthedread]

Almost all of it when it comes to show's success

[Neds Secret]

On 13 July 2016 at 0:00 PM, JonSnow4President said:

I think they have done a phenomenal job of leveraging Martin's material early to bring in a large audience initially, and then pulling a classic bait and switch to appeal to the least common denominator, driving massive ratings while destroying the logic and characterization of both the underlying story and their own version of that story, while providing the bread and circuses the masses strive for with as little complexity as possible.  IMO, they are entirely responsible for the artistic success (lmao) that the show has become. They have become phenomenal tailors, dressing up a particularly ugly sow and passing it off as a high priced call girl.

Love it! Excellent!

[Aryya Stark]

On July 13, 2016 at 6:00 AM, JonSnow4President said:

I think they have done a phenomenal job of leveraging Martin's material early to bring in a large audience initially, and then pulling a classic bait and switch to appeal to the least common denominator, driving massive ratings while destroying the logic and characterization of both the underlying story and their own version of that story, while providing the bread and circuses the masses strive for with as little complexity as possible.  IMO, they are entirely responsible for the artistic success (lmao) that the show has become. They have become phenomenal tailors, dressing up a particularly ugly sow and passing it off as a high priced call girl.

Couldn't agree more!

[StoneColdJorahMormont]

Massive, i had never heard of the books if I'm being honest as I don't read, always prefer visuals to accompany a story. Same with Harry Potter and Lord of the rings.

So i'm sure most non book readers had never heard of the books before the show aired.

Everything about the opening episode had to be perfectly chosen as the episode itself wasn't standout from any other fantasy story obviously the whole story is but the first episode felt like any other similar fantasy show. The casting of mostly British actors was the first good decision gave it more grit as i find British people have a more rough n ready look to them than American actors, uneven teeth etc...

Hiring the guys that did the opening theme and visuals was groundbreaking when as an opening credits ever been so entertaining ?

Location,Location Location.

Details right down to house sigils in the background.

Casting unknowns for the most part was brilliant and having one A lister in Sean Bean was perfect because when he was killed it had much more of an impact than having someone unknown being killed.

They hit all the right spots.

 

 

 

[Not a kneeler]

I am speaking from the position of a book lover, and yet I give high kudos to D&D. There have been missteps along the way, some of them major, some less so and we can lay those at the feet of the producers, but we will be getting a complete product from them. I give them many thanks for making the decision to stick to 8 seasons, with the last two shortened to satisfy HBO. If they had tried to do a faithful adaption of the books there would be far fewer viewers and they would all be buying cliff notes if they weren't the sort of hard core book readers found in these forums. Even the casual reader would need a guide book. That is not good television. They have don't a remarkable job paring this behemoth down to make a product that is understandable.

The fact that they don't have original source material to work from anymore is not their fault, without naming names.

They will finish it up in two more years while the actors playing these parts still look believable. And we will have a beginning, a middle, and an end, meanwhile seeing unbelievable lavish settings, beautiful costumes, great acting mostly and a understandable storyline. And let's not forget the music.

Is it always cogent? No. Is it complete in every detail. Hell, no. But it is still the best thing on TV.

[StoneColdJorahMormont]

On ‎13‎/‎07‎/‎2016 at 3:00 AM, JonSnow4President said:

I think they have done a phenomenal job of leveraging Martin's material early to bring in a large audience initially, and then pulling a classic bait and switch to appeal to the least common denominator, driving massive ratings while destroying the logic and characterization of both the underlying story and their own version of that story, while providing the bread and circuses the masses strive for with as little complexity as possible.  IMO, they are entirely responsible for the artistic success (lmao) that the show has become. They have become phenomenal tailors, dressing up a particularly ugly sow and passing it off as a high priced call girl.

Yup pretty much, every detail has in the books has been taken on board and if need be remodelled to work on the big screen, enough nudity to be shocking without being porn, enough gore to make you look away without it becoming sadistic, choosing the right composer for the music and all the imagery was a masterclass, I don't think there has ever been an interactive opening credits before Game of Thrones or at least not to the scale they use every episode... the way they show what places are being visited and updating with Sigil depending on who has control of where. All these tiny details is what sucks people in along with the great story GRRM has provided and of course the great casting, using a lot of British actors adds to the grit.

[Anton Martell]

On 12 juillet 2016 at 2:40 PM, The hairy bear said:

I think that they were very important to the show early success, although I would put them only third in importance after GRRM and casting/actors (I'm not sure in what order I would place the first two).

I fail to see that B&B have made "many brilliant adaptation decisions". Some of the ones you mention are the logical translation from book to screen and are decisions that any showrunner would have made (talking eagles, 95% of the songs and disguised Éowyn/Dernhelm were also axed in the LotR adaptation, but that's not what made the movies great).

Many of their adaptations decisions have been questionable at best, and some of the material they have come up with is subpar. Dany's plot in Qarth during season 2, Robb's romance with Talissa, Pod's sexual prowess, Dorne,... They have also changed their minds during the series, leading to dead ends and hanging threads: Tysha was introduced in S1 but then not mentioned during Tywin's murder. Mel, Beric and Thoros were included in Arya's murder list, but then removed from it without explanation.

While they have made a lot of adequate decisions, it is fair to say that they have made plenty of mistakes too. And that's no entering into the terrain of "tone" and "thematic approach", that is much harder to evaluate objectively.

 

Dorne was one of the worst plotline I've ever seen. So sad when it's a great part of the books (I'm biased, I love Dorne :D)

On 12 juillet 2016 at 3:13 PM, The Knight in Motley said:

I think from the beginning we can see some of their questionable choices: Ros for example.  I'm not going to say everything they did turned out wrong, (I loved the Arya & Tywin scenes, mostly due to Charles Dance) but I think the source material and the crew get at least equal credit for the show's success, and HBO for taking the risk.

I'd give them maybe 25-33% of the success for pulling it all together.

On the other hand, I'd give them close to 80-90% of the blame for what is wrong with the show.

I liked Ros character. But other than that I agree with you a lot

On 12 juillet 2016 at 3:24 PM, SuperMario said:

I give them whatever the amount of credit is merited for putting the show on the screen, but that's about it. The first season of the show was almost spot-on to the first book, so their interpretive skills of great text were good at that time, and that got the show rolling.

After that, the show basically became Skynet and was self-aware and ran itself. Really anyone could have run the show by season 4. When you can create the mess that is Dorne among other storylines and still have unwavering support, definitely the show itself is unstoppable.

 

On 12 juillet 2016 at 10:20 PM, Facebookless Man said:

Hard to tell.

The show probably didn't need to be so absolutely moronic to be successful, but the dumbing down, tits and ass, frat jokes and violent nihilist badassery surely helped a lot. More talented people might not have shat on the source material so heartily.

 

 

All those quote summarize my feeling basically. I began with the series before the books, so I'll give them credit for that, and for season 1-2 and some part of 3 globally (even if I'm sure I'd see a lot of issues if I rewatched it now that I've read the books). 

I also give them a lot of credit with the hire they did: most directors, 90% of the actors and most of the production value. 

But when it comes to the story and the writing, it's honestly very subpar. They destroyed some plotline or even reversed them completely (Ellaria for example, the whole Jaime reversal...). I understand some choices or that you have to merge some plotline but some choices were just moronic (like Sansa not saying anything about the Vale just because they wanted a cool cliffhanger during the battle... without any coherence).

 

But the dumbing down seems to be a success with a lot of people, so let's give them credit for that. But I can't believe people still think it's the greatest TV show ever...

 

[JonSnow4President]

22 hours ago, StoneColdJorahMormont said:

Yup pretty much, every detail has in the books has been taken on board and if need be remodelled to work on the big screen, enough nudity to be shocking without being porn, enough gore to make you look away without it becoming sadistic, choosing the right composer for the music and all the imagery was a masterclass, I don't think there has ever been an interactive opening credits before Game of Thrones or at least not to the scale they use every episode... the way they show what places are being visited and updating with Sigil depending on who has control of where. All these tiny details is what sucks people in along with the great story GRRM has provided and of course the great casting, using a lot of British actors adds to the grit.

I think you misunderstood me when you quoted me.  I was saying they are responsible for turning a nuanced, character driven drama (that they initially did a decent job at adapting) into something I would call hot garbage, but I don't want to insult hot garbage.

[StoneColdJorahMormont]

5 minutes ago, JonSnow4President said:

I think you misunderstood me when you quoted me.  I was saying they are responsible for turning a nuanced, character driven drama (that they initially did a decent job at adapting) into something I would call hot garbage, but I don't want to insult hot garbage.

No i agreed with everything you said my first few words were in agreement to you, then i went off on why i think they initially made it a big hit but was agreeing on how the show has since pandered to what gets ratings.

[Noel E Mahc]

On 7/12/2016 at 3:34 PM, Werthead said:

 

For the actual quality of the show, George's story and characters are clearly the main draw. None of D&D's own characters or storylines have really been popular, and their highest-profile changes (faffing in Season 2, the Robb/Talisa romance and Dorne) have also largely been the most unpopular with both book readers and TV-only viewers. Season 6, where the mixing up of the two is far less clear, has been a major exception to that, but of course it remains to be seen how much of that material was based on George's notes and how much was 100% their invention.

My primary issues with D&D are them not more clearly determining on an early direction for the show and an end point, which has led to abandoned story threads and big problems with characterisation (taking Show Jaime in the same direction as Book Jaime and then abruptly 180ing and reversing him at least back some of the way along that arc is bizarre). There's also the lack of a solid thematic focus. This disparaged any literary quality of the books early on and that ended any chance of the show rising above the pulp fantasy elements to make more interesting comments about human nature as the books do. The TV show instead just makes very obvious comments about power and brutality without engaging in a deeper examination of what that means. From the same studio as Deadwood, The Wire and The Sopranos, that's pretty poor going.

Totally agree.

[mafro987daboss]

Think about it this way: is their work something that many other producers/writers etc couldn't do better? NO. Things about the show that have been done right (locations, casting, set building, cinematography) can't really be directly attributed to them, while the awful plot/characterisation decisions can be.

Totally agree to the comment making comparison to other HBO shows. What does Game of Thrones have to say/what does it comment on on a wider level? The answer is nothing in comparison to even The Leftovers (also a current HBO show).

[lancerman]

There's thousands of book to screen adaptations. There have been few as successful. Despite what some would have you believe, there are few that would be as faithful given the amount of material.

Every person who read the books had their own take and idea in their minds eye of the material. D&D brought their version to life and it became a massive hit. They weren't always right. But they nailed the casting for the most part. They had the pacing and storypoints down. They knew what made the show popular and stuck with it even if it meant not being entirely accurate to the source.

George wrote a  great series. But when it comes to the screen, it was essentially a really elaborate screenplay of story points. You have to figure out how to break it up by episode, write an episode, get the production logistics in place, hire the right actors and crew, get the setting and effects right. There's so much that goes into it and you have to give them credit for having the all the right people.

I know there is temptation to say "well George wrote the story". George wrote a lot of television episodes over his career. The best executed were always the ones headed by David and Dan.

 

 

 

 

[Marcus Agrippa]

So. Much. Speculation. This thread is a crime against logic. Anyway, there is simply no evidence that is dan & daves concerted efforts. It could have been a right place right time, it could have been dan & dan, it could have been Neds death, it could have been the tits ect. Nothing has been flawless, but there was an uptick in interest when ned died. We know the first pilot was awful, and we know that george heavily influenced the first 2 seasons. As is, I doubt we will ever know. The best possible answer is that it was many things. I thnk LOTR and Harry Potter provided a boost to this series, because a lot of the groups that watched those are watching this, george also had a fandom (not as large) but one that still spread the word. Once again though, there is far to many factors to consider, and ultimately, this shouldn't be a thing until 10 to 15 years from now where we can look at the show and come up with the statement "How does it hold up, does it make sense, and how does it feel after?"

[tormond]

On 7/11/2016 at 11:59 PM, Godbreaker said:

Do you think they played a huge role in making the show amazing....or do you think it was more of Martin's work being so good

 

could anyone of made Game of Thrones, using Martin's material...or do you think there is no way this show would of been half as good without Benioff and Weiss

The casting was great. Sean bean as ned stark, was great. jon snow, arya, most of the casting was perfect.whom ever chose the director for  Hardhome, The door, battle of the bastards and winds of winter did a great job. I think they deserve a lot praise because it could had gone so wrong.

[MoreOrLess]

On ‎13‎/‎07‎/‎2016 at 3:00 AM, JonSnow4President said:

I think they have done a phenomenal job of leveraging Martin's material early to bring in a large audience initially, and then pulling a classic bait and switch to appeal to the least common denominator, driving massive ratings while destroying the logic and characterization of both the underlying story and their own version of that story, while providing the bread and circuses the masses strive for with as little complexity as possible.  IMO, they are entirely responsible for the artistic success (lmao) that the show has become. They have become phenomenal tailors, dressing up a particularly ugly sow and passing it off as a high priced call girl.

Honestly I think your talking nonsense, Martins readers make up a very small percentage of viewers. All that's really on display is how defencive a lot of readers are about the material.