Most unintelligent character in the series?

[SeanF]

I'd exclude anyone who has a disability.

I'd then choose either Robert Baratheon or Victarion Greyjoy.  Or perhaps. Kraznys Mo Nakloz.

[John Doe]

On 23.7.2016 at 1:35 AM, AdesteFideles said:

Victarion Greyjoy. Especially as he thinks he's so clever.

Victarion isn't that dumb, he sees through Eurons lies pretty wuickly. 

[khal drogon]

1 hour ago, Oakhearts head said:

Ned was naive, not stupid. He was a fish out of water in Kings Landing and was too naive to assume people would just do the right thing. Not to mention completely underestimating Cersei. 

That, or the definition of stupidity is different to some people.

Edit: Also, it's not hard to see how Ned could have trusted Littlefinger in a moment of desperation. Only we as readers are aware of how much of a threat Petyr is.

Naivity is an acceptable reason for a 12 year old not for a grownup person who was also a ruler. 

[khal drogon]

20 minutes ago, John Doe said:

Victarion isn't that dumb, he sees through Eurons lies pretty wuickly. 

Only because of his past experiences.   It is no big deal.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

57 minutes ago, John Doe said:

Victarion isn't that dumb, he sees through Eurons lies pretty wuickly. 

Quote

 

GRRM also noted to one question that he thinks Victarion is "dumb as a stump".http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Seattle_Town_Hall_QA

 

[Oakhearts head]

1 hour ago, khal drogon said:

Naivity is an acceptable reason for a 12 year old not for a grownup person who was also a ruler. 

In an environment he wasn't qualified for. Ned was a terrific Warden of the North and at the very least would have been a fair Hand, if only for the fact that he wasn't a game player. There is no rational argument of Ned being an idiot, when he's clearly one of more level-headed and rational people in the series. 

[Jeeves]

Most Unintelligent Character in the Series?

The boy who knows nothing.  Jon Snow.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

4 hours ago, khal drogon said:

Naivity is an acceptable reason for a 12 year old not for a grownup person who was also a ruler. 

Any 12 year old? Like those naive enough to be in their family bussiness and knew nothing more than that?

[khal drogon]

23 hours ago, Oakhearts head said:

In an environ mecoml wasn't qualified for. Ned was comrrific Warden of the North and at the very least would have been a fair Hand, if only for the fact that he wasn't a game player. There is no rational argument of Ned being an idiot, when he's clearly one of more level-headed and rational people in the series. 

 

23 hours ago, Oakhearts head said:

In an environment he wasn't qualified for. Ned was a terrific Warden of the North and at the very least would have been a fair Hand, if only for the fact that he wasn't a game player. There is no rational argument of Ned being an idiot, when he's clearly one of more level-headed and rational people in the series. 

Yes but he put himself in that position which he has only himself to be blamed. He complains that King's Landing is a pit of vipers and then proceeds with a plan which involves trusting strangers and hoping things go his way and how did that end. 

[khal drogon]

19 hours ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Any 12 year oldd? Like those naive enough to be in their family bussiness and knew nothing more than that?

What are you talking about? 

Mm..I think you meant those "more than 12 years old slavers" in Astapor. I'm pretty sure they are well aware of their family business. A Westerosi equivalent is Bran an 8 year old knowing about their family business, ruling. If Bran could understand much about his business then I am sure those above 12 years old slavers who had 4 more years of brain development a lot more.

[hitman47]

Cersei Lannister

Tywin Lannister

Robb Stark

Kevan Lannister

Jaime lannister

Joffrey Baratheon

Sansa Stark

Ned Stark

Robert Baratheon

 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

10 hours ago, khal drogon said:

What are you talking about? 

Mm..I think you meant those "more than 12 years old slavers" in Astapor. I'm pretty sure they are well aware of their family business. A Westerosi equivalent is Bran an 8 year old knowing about their family business, ruling. If Bran could understand much about his business then I am sure those above 12 years old slavers who had 4 more years of brain development a lot more.

They were 12 and had no power over it, like in Westeros where they need a regent and they cannot make the decisions of their own. If you accept that Dany in 13 was a child and had no power over her destiny there is no reason why those children in 12 had.

[dariopatke]

11 hours ago, khal drogon said:

What are you talking about? 

Mm..I think you meant those "more than 12 years old slavers" in Astapor. I'm pretty sure they are well aware of their family business. A Westerosi equivalent is Bran an 8 year old knowing about their family business, ruling. If Bran could understand much about his business then I am sure those above 12 years old slavers who had 4 more years of brain development a lot more.

It is monstrous, counterproductive and stupid to kill any slaver (head of family), there are people like Yezzan who treat slaves fair. And to kill people who were born with that name... well she is no better than "Usurper" she hates so much, at least he didnt want to kill her and Viserys. She is as bad as any slaver with that action... and what she did to those 160 masters.

11 hours ago, hitman47 said:

Cersei Lannister

Tywin Lannister

Robb Stark

Kevan Lannister

Jaime lannister

Joffrey Baratheon

Sansa Stark

Ned Stark

Robert Baratheon

 

If we exclude Joffrey, Sansa and Ned you named some of the most intelligent people in series. 

Cersei is smart, she has good plans, its just her madness and paranoia that blinds her, but she most certainly isnt unintelligent. She had some bad plans (getting Robert drunk in order to kill him and not having one blue eyed black haired child, lol), but had some good plans (wildfire, sending men to NW to kill Jon, plan to kill Trystane and blame Tyrion,...).

Tywin...no reason to discuss here.

Robb is military genius, very creative and adaptive, his mistakes were related with honour, not stupidity. He was also a good scheemer.

Kevan was smart enough to know his place and prosper greatly, he is landless knight who pays 200 knights after all. His time as Regent showed us how capable he was and the fact that Varys had to kill him show us how big threat he is. He was also commander of center at Green Fork, Tywin chose him for a reason.

Jaime managed to lift two sieges with his brain. Was smart to decline Handship and throw letter in fire.

And Sansa and Ned were not unintelligent, just average and way to emotional.

Joffrey was unintelligent.

Robert is proven battle commander, he was smart to do a forced march on Summerhall and flee north after Ashford. He was smart enough to pardon Jaime, marry Cersei, make Jon his Hand and raise ser Barristan to LC, he was also smart to make friends from enemies, to stay as close as he can with siblings and name them to SC,... His bad descisions were letting Varys stay, naming Jaime WoE (Stannis is PERFECT for that), Tyrek and Lancel and other raise of Lannister influence, but no one is perfect, my point is that he isnt unintelligent. He loved hunting, whoring, drinking and tourneys, but that doesnt make him unintelligent

[Jon's Queen Consort]

17 minutes ago, dariopatke said:

It is monstrous, counterproductive and stupid to kill any slaver (head of family),

I am not sure about that. The slavers who treated their slaved badly had to be punished. However killing someone for doing something that it was legal before her  subjugation is vile. She forced her own beliefs on them and then killed them without giving them a chance to change. Her father would had been proud.

[dariopatke]

33 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

I am not sure about that. The slavers who treated their slaved badly had to be punished. However killing someone for doing something that it was legal before her  subjugation is vile. She forced her own beliefs on them and then killed them without giving them a chance to change. Her father would had been proud.

Of course, I never said they shouldnt, there should be some sort of trial where slaves can tell how master (and his/hers family) treated them. I agree about everything you said.

For example, Kraznys is a monster. That bear and three boys... just terrible. But who is she to judge them? Slaves should be jugdes on that.

But look at Skahaz and Hizhdar, yes they are oportunistic, but they are willing to embrace new life, if they lived in Astapor they would die. And that cupbearers she loves so much, some of them surely had a cousin as old as he/she is that was killed in Astapor and yet she is considered saint for not killing hostages. 

I am truly scared to see her embracing fire and blood even more.

[khal drogon]

5 hours ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

They were 12 and had no power over it, like in Westeros where they need a regent and they cannot make the decisions of their own. If you accept that Dany in 13 was a child and had no power over her destiny there is no reason why those children in 12 had.

And where the book says that those above 12 year old had regents and they cannot make decisions on their own? We see a lot of people at that age making decisions Dany included. Also the assumption is if someone is given a family business then it means they know something about it. I have to differentiate business and ruling unlike my previous post. Ruling means you get pushed to it at any age so sometimes they need regents. But business means we have to know about it. 

4 hours ago, dariopatke said:

It is monstrous, counterproductive and stupid to kill any slaver (head of family), there are people like Yezzan who treat slaves fair. And to kill people who were born with that name... well she is no better than "Usurper" she hates so much, at least he didnt want to kill her and Viserys. She is as bad as any slaver with that action... and what she did to those 160 masters.

We aren't even talking about that and it's an entirely different argument. This is not 'that' thread where you can hate on Dany. 

[khal drogon]

3 hours ago, dariopatke said:

Of course, I nevwelaid they shouldnt, there should be some sort of trial where slaves can tell how master (and his/hers family) treated them. I agree about everything you said.

For example, Kraznys is a monster. That bear and three boys... just terrible. But who is she to judge them? Slaves should be jugdes on that.

But look at Skahaz and Hizhdar, yes they are oportunistic, but they are willing to embrace new life, if they lived in Astapor they would die. And that cupbearers she loves so much, some of them surely had a cousin as old as he/she is that was killed in Astapor and yet she is considered saint for not killing hostages. 

I am truly scared to see her embracing fire and blood even more.

Only if those slaves had the power to judge them.

You are talking about some ideal method of treating. Like slaves should be asked how much their masters treated them to know how much they deserved death. But this idea is from a very modern point of view like how a jury would treat criminals. Anyway for that period or how the slavers are described this is ineffective. For example, Hizdahr seems to be a nice guy and even he treats his pit fighters well(though loosing lions on two dwarves) he has connection with the harpy which does killings. Yezzan a person who treats his slaves well is fighting for Yunkish side which wants slavery. You could say he don't deserve death but he is for an evil system. For example people who are called traitors are executed and sometimes these people may not have done any harm to anyone but they would be executed just because he had a different view from the ruler. From a modern POV it was taken into account his actions and if it really warrant death. In a medieval system he is dead.

[The Fresh PtwP]

Balon Greyjoy...because yeah let's take on all 7 kingdoms led by a king known for his battle prowess. And you know what else? After losing a couple of sons in that last debacle, let's try it again against an undefeated KitN. Also, seriously, what's even in the North? lumber? thralls? Balon=not smart.

[khal drogon]

7 minutes ago, The Fresh PtwP said:

Balon Greyjoy...because yeah let's take on all 7 kingdoms led by a king known for his battle prowess. And you know what else? After losing a couple of sons in that last debacle, let's try it again against an undefeated KitN. Also, seriously, what's even in the North? lumber? thralls? Balon=not smart.

He wants to be independent. What else he could do other than oppose that king? Though I agree the second plan has its flaws. 

[Walda]

7 hours ago, dariopatke said:

people like Yezzan who treat slaves fair.

Just like to point out, the character that said

Quote

“Yezzan is a kindly and benevolent master.”

(ADwD,Ch.47 Tyrion X)

was Nurse. You know:

Quote

"If you please him, you will be well rewarded. If not …” He slapped Tyrion across the face.
“You will want to be careful with Nurse,” said Sweets when the overseer had departed. “He is the only true monster here.”

(ADwD,Ch.47 Tyrion X)

that guy.

So what do we learn of Yezzen as a master, apart from Nurse's claims?

Tyrion's first thought on seeing him at the auction is to pity the slaves who bear his palanquin. Notice that Jorah, who is also his slave, is chained to a stake outside, while Tyrion gets his bath and beard trim. Remember the Tolosi slingers that Nurse promised would be their fate if they ran. Not signs of a universally benevolent master.

Sweets suggests they try to make him forget he is dying  because then Yezzen can be generous. An ambivalent character reference, full of unspoken 'but ifs', from the slave who claims to be Yezzen's most beloved, and has presumably enjoyed his benevolence most.

The first observation we have of him personally, as a master:

Quote

Their master Yezzan laughed loudest and longest whenever one of his dwarfs suffered a fall or took a blow, his whole vast body shaking like suet in an earthquake.

(ADwD,Ch.47 Tyrion X)

Then, the guests have Tyrion play Cyvasse,

Quote

“I am only a slave. My noble master decides when and who I play.” Tyrion turned to Yezzan. “Master?”
The yellow lord seemed amused by the notion. “What stakes do you propose, Captain?”
“If I win, give this slave to me,” said Plumm.
“No,” Yezzan zo Qaggaz said. “But if you can defeat my dwarf, you may have the price I paid for him, in gold.”

(ADwD,Ch.47 Tyrion X)

Now remember, the price Yezzan paid for Tyrion was 5000 silvers. (Assuming Penny and the animals were, like their wooden plate and their worldly goods, just inclusions that came with Tyrion - which was clearly the case as far as Brown Ben cared. I suppose the stake for Brown Ben's first game of cyvasse might have been 2500 silvers, if we assume Penny was half the price, or even as little as 2000, allowing something for the performing animals.) Five games of cyvasse, with Tyrion winning all but the second, and Brown Ben doubling the stakes each time, means Tyrion won his master 145,000 silvers, 29 times the price Yezzen paid (or, minimally, 8000 silvers, four times his price, if we value Tyrion at two thousand silvers, and assume that all matches but the second were played for stake of only 2000 silvers.)

Yezzen had fallen asleep when Tyrion had only won 11 times his purchase price (or, minimally, won back all he lost), so we don't know how he feels about Tyrion's wins. We know Tyrion ends his night

Quote

on his knees, his legs aching and his bloody back screaming with pain, trying to scrub out the stain that the noble Yezzan’s spilled wine had left upon the noble Yezzan’s carpet

(ADwD,Ch.47 Tyrion X)

and we get a hint of what commander Yurkahz, his guest of honour, might have been whispering to Yezzen

Quote

that made their master chortle and lick his lips … though there was a hint of anger in those slitted yellow eyes, it seemed to Tyrion.

(ADwD,Ch.47 Tyrion X)

when Nurse informs him:

Quote

Though the noble Yezzan is loath to lose his little treasures, as you have seen, Yurkhaz zo Yunzak persuaded him that it would be selfish to keep such droll antics to himself. Rejoice! To celebrate the signing of the peace, you shall have the honor of jousting in the Great Pit of Daznak.

(ADwD,Ch.47 Tyrion X)

Yes that is right, Yezzan, in his fairness, agreed to send his dwarfs to the

Quote

Lions. They were going to set lions on us.

(ADwD, Ch.57 Tyrion XI)

And would have done, if that embracer of Fire and Blood, Daenarys, had not expressly forbade it, to the apparently universal displeasure of the Benevolent Masters who watched.(ADwD, Ch.52 Daenerys IX)

We don't get to know what Yezzen said or did or felt when they returned, or when he saw Jorah perform as the bear:

Quote

His face was so bruised and swollen that he hardly looked human...naked except for a breechclout

(ADwD,Ch.57 Tyrion XI)

We do know that he continues to entrust the care and management of his slaves to Nurse, so we have reason to infer he sees nothing to concern him.

Tyrion comes to the conclusion that

Quote

The lord of suet was not so bad as masters went.

(ADwD,Ch.57 Tyrion XI)

when Yezzen is on his deathbed, and he is considering possible future scenarios for himself.

Tyrion specifies what he means by 'not so bad', too. In stark contrast to Arya's assessment of her masters at Harrenhal, he is looking at the big picture:

Quote

Yezzan stood foremost amongst those Yunkish lords who favored honoring the peace with Meereen. Most of the others were only biding their time, waiting for the armies of Volantis to arrive. A few wanted to assault the city immediately, lest the Volantenes rob them of their glory and the best part of the plunder. Yezzan would have no part of that. Nor would he consent to returning Meereen’s hostages by way of trebuchet, as the sellsword Bloodbeard had proposed.

(ADwD,Ch.57 Tyrion XI)

Tyrion's notion of a good master has little to do with fairness, or the way he treats his underlings - it is all about Yezzen's strategic choices as a commander, how long he is likely to retain his command, his influence and how much Tyrion can trade on it. Note: the reasons that Tyrion considers Yezzen 'not so bad' are the same ones that motivated Yezzen to sacrifice his new dwarfs in the pit of Daznak, to celebrate peace with Meereen.

Also not sure where you get the idea that Robert Baratheon did not try to kill Viserys and Daenarys. While Jon Arryn lived, Robert had accepted the counsel of his Hand. As soon as Jon Arryn died, he regretted it. When he gets Eddard as his Hand, his first order of business, when they are hunting on the Barrowdowns, half-way to Kings Landing, is to show him how Jorah had tracked the last Targaryens down for him, and he wants them dead. He was really keen on the idea, infuriated by his foolishness in listening to Jon Arryn, frustrated by Illyrio's unsullied household guard, willing to give Jorah a royal pardon in spite of Eddard, to return his lands and title if he did the deed. (AGoT, Ch.12 Eddard II)

Robert remained so keen to kill the Targaryens, he preferred to let Eddard resign the Handship than tolerate his dissent on the matter.(AGoT, Ch.33 Eddard VIII) The change of heart about killing pregnant Daenarys came on his deathbed, after the order that they eat the boar, that Robert believed had gored him to punish him for ordering her death. He hoped he had not rescinded too late, but he didn't bother committing the decision to paper. He said nothing about Viserys - Mrs Drogo and the Stallion that Mounts the World got a deathbed reprieve, if they weren't dead already, but the last Targaryen king most certainly did not.(AGoT, Ch.47 Eddard XIII)

ETA: I interpreted Yezzen's statement to pay the price of his dwarf 'in gold' to mean he would pay the equivalent value of however many silvers, in gold. If he meant he would pay the same number of coins, but in gold, rather than silver, and we assume (although we have no good reason to do so, and some solid hints that we should not) that a gold coin in Slavers Bay is worth 7 or 210 times a silver, the way a gold dragon is seven silver moons or two hundred and ten silver stags, and that, by agreeing to those terms, Brown Ben had also agreed to pay in gold, then Tyrion might have won his master up to 6090 times his purchase price. And Brown Ben would have owed Yezzen up to 145,000 gold pieces, when Tyrion walked into his tent.