Choose to forgive one

[the trees have eyes]

What a choice!  Could you not throw in Theon or Jaime?

I feel we have to discount the insanity defence as you could make an argument that at least four of these five is to some extent insane.  Plus I don't really buy it as an excuse for any of them: they are all capable of behaving with some level of social skill and gaining acceptance - but choose to act the way they do for their own gain.

Gregor and Ramsey are plain monstrous.  It is implied that Gregor murders family relations, wives and servants on a regular basis, likely when they displease him or he is feeling frustration at some disappointment.  Remember the innkeepers' daughter he and his men raped after he lost to Loras Tyrell in the Hand's Tourney?  Yeah, that was because he was angry about losing to Loras and he took out his anger on those weaker than him, not because he's unwell  His men knew what to expect and were quick to seize the opportunity for a bit of rape, not to mention the boy who was murdered, and they love to recount the tale and laugh about it.  We know all about how Ramsey's hounds get their names and a man who enjoys that kind of sport is unforgivable.

So Roose and Walder.  A lot of peole are choosing these two because they made "smart" decisions or did what they did to ensure the survival of their Houses.  First, its worth pointing out that Roose knows full well what Ramsey does to young women for sport yet does nothing to restrain him and people still claim Roose is a good lord to his people: are you frickin' kidding me?  Second: let's remember that Roose actively worked to make the Starks lose: he sent Glover and Tallhart to Duskendale, losing 1/3 of Robb's foot in the process long before the Red Wedding.  This isn't about Roose ensuring his House's survival, its about Roose sniffing an opportunity to change sides and to increase his own power as a result of it.  As well as Duskendale he arranges for a lot of Robb's forces to be trapped the wrong side of the Trident and ambushed by Gregor Clegane.  It's not about his survival, it's about ensuring he is positioned favourably and has more strength than any other northern house.  It's pure ambition and ruthlessness and although some people seem to admire this it seems inconceivable that the North will ever forget and forgive Roose Bolton.  If his house is finished in story as a result of his actions then why would we forgive him when the Westerosi won't? 

Ditto Walder Frey.  All he had to do was let Robb retreat up the causeway and then turn his cloak!  Robb is stuck in the North, Walder sends a peace banner to KL, he even has his grandchild as heir to Riverrun but he took that extra step of the mass murder of thousands of his allies and the slaughter of his wedding guests out of pride and bile.  Like Roose his actions have earned him universal loathing and doomed his house as they now have pariah status in Westeros despite their apparent gains from his actions.  Again: Westeros will not forgive and forget so nor should we.

Which leaves Cersei.  A pretty unpalatable decision given her character and her actions but of all the five she is the one I would choose.  She has some truly awful things on her hands: she did push Melara down the well, she does hand over people to Qyburn for torture and grotesque experiments and Joffrey's nature seems all too much down to how she raised him.  A lot of her decisions however are made out of the need to protect herself and her children - from Robert, from Ned, from Stannis & Renly - and though she is the author of her own misfortune by committing the twincest and cuckolding Robert I can at least find acting to protect her children understandable, even if her actions are often heinous, selfish and end up being self-defeating.

Short version: they all deserve the axe but, hypothetically speaking, if I have to choose one of these miserable five to "forgive" it's Cersei.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

22 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

Robb retreat up the causeway and then turn his cloak! 

How this would be a revenge big enough for what Robb had done? That's nothing, that is no revenge at all. It's like saying "It's ok now go home." when he would had still being in danger from Tywin's armies.

[cyberdirectorfreedom]

15 hours ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

 

That was when Winterfell still existed and the Karstarks and Boltons supported him. Robb was in less of a  position to threaten anyone.

Roose would not be the only Northern Lord who saw it as a pointless cause now, especially considering that a) it was now pretty much winter, the North might not even have enough supplies and funds for another war and b ) the damage that had been inflicted on the North while Roose was away and c) the ravens from the Watch demanding help.

Even if Roose was loyal, there is a good chance that he and many other Lords would refuse to go South again. It had not been a good experience and was only going to get worse.

Mmm, I really don't know. Even now, with the Starks mostly dead (or believed to be) and no longer in power, there's still a surprisingly large amount of loyalty to them. I don't think so many would defy Robb. It baffles me as to why, but Northmen seem to be really, really loyal, to the point of stupidity, the Boltons aside, of course.

It's entirely possible that other Northern lords would follow suit, if Roose decided he'd not go south again. In an already frightful situation, losing one of his strongest allies would obviously be crushing for morale.

But, what are the chances Northern lords would stay in the North, defying Stark orders? Relatively high, I suppose. But what are the chances that Robb would win his war, if only the Boltons stayed behind? Sure, they're low, but if Robb Stark is dead, it's not a worry at all. He simply made a pragmatic choice; the fact that it gained him more power is simply a bonus.

[SeanF]

On ‎8‎/‎7‎/‎2016 at 5:20 PM, WilliamWesterosiWallace said:

1. Roose did it because he wanted power.

2. Rape is unforgivable, fuck you Ramsay.

3. Walder did it for the sake of his House and his honor.

4. Read #2. Fuck you Gregor.

5. No. Just no. You don't get to hate a baby and come out clean. 

 

So yeah, if I absolutely had to forgive one of them, it'd probably be Walder Frey. Huh. 

Cersei, because I enjoy her chapters.

[the trees have eyes]

30 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

How this would be a revenge big enough for what Robb had done? That's nothing, that is no revenge at all. It's like saying "It's ok now go home." when he would had still being in danger from Tywin's armies.

Instead of marrying into a losing cause (Robb & Arya are pledged to marry Freys) Frey gets to marry his daughter to Edmure Tully ensuring he gets a grandson to inherit Riverrun. That's all guaranteed before he turns his cloak and gets to be LP of the Riverlands himself.  Does it satisfy his desire for revenge?  I would argue, yes, in the long run, as the Starks are ground down by the Iron throne.  Although it might not be as satisfying as observing the butchery of the northern & riverlands nobility Frey comes out of the situation as a pragmatic winner without the infamy and loathing of Westeros, not to mention the destruction of his House, which is what he gets from his "revenge".

[Jon's Queen Consort]

1 minute ago, the trees have eyes said:

Frey gets to marry his daughter to Edmure Tully ensuring he gets a grandson to inherit Riverrun.

As Cat told he wanted his grandson to be a King, the Lord of Riverrun was nothing comparing to that.

3 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

would argue, yes, in the long run, as the Starks are ground down by the Iron throne.  Although it might not be as satisfying as observing the butchery of the northern & riverlands nobility Frey comes out of the situation as a pragmatic winner without the infamy and loathing of Westeros, not to mention the destruction of his House, which is what he gets from his "revenge".

The Westerosi already looked down on them and Walder doesn't seem like a man who would care about it. By allowing Robb to retreat he still proves that he is with Robb's side. By killing Robb make him safe from Tywin's wrath, prove his loyalty, takes personal revenge and destroy the man who betrayed and insulted him. Basically he needed a way to prove his faith and killing Robb was the only way to do it.

[Runaway Penguin]

There is difference between "being looked down at" and "being exterminated". I guess Lord Hoster will see the difference pretty soon. Heck, even his closest allies take him and his for trash (Lannisters) and they weakened rapidly - one is tied to King's Landing and crazy, with very short life expectancy, the other is utterly disgusted witht hem and seems to have hold of their main hostage (Edmure).

Without their backing... Who wants to guess that in books, Knights of Vale will ride against the Freys? After all how better can Littlefinger convince Sansa than to give her heads of Catelyn's murderers?

Lord Hoster and Lord Bolton conspired for a premediated mass murder - both for clear material gain, for more power and for hurt feelings. Both were in full possession of their faculties. Neither deserves clemency. Both are equal to people murdering their boss because he gave bigger bonus to someone else.

 

Re. fear of Tywin: He boasted that Twins are impregnable. But in any case, he could have also openly broken alliance with Robb and blocked his retreat - heck, even take up arms against him. Murdering him and his host while they were his guests is definitely a no-go.

 

Again, from the list it really seems that the only one to be pardoned - on grounds of insanity - is Clegane (provided he is safely locked up). His behavior seems to be result of an underlying medical condition and not just being sociopathic sadistic arsehole.

[cyberdirectorfreedom]

2 hours ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

The Westerosi already looked down on them and Walder doesn't seem like a man who would care about it. By allowing Robb to retreat he still proves that he is with Robb's side. By killing Robb make him safe from Tywin's wrath, prove his loyalty, takes personal revenge and destroy the man who betrayed and insulted him. Basically he needed a way to prove his faith and killing Robb was the only way to do it.

Yup, I agree with this. For both Roose and Walder, turning on the Starks was not as simple as it looks; there are many ways they could have showed the Starks that they weren't on their side. But it wouldn't be enough to appease the Lannisters and the Crown. There has to be a show of faith, otherwise they now have two enemies; the Starks for abandoning them, and also the Crown for siding with the Starks in the first place.

No matter whether or not you agree with what they did, the Red Wedding showed that the Boltons and the Freys had abandoned the Starks, beyond any doubt. It was the best way to ensure their survival against a more powerful foe. As I've said before, pragmatism seems to be a constant with both Walder and Roose (though I do believe that Walder had a more personal reason for his betrayal).

[cyberdirectorfreedom]

On 8/9/2016 at 8:49 PM, Dofs said:

GRRM has claimed that Cersei has a sociopathic worldview so I believe his general opinion of Cersei is a pretty negative one. About Cersei, Jaime and Arya, it's not a matter of reading the same text and coming to different conclusions, in this case you were simply wrong. You've claimed that Jaime had decided that Cersei meant killing or maiming Arya after his disillusionment with Cersei but this disillusionment happened in the middle of FfC, and started to happen only in SoS, while Jaime actually went to search for Arya back in GoT with the very intention of killing or maiming her:

"It was only by chance that Stark's own men found the girl before me. If I had come on her first . . ." 

Jaime had thought that this is what Cersei wanted way back in GoT, while he was still idolising her, not after his disillusionment. His speech in FfC to Ilyn Payne was not about his sudden revelation that Cersei didn't want him by "I want" but getting Arya killed, Jaime was venting his disgust at himself that he was ready to do this despicable crime for Cersei. 

Now, of course you can think that when Jaime and Cersei were having sex and Cersei was screaming "I want", Jaime first thought that it was him she meant but then, a few minutes later he went "nah, she probably meant killing or maiming Arya" and then went to do it but I am sorry, you will be lying to yourself.

Well, when you're right, you're right. I've looked into it, and it seems that I had actually quite forgotten some facts; I had forgotten a rather crucial part of Jaime's musings, in that conversation with Ser Ilyn:

My sister wanted the girl to lose a hand. The old penalty, for striking one of the blood royal. Robert told her she was cruel and mad. They fought for half the night . . . well, Cersei fought, and Robert drank. 

That's Jaime's memory of the night, without his personal thoughts changing anything; Cersei did want Arya maimed. It's been a while since I'd read AFfC, so I was simply mistaking myself. Apologies.

Still, I can understand why Cersei wanted Arya maimed. It was apparently a normal thing; it was, once upon a time, considered a standard punishment for striking royalty. It's still very, very nasty, and a clear stain upon Cersei's name; I don't think she'd care so harshly if it were not her children involved, but it's still something I won't forgive her for.

I'm in the wrong here; I do certainly think that the "I want!" was directed at Jaime; but it simply has nothing to do with the situation, though I had thought it did. My mistake.

[kimim]

Cersei: She's sociopathic and cruel and stupid to boot, and it's all gratuitous. And yeah, misogyny, etc., but no. I can find zero excuses for her. Lock her up.

Ramsay: See Cersei. Sociopathic, sadistic, zero positive qualities. Lock him up.

Gregor: See Cersei and Ramsay. There is no limit to how low he will go. Lock him up. 

Roose: I can see how frustrating it would be to follow a baby Stark and watch him make mistakes, and how tempting it would be to finally defeat the Starks. Still, none of it excuses RW. Roose could have left with his men and fought Robb in the North; Robb had just lost the war and Winterfell, and was in a weak position. No one has successfully conquered the North, so there was no way that Tywin could have forced Roose's hand. Roose betrayed people who trusted him, killed thousands of Northern soldiers because he wanted power. It's cowardly, and it's stupid, as it leaves him isolated. That Tywin promised him a "fake" Arya makes the whole thing so ridiculous that if it happened on the show, people would be howling for D&D's heads. A fake Stark is as silly as it gets, and both Tywin and Roose are smart enough to know that. Lock him up.

Walder: Responsible for RW. However, it's possible that Tywin gave him no choice. By siding with Robb, Walder turned against Tywin. In response, Tywin may have said prepare the RW or I'm going Castamere on the Freys. At that point, Walder would use Robb's marriage as an excuse to save face, when his actual motivation was fear and a desire to preserve his family. IF Tywin threatened him, he's not as guilty as Roose. I think Walder's main mistake is siding with Robb in the first place. Why would a man known for his caution side with an untried teen general against Tywin? It's insane. Lock him up, too, but I can find excuses for him.

 

[Dofs]

9 hours ago, khal drogon said:

His past acts were how Northern lords once acted. In a way Roose was  following the Northern tradition. And if Roose was a Ramsay level psychopath in the past how their own liege don't know anything about it. 

Ramsay was Ramsay level psychopath and his liege didn't know anything about it. Roose was also constantly practising a First Night and his liege didn't know about it. Roose and Ramsay successfully managed to keep their activities secret. To be fair to Roose though, he is not a Ramsay-level psycho, he does not enjoy to see other people suffer and hence does not really torment anyone for satisfaction. He just rapes to satisfy his urges or kills to avoid inconveniences like paying someone.

Just because Northern lords acted like that ages ago does not excuse Roose since now such a practise is considered immoral. 

[thelittledragonthatcould]

7 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

Instead of marrying into a losing cause (Robb & Arya are pledged to marry Freys) Frey gets to marry his daughter to Edmure Tully ensuring he gets a grandson to inherit Riverrun.

Robb is abandoning the Riverlands. Edmure is not likely to keep his castle, Walder too for that matter.

Walder's motivation is not just about revenge, ambition but there is also some self preservation there. When Robb caused chaos in the Westerlands the biggest contingent of vassal men were from the Freys, Tywin would be looking for retribution against Walder more than any other Riverlord.

[the trees have eyes]

10 hours ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

As Cat told he wanted his grandson to be a King, the Lord of Riverrun was nothing comparing to that.

The Westerosi already looked down on them and Walder doesn't seem like a man who would care about it. By allowing Robb to retreat he still proves that he is with Robb's side. By killing Robb make him safe from Tywin's wrath, prove his loyalty, takes personal revenge and destroy the man who betrayed and insulted him. Basically he needed a way to prove his faith and killing Robb was the only way to do it.

Lord Paramount of the Riverlands is effectively = Lord Paramount of the North which is all the Starks were when Frey agreed to marry into them.  Robb didn't become KitN until much later.

The point is that the short term success of what he did does not conceal the fact that the mid- to long-term outlook for House Frey is disastrous.  Walder not only betrayed most / all of the nobility of the North and Riverlands earning their unrelenting enmity and broke a strict and quais-religious social taboo that has earned him the loathing of every noble house in Westeros he did it in a way that made his whole family complicit and tarnished by the event.  Almost all of the Freys were in some way involved in the plotting and execution of the Red Wedding meaning that its not just some sour old man who is tainted its his whole house and they won't be able to come back from what they've done.

I understand why he and Roose did what they did but they are both finished and I don't see how their houses survive any more than the Reynes, Castameres or Florents.  Tywin used them and no Lannister will lift a hand when the Northern / River Lords and BWB demolish them.  They were both seduced by their desire for more power and prestige but they made bad chocies and committed terrible actions.  The North remembers and they are both dead men walking.

[the trees have eyes]

4 hours ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

Robb is abandoning the Riverlands. Edmure is not likely to keep his castle, Walder too for that matter.

Walder's motivation is not just about revenge, ambition but there is also some self preservation there. When Robb caused chaos in the Westerlands the biggest contingent of vassal men were from the Freys, Tywin would be looking for retribution against Walder more than any other Riverlord.

Yes, my point was that Walder would marry Roslin to Edmure, watch Robb march off and then betray the both of them.  If Walder's service was not enough to get him Riverrun - which it woild not be if he had allowed Robb to escape and then turned cloak - he would still have a powerful argument that Roslin's child by Edmure would inherit Riverrun.  I actually think that helping restore peace to the Riverlands by being the Lannister's stooges would be enough to win him a lot of favour and he has the strategic bottleneck of the Twins to keep Robb penned in the North while Tywin / the Crown cannot take him for granted or treat him harshly while Stannis, Balon / Euron and Robb are all still in rebellion.

So I think Walder has more bargaining power than to commit such a horrendous crime, which as Tywin so dryly remarks to Tyrion leaves no stain on his reputation.  Walder wanted revenge and security for his house: he got the first but not the second and he became Tywin's instrument as surely as Gregor, a beast to be let loose, and his house is beginning to reap what he sowed for them: death and destruction, whether as Frey pies or hanged by the BWB.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

21 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

Lord Paramount of the Riverlands is effectively = Lord Paramount of the North which is all the Starks were when Frey agreed to marry into them.  Robb didn't become KitN until much later.

He was promissed Robb the man who would had been dead since book 1 if it wasn't for Walder and the man who he basically made King.

21 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

The point is that the short term success of what he did does not conceal the fact that the mid- to long-term outlook for House Frey is disastrous

So far the Freys are on the winning side, the Starks are destroyed. So I am not sure what you mean by long term.

21 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

  Walder not only betrayed most / all of the nobility of the North and Riverlands earning their unrelenting enmity and broke a strict and quais-religious social taboo that has earned him the loathing of every noble house in Westeros he did it in a way that made his whole family complicit and tarnished by the event. 

And he also had the support of the most dangerous, powerful and cruel man in Westeros.

21 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

Almost all of the Freys were in some way involved in the plotting and execution of the Red Wedding meaning that its not just some sour old man who is tainted its his whole house and they won't be able to come back from what they've done.

You have absolutely no way of knowing that.

 

[thelittledragonthatcould]

20 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

Yes, my point was that Walder would marry Roslin to Edmure, watch Robb march off and then betray the both of them.

Except Robb was expecting the Freys to support him in retaking the North, that is the whole reason why there is another wedding as he needs the Freys.

"From the south," said Robb. "But if we can attack from the north and west simultaneously, and take the ironmen in the rear while they are beating off what they think is my main thrust up the causeway, then we have a chance. Once I link up with Lord Bolton and the Freys, I will have more than twelve thousand men. I mean to divide them into three battles and start up the causeway a half-day apart."

 

20 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

If Walder's service was not enough to get him Riverrun - which it woild not be if he had allowed Robb to escape and then turned cloak - he would still have a powerful argument that Roslin's child by Edmure would inherit Riverrun.

Service to who? Service for what?

20 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

I actually think that helping restore peace to the Riverlands by being the Lannister's stooges would be enough to win him a lot of favour and he has the strategic bottleneck of the Twins to keep Robb penned in the North while Tywin / the Crown cannot take him for granted or treat him harshly while Stannis, Balon / Euron and Robb are all still in rebellion.

Sure they can. The Crown had 80k men. Walder is only worth making a deal with if he and Roose can kill Robb and has the North cease to carry on fighting.

 

 

[the trees have eyes]

42 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

He was promissed Robb the man who would had been dead since book 1 if it wasn't for Walder and the man who he basically made King.

So far the Freys are on the winning side, the Starks are destroyed. So I am not sure what you mean by long term.

And he also had the support of the most dangerous, powerful and cruel man in Westeros.

You have absolutely no way of knowing that.

 

Do you consider the Freys to be in a good position right now?  Walder fucked up big time and his heirs are being put to the sword in the North and the Riverlands.  Are you on the winning side when the man you made the pact to serve and his son are both dead and its open season on your House whenever they leave your castle?

I don't really know why you feel the need to query what long term is or argue that Walder got it right.  Perhaps you feel GRRM's intention is that the Freys are rewarded for the Red Wedding in the long term rather than destroyed because of it but it really, really doesn't look like it.  All those hanged men and missing relatives are a pretty big clue.

As to the bolded: no, it's an opinion and a rather obvious deduction but as you seem to feel the opposite we'll agree to disagree.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

3 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

Do you consider the Freys to be in a good position right now?  Walder fucked up big time and his heirs are being put to the sword in the North and the Riverlands.  Are you on the winning side when the man you made the pact to serve and his son are both dead and its open season on your House whenever they leave your castle?

He has at least 100 more heirs. BTW his heir died for Robb, another thing that the Freys had to pay and Robb betrayed them.

4 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

I don't really know why you feel the need to query what long term is or argue that Walder got it right.  Perhaps you feel GRRM's intention is that the Freys are rewarded for the Red Wedding in the long term rather than destroyed because of it but it really, really doesn't look like it.  All those hanged men and missing relatives are a pretty big clue.

I don't feel that I believe that. If there was any other family and not the Starks the Freys would had won. There are hundrends of people with Frey blood who can be heirs one or even ten of them isn't a big deal.

5 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

As to the bolded: no, it's an opinion and a rather obvious deduction but as you seem to feel the opposite we'll agree to disagree.

You seemed very sure about the fact and not an opinion that all the Freys were involved in Red Wedding which is something that isn't true. Have you got a proof that what you say is true? No.

[the trees have eyes]

38 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

Except Robb was expecting the Freys to support him in retaking the North, that is the whole reason why there is another wedding as he needs the Freys.

"From the south," said Robb. "But if we can attack from the north and west simultaneously, and take the ironmen in the rear while they are beating off what they think is my main thrust up the causeway, then we have a chance. Once I link up with Lord Bolton and the Freys, I will have more than twelve thousand men. I mean to divide them into three battles and start up the causeway a half-day apart."

 

Service to who? Service for what?

Sure they can. The Crown had 80k men. Walder is only worth making a deal with if he and Roose can kill Robb and has the North cease to carry on fighting.

 

 

1. When Catelyn urged Robb to return to Winterfell after it's sack Robb pointed out that the Riverlands would be left to fend for themselves.  And so they would be.  As Catelyn said the River Lords would have to defend their own lands and despite your reference Frey is a Tully Bannerman and River Lord.  His place is in the Riverlands not marching to WF with the Northmen.  If Robb really wanted to mend relations with Walder he could hardly force the man to send his troops north while no other Riverlanders were required to stir a foot and were allowed to protect their own lands.

2. His service to the Crown would be to turn his cloak once Robb was in the North, ensure The Twins were closed and the Green Fork impassable to any forces coming from the North, and assist the Crown in pacifying the Riverlands.  You only need look at the Bracken - Blackwood incident in ADWD to see the Crown was willing to accept one House back into the King's peace in return for its military service.  Now imagine Stannis, Euron and Robb are all still in rebellion and the Dornish unreliable and Walder Frey has much more of a bargaining position that Jonos Bracken, particularly given his superior military forces, wealth and the strategic position of his castle.  It's a strong hand.

 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

4 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

2. His service to the Crown would be to turn his cloak once Robb was in the North, ensure The Twins were closed and the Green Fork impassable to any forces coming from the North, and assist the Crown in pacifying the Riverlands.  You only need look at the Bracken - Blackwood incident in ADWD to see the Crown was willing to accept one House back into the King's peace in return for its military service.  Now imagine Stannis, Euron and Robb are all still in rebellion and the Dornish unreliable and Walder Frey has much more of a bargaining position that Jonos Bracken, particularly given his superior military forces, wealth and the strategic position of his castle.  It's a strong hand.

And how exactly he would had proved his loyalty to the crown if he hadn't done anything against the Starks? Not helping them after allowing them to be safe at home is not a way to prove that he is with the Crown's side.