Was Daeron II really Dragonknight's son?

[Valens]

I think that is one of these theories/rumours that are never meant to be cleared up. Daeron COULD be the son of Aemon, but it is not sure. It is because of his gentle nature and his dissimilarity with and dislike of his father, official father. But fathers and sons have been very dissimilar before and after, so that alone is no proof. All we have is RUMOURS. And they were enough to plunge the realm into a short war.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

On 7/20/2016 at 8:12 AM, LionoftheWest said:

I will say that no, Daeron is not the son of the Dragonknight and there are plenty of close relatives in the books who are not very similar to each other. If we also look how a predecessor's actions can shape his successor we can also see a trend of a bad ruler followed by a good ruler, or at least a ruler who does a 180 degree turn in policies in relation to his forebearer.

And if Daeron II was the son of the Dragonknight it would of course mean that the Blackfyres are the correct heirs to the throne, and I'm not ready to accept that. No more than that the Dragonknight would have forsken his Kingsguard vows to sire children with the queen, when he was ready to give his life for a king he don't seems to have liked very much.

No it wouldn't. Trueborns come before legitimized bastards, and Naerys gave Aegon a trueborn daughter whose paternity he never questioned. The line would pass to Daenerys' first born son with Maron Martell, then to any subsequent sons. If the Martell heirs failed to have sons then the line would go back to Daenerys, her daughters or any sons the daughters had (starting with firstborn daughter's firstborn son).

After all the trueborn options had been exhausted THEN would come the legitimized males starting with Daemon Blackfyre and his children, followed by Aegor and any kids he had and Bloodraven, then all those girls Aegon sired with noble ladies. Sheira Seastar would be dead last in line as Aegon's youngest legitimized daughter.

[Lion of the West]

10 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

No it wouldn't. Trueborns come before legitimized bastards, and Naerys gave Aegon a trueborn daughter whose paternity he never questioned. The line would pass to Daenerys' first born son with Maron Martell, then to any subsequent sons. If the Martell heirs failed to have sons then the line would go back to Daenerys, her daughters or any sons the daughters had (starting with firstborn daughter's firstborn son).

After all the trueborn options had been exhausted THEN would come the legitimized males starting with Daemon Blackfyre and his children, followed by Aegor and any kids he had and Bloodraven, then all those girls Aegon sired with noble ladies. Sheira Seastar would be dead last in line as Aegon's youngest legitimized daughter.

I thought that it was unclear on that point. But if it is like this then I'll be very happy that the Blackfyres would not have claim to the throne.

[Lord Martin]

Fully agree w/ Lord Varys on this one.  Aegean IV only raised the issue of Daeron being false born when their relationship soured.  It was his best means of keeping Daeron in check.

I do believe that Aemon and Naerys had a depth of love that went beyond mere siblings, but given how delicate Naerys was and how the masters advised her not to have more children, I cannot see Aemon risking impregnating her.  I don't see it ever getting physical.  

 

[Lady Blizzardborn]

12 minutes ago, LionoftheWest said:

I thought that it was unclear on that point. But if it is like this then I'll be very happy that the Blackfyres would not have claim to the throne.

It's a bit iffy on the women inheriting in their own right since Rhaenyra, but the trueborns are always ahead of the legitimized bastards. Remember even though Aegon II technically won the war (if only by outliving his rival) the succession continued through Rhaenyra's oldest living son, so if FirstDaenerys had sons then the throne would have passed to them. 

As it's been explained it's supposed to be Trueborn males > Trueborn females > legitimized males > legitimized females. But given the time setting it tends to depend on who is willing to wage war or push the point. One might say that the succession is rather fluid.

[LIVIA]

And one more point: GRRM considers Aegon the Unworthy a very tragical character. What else can be tragical about such a fucker, if not being obliged to acknowledge the child of his most desired woman and her lover as his own son and heir? If Am+N=D is true, Aegon was actually an unhappy man, especially given the fact that he was full brother of both lovers and the father proved unable (or unwilling) to solve the problem...

(P.S.: it seems to me that the story of Viserys II's family reveals all the flaws of Targaryen incestuous mariages, including deformation and destruction of all family relationships)

[LIVIA]

20 hours ago, Lord Martin said:

I do believe that Aemon and Naerys had a depth of love that went beyond mere siblings, but given how delicate Naerys was and how the masters advised her not to have more children, I cannot see Aemon risking impregnating her.  I don't see it ever getting physical.  

 

Naerys got the warning only after the birth of her firstborn. Like any other vesterosy lady, she was to be wedded and bedded anyway

[Raisin' Bran]

20 hours ago, Lord Martin said:

I do believe that Aemon and Naerys had a depth of love that went beyond mere siblings, but given how delicate Naerys was and how the masters advised her not to have more children, I cannot see Aemon risking impregnating her.  I don't see it ever getting physical.  

I think this is a very good argument against. She had always been fragile though, well before her first full-term pregnancy

4 minutes ago, LIVIA said:

Naerys got the warning only after the birth of her firstborn. Like any other vesterosy lady, she was to be wedded and bedded anyway

That does not really say anything about what Aemon would have done.

[Lord Varys]

On 21.9.2016 at 5:49 AM, Lady Blizzardborn said:

It's a bit iffy on the women inheriting in their own right since Rhaenyra, but the trueborns are always ahead of the legitimized bastards. Remember even though Aegon II technically won the war (if only by outliving his rival) the succession continued through Rhaenyra's oldest living son, so if FirstDaenerys had sons then the throne would have passed to them. 

As it's been explained it's supposed to be Trueborn males > Trueborn females > legitimized males > legitimized females. But given the time setting it tends to depend on who is willing to wage war or push the point. One might say that the succession is rather fluid.

There is no clear succession on any of that. It would depend on the king to decide what status exactly his bastards had, and whether legitimized bastard sons of noble birth would come before or after his daughter Daenerys or her sons. Aegon didn't care about any of that but George does, and he specifically mentions the uncertainty where the hell legitimized bastards come in relation to trueborn children (and he doesn't give us an answer to that).

The succession of Aegon II was recently cleared up (or muddied further) by Ran when he told us that Corlys Velaryon effectively forced Aegon II to spare Aegon the Younger's life (against Alicent's wishes), betroth him to Jaehaera, and name the couple co-heirs in exchange for Corlys' support (apparently the Greens thought they desperately needed the Velaryon fleet).

Aegon II and Alicent never saw Rhaenyra's son by Daemon as anything but a the spawn of traitors and would never have allowed him to marry Jaehaera or ascend the Iron Throne if they had had the power to prevent that. And any truly loyal Greens would have thought pretty much the same (but then, it doesn't seem that there were any such left after Borros Baratheon lost on the Kingsroad). And Corlys Velaryon most likely was the man behind the murder of Aegon II anyway. Not to mention that somebody must have made the decision to imprison Alicent for life.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Did not know Ran had given us more info on the end of the Dance and subsequent happenings. Also, keep in mind that I haven't read TWOIAF yet so anything in there I might not know.

But my second paragraph stands. The succession is supposed to go a certain way...in theory. In practice it gets a lot more complicated. As GRRM has said, and written, kings (with or without dragons) have a way of making their own rules.

[GallowsKnight]

Eh. It's impossible to tell without DNA testing. Both have Targ blood. Personality as mentioned in this thread means next to nothing in this case. I mean how much like Bloodraven is Aegon the Unworthy? And he's a bastard. And Aegon and Aemon were brothers so even if personality has genetic roots, they are both genetically similar to begin with.

With for example Joffrey/Tommen/Myrcella we have an actual confession of infidelity and avoiding siring Robert's child and the book of lineages. Even then we can only make an informed decision that they're likely not Roberts.

Same with Harwin Strong and Laenor. The colors of the childrens hair gives us an idea.

But here? No chance without DNA testing or word of god (GRRM)

[LIVIA]

On 23.09.2016 at 7:34 AM, GallowsKnight said:

Eh. It's impossible to tell without DNA testing.

DNA testing is absolutely useless is this situation.) It indicates kinship but not the degree of it. Aegon is Daeron's uncle anyway, as well as Aemon.

[Lost Melnibonean]

52 minutes ago, LIVIA said:

DNA testing is absolutely useless is this situation.) It indicates kinship but not the degree of it. Aegon is Daeron's uncle anyway, as well as Aemon.

Whether it can be proven or not, it really makes no difference for the claims in story. What matters is what the storyteller is telling the reader... 

Daenerys (and Jon) descends from the Dragonknight. Aegon descends from the Unworthy.

[Masha]

On 9/18/2016 at 3:01 PM, LIVIA said:

I suppose he was. GRRM about Naerys:

But she also had a daugher, Daenerys, who was unquestionably fathered by Aegon. Yes, Naerys died when Daenerys was only 6 years old, but mothers are usually quite taken with their little children, especially born so late. Why did she love son more than daughter? The only reason I see is because Daenerys wasn't sired by her beloved man, unlike Daeron.

Moreover, considering the fact that four Naerys' sons by Aegon were stillborn or died few hours after birth, it's possible that this couple couldn't have a living boy at all because of genetical incompatibility (Naerys' son by Aemon was not strong and healthy too, but at least he survived). By the way, Henry VIII also had problems fathering a male heir, but he was not so fixed on his sister... While Aegon obviously was, otherwise he immideately let/made her become a septa and married another woman. But he didn't take another wife even after Naerys' death.

However, I don't think Naerys and Aemon broke their vows. I hope Naerys conceived before wedding, but Viserys forced Aegon to keep silence in order not to disgrace his youngest children. After the death of his father Aegon was quite afraid of Aemon (though tried to threaten him through Hastwick's accusation and cruel punishment of TT), and after the death of Aemon he had completely lost any chance to prove that Daeron wasn't his son.

That's my version.

The thing about Daenerys not smiling at her little girl. First of all, little Daenerys was not born till Daeron reached maturity, and till then Naerys only had Daeron (and Aemon to smile at). Plus after Daenerys was born, Naerys starting ailing and never fully recovered, so chances of seeing her in public, especially with her child, was quite rare.  So you can't really say that Naerys didn't love her daughter as well as her son. She just never got a chance to show it and she didn't have enough strength left by that time.

So that really is not a proof that Naerys didn't love her daughter as much as her son, because he son was Aemon's child.

[The Hammer of Justice]

I think that's one of those mysteries that will never be solved. I believe Daeron II is the son of Aegon IV, not the Dragonknight, just because he was the one who started the rumor in order to desinherit his own son

Where is Bran the Dreamer when we need him to travel through the weirwood net and gives us some answers?!?!

 

Just a question: Who is older, Daeron II or Daemon Blackfyre?? Do we have that information?

[shockwave]

2 minutes ago, The Hammer of Justice said:

I think that's one of those mysteries that will never be solved. I believe Daeron II is the son of Aegon IV, not the Dragonknight, just because he was the one who started the rumor in order to desinherit his own son

Where is Bran the Dreamer when we need him to travel through the weirwood net and gives us some answers?!?!

 

Just a question: Who is older, Daeron II or Daemon Blackfyre?? Do we have that information?

Daeron II is older. He was born during Aegon III's reign. Daeron was probably already married to the martell girl when Daemon was born. Daemon is close in age to Daeron's son Baelor Breakspear.

[Lost Melnibonean]

2 minutes ago, The Hammer of Justice said:

I think that's one of those mysteries that will never be solved. I believe Daeron II is the son of Aegon IV, not the Dragonknight, just because he was the one who started the rumor in order to desinherit his own son

Where is Bran the Dreamer when we need him to travel through the weirwood net and gives us some answers?!?!

 

Just a question: Who is older, Daeron II or Daemon Blackfyre?? Do we have that information?

Daeron II is older. Daemon was of an age with Daemerys, Daeron's much younger sister.

[The Hammer of Justice]

I see, then the only thing supporting Daemon Blackfyre's claim to the throne is the rumor that Daeron is a bastard, because legitimized bastards > unlegitimized bastards in the succession line

 

[shockwave]

7 minutes ago, The Hammer of Justice said:

I see, then the only thing supporting Daemon Blackfyre's claim to the throne is the rumor that Daeron is a bastard, because legitimized bastards > unlegitimized bastards in the succession line

 

I find actually Daemon's best claim to be his descendance from Daena the Defiant and so Aegon III.

[Emie]

I don't think Aemon was the father of Daeron II. His father was Aegon the Unworthy. The reason is simply because of how devout and religious Naerys and even Aemon were. They were both extremely loyal and honorable in the same way Ned Stark was. Aemon wouldn't forget his vows of Knighthood to father a bastard, and Naerys was so devout in her faith she wanted to become a Septa. She doesn't seem like the type of person to cheat on her husband and give birth to a bastard. Even though she clearly didn't love her husband she would have still believed in being honorable with her marriage vows. Like others have said, Aegon just started those rumors for spite because Daeron wasn't like him.