Choose to forgive one

[Lord Fauntleroy]

Just now, The Wolves said:

Roose slaughtered his own country men for no reason. And no he didn't do it because he was looking out for him and his house Roose did it cause he's cruel and evil. 

Untrue on both counts. He had a very good reason that I cannot blame him for.

Roose was making a power play, as he knew Rob's cause was lost after he lost the Freys. He allowed the Glover and Stark northmen to die in order to avoid losing his own Dreadfort men (his actual countrymen) whom he is still keeping safe inside Winterfell while letting Manderly and Frey forces die in the snow. He has been quite good to his own people considering. 

[Lord Lannister]

Walder Frey. If not for the Westerosi taboo of guest right, what he did really wasn't that bad when compared to everyone else, even some of the protagonists. He was wronged and got revenge.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

55 minutes ago, Lord Fauntleroy said:

I'm going against the grain here and saying Roose. His is the only one not done with malice or cruelty.

oh come on, he taunted him as he stabbed him in his back

A man in dark armor and a pale pink cloak spotted with blood stepped up to Robb. "Jaime Lannister sends his regards." He thrust his longsword through her son's heart, and twisted.

Maybe you could have made that argument before he said that, but not after.

55 minutes ago, Lord Fauntleroy said:

 

Frey violated guest right, which you need to remember is a heavy sin in their world. 

As is Kingslaying.

[The Wolves]

43 minutes ago, Lord Fauntleroy said:

Untrue on both counts. He had a very good reason that I cannot blame him for.

Roose was making a power play, as he knew Rob's cause was lost after he lost the Freys. He allowed the Glover and Stark northmen to die in order to avoid losing his own Dreadfort men (his actual countrymen) whom he is still keeping safe inside Winterfell while letting Manderly and Frey forces die in the snow. He has been quite good to his own people considering. 

What power play was Roose making by betraying his King and fellow countrymen? 

What would he have gotten that would have justified killing and betraying Robb and the rest of the Northmen? 

He wouldn't have gotten Winterfell/North because Tywin planned on giving that to Tyrion. Roose got a Frey bride, that's all he would have gotten, nothing more. He didn't need a pardon cause once he got back north he would have been fine. 

Roose and his men are surrounded by people inside and outside the castle plotting their deaths, Roose put his men in this position so no he has not been good to them. 

[Lord Fauntleroy]

 

15 minutes ago, The Wolves said:

What power play was Roose making by betraying his King and fellow countrymen? 

What would he have gotten that would have justified killing and betraying Robb and the rest of the Northmen? 

He made the power play of being on the winning side. He got to not die. Without the Freys and Karstarks the cause was lost. Switching sides to the winner means at the very least he won't get killed nor lose his seat to some upjumped southron knight. 

16 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

oh come on, he taunted him as he stabbed him in his back

A man in dark armor and a pale pink cloak spotted with blood stepped up to Robb. "Jaime Lannister sends his regards." He thrust his longsword through her son's heart, and twisted.

Maybe you could have made that argument before he said that, but not after.

As is Kingslaying.

That was Roose doing what Jaime told him. He's kind of weirdly literal about everything he does or is told. Also in that scene he is killing Robb much quicker than Frey was doing what with the multiple bolts to the torso. A heart puncture and twist is more or less instant loss of blood pressure and thus a faster death. 

15 minutes ago, The Wolves said:

Roose and his men are surrounded by people inside and outside the castle plotting their deaths, Roose put his men in this position so no he has not been good to them. 

There is no way Roose could have known that would happen.

 

Honestly I don't see how anyone can see Roose's actions as anything less than practical. Sure it sucks for Robb and it was all generally dishonorable but that's kinda who Roose is. 

[AugustusTheGreat]

Cersei, she went apeshit. however, she did everything for her family in a way, and I think that if Tywin was there, he would praise what she did, even though it did result in Tommen killing himself. 

[Lilypad]

6 hours ago, Horse of Kent said:

Cersei on grounds of insanity.

This argument could be used for several of them.

I pick Cersei too. The incest doesn't really hurt anyone. She didn't really kill Robert. Nobody could save him from himself. She couldn't control her son, that is her biggest problem. That and her incredibly inflated opinion of herself and skills. 

[The Wolves]

17 minutes ago, Lord Fauntleroy said:

 

He made the power play of being on the winning side. He got to not die. Without the Freys and Karstarks the cause was lost. Switching sides to the winner means at the very least he won't get killed nor lose his seat to some upjumped southron knight. 

There is no way Roose could have known that would happen.

How was Roose going to die or loose his seat to a Southron lord? 

Robb and his men including Roose were going home. And after that winter would have set in. What Southron lord would want to sit on Roose's blood infested, winter hell of a castle? 

Roose was NOT in any danger of death or loosing the Dredfort if he went North with Robb, so don't use that BS excuse that he was. 

And yes Roose should have known that he would be surrounded by enemies, the idiot was watching his back in ADWD way before Stannis showed up and cut him off. He should have known that the Northernmen would put two and two together with him having a Frey bride, coming back with all his men, plus a Frey army that they would figure out that he was in on the RW. 

Dont praise Roose's supposed pragmatism yet ignore his stupidity. Roose had less to lose staying with Robb. 

[dariopatke]

Roose ofc.

Killed Robb- saved thousands of lives and more and probably his own, also secured house by gettig an heir.

And we have no indication hat he is tyrant, quite oposite actually, all he wishes is peace and silence, I could work with that.

Walder is close second.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

2 hours ago, Lord Fauntleroy said:

 

Honestly I don't see how anyone can see Roose's actions as anything less than practical. Sure it sucks for Robb and it was all generally dishonorable but that's kinda who Roose is. 

I don't see anything wrong with it, but it was ambition not pragmatism. He wanted to be Warden and he got his wish.

Robb was returning home anyway, Roose could have just as easily went home and then said he is "not returning South to carry on this pointless war. The Karstarks, Dustins, Ryswells (and possibly others) agree with me. We won't fight you but we will also not support this war any more." Robb was no longer in a position to threaten any of his Lords like was able to do at Winterfell.

Out of the characters mentioned I would choose both Walders and Cersei's reasons over that of Roose.

Walder simply had more reason to be pissed with Robb than Roose did, Roose was returning without any Boltons lost, few casualties to his men, no promises broken and pretty rich thanks to his marriage to Walda. He simply saw an opportunity for more and took it, like many feudal lords would have done.

[Lord Fauntleroy]

13 minutes ago, dariopatke said:

Roose ofc.

Killed Robb- saved thousands of lives and more and probably his own, also secured house by gettig an heir.

And we have no indication hat he is tyrant, quite oposite actually, all he wishes is peace and silence, I could work with that.

Walder is close second.

My man!

[Curled Finger]

Whoa, whoa here.    Did I just read every single one of those previous posts in defense of Walder Frey?  Cersei?  Roose Frickin' Bolton?  Let's not forget the crimes these characters committed.   Walder had a wedding between his house and his Lord.  He did not get what he wanted but he got a damned sight better than anything he previously enjoyed.   He opened fire on rooms and camps of guests while they feasted.  He allowed his own grandson (Jingle Bells was a grand son, wasn't he?) to be killed instead of stop for a quick second to sort the horror of his party out.   Perhaps Robb and possibly Cat deserved to die, but not a single one of the others deserved this way on any level.  And Roose Bolton was part of this treason and treachery.   Roose and Walder were beyond opportunists in the Red Wedding.  Read what other characters say about the Red Wedding.   It was an abomination.   It was a war crime of the highest order.    

Cersei is insane and with that defense that's already been made in previous posts I call horse hockey.   You don't get to be insane when you're just mean and cruel to people who aren't your family.   She's the frickin Queen Mother of a starving Kings Landing and outright chooses to throw leftovers from Joffrey's wedding feast to the dogs rather than feed smallfolk?   The Queen Regent who called her brat, the KING, back from battle because she was afrraid he would get hurt when every able bodied man was out defending the Red Keep?   No, this is not insanity.   This is selfishness, spite and greed.    

To the topic's credit I haven't seen anyone stand up for Ramsay.  (By the way, Roose is a rapist, too.)  I get the arguments for forgiving the 3 above, but the truth is a court in the land I'm from is only likely to find Ser Gregor Clegane not guilty or cop a plea for him.   I recently ran across the fact that Rhaegar Targaryan is the one who knighted Gregor.  Hrmmm.  That's interesting and leads me to believe that there was at some point something redeemable in him.   Not the part before or after, but right there at that part maybe.   Truth is, Gregor is only known to have acted of his own will in the burning of his own brother.   Not of the heinous crimes he committed under order of Tywin Lannister.   I'm not making light of this--Gregor is a stunningly bad guy.   Still, I operate under the working theory that Gregor's got a brain tumor (all those headaches he gets) and this may be causing some of the atrocity in his atrocities.   But he isn't doing it of his own volition.   He was under orders to commit every crime (except burning Sandor).  I'm not so sure I can forgive any of it, but this brain tumor idea does make it a little easier to choose Gregor over the others.   Do soldiers who operate as commanded get court marshalled? 

[thelittledragonthatcould]

15 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

snip

The wives that Gregor had raped and killed, the sister and father he likely killed and his smallfolk who live in terror of him?

Ned Stark could not recall ever speaking to the man, though Gregor had ridden with them during Balon Greyjoy's rebellion, one knight among thousands. He watched him with disquiet. Ned seldom put much stock in gossip, but the things said of Ser Gregor were more than ominous. He was soon to be married for the third time, and one heard dark whisperings about the deaths of his first two wives. It was said that his keep was a grim place where servants disappeared unaccountably and even the dogs were afraid to enter the hall. And there had been a sister who had died young under queer circumstances, and the fire that had disfigured his brother, and the hunting accident that had killed their father.

 

19 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

 I recently ran across the fact that Rhaegar Targaryan is the one who knighted Gregor.  Hrmmm.  That's interesting and leads me to believe that there was at some point something redeemable in him.  

Wait, the fact that he brutally (not peacefully) murdered the children of the man who knighted him is something that makes him redeemable?

Rhaehar likely had him as a squire to appease Tywin, someone who was in favor of him becoming King while his father was still alive.

[Lady Topspin]

Everyone on that short list have a history of cruelty and murder.  Cersei killed Melara.  Ramsay killed little girls for fun.  Roose killed the farmer/miller.  Gregor killed Rhaegar's family.  They all have "priors".   Except for Walder Frey.  I forgive Walder Frey. 

[Curled Finger]

@thelittledragonthatcould, we meet again!  The knighting was just an interesting little factoid.   I tried very hard to qualify everything with maybe.  These candidates really suck.   The crux of my comment was strictly legally speaking.   Gregor Clegane acted on Tywin Lannister's orders.   Your Ned quote (and thanks, I'd completely forgotten about the wives) is just Ned's recounting of the tales he heard.   There is no proof Gregor had anything to do with his father or sister's deaths.   Ned's thoughts go under the same category as Oberyn Martell's story about meeting baby Tyrion.   

Take a breath and read it again.   I'm not defending this monster.   The topic challenged me to choose 1 of 5 very awful characters to forgive.  If The Mountain has a brain tumor then I would be more likely to find him not guilty by reason of real insanity (as opposed to Cersei's brand of insanity).   

I came across that little knighting fact when researching Rhaegar.  I hadn't previously actually had an opinion about Rhaegar because we know so little about him.   But there is stuff, you just have to search 6 novels for it.  Rhaegar appeared to be a far more sympathetic character than I expected.   So here I am, with my 1st real glimpses of Rhaegar thinking, yeah, he would have made a much better king because he's thoughtful and smart and pensive and studious and pretty--when I run across this deal with Dream Prince Rhaegar knighting Clegane.   My 1st thought was exactly what you wrote, "so why would this guy kill the Prince Who Knighted Him's wife and son?"  I started a topic to discuss some of this but it died on the vine as everyone thought I was being a Gregor sympathizer.  (Actually, I was wondering if Rhaenys and Aegon weren't already dead, that Aerys killed them before the sack.)  I'm not.  I just wonder if we have the real story about Gregor.   I think Sandor is a reliable witness, but no one else seems to actually know Gregor.   There is a lot of grey area here.   

[Foot_Of_The_King]

10 hours ago, house of dayne said:

i think of all of them, roose has the most redeemable qualities..i could imagine him as an excellent if somewhat brutal ruler whereas the others seem stupid

I can see this. He's a sociopath for sure but he really reminds me of Tywin. I've always thought of Roose as being on the "same level" as him but with far less resources. 

[THE INDIGO]

Roose and Cersei, but my final answer is Cersei. She needs help, like as much as the pov chapters in affc and beyond are entertaining, I pitty her. And I respect Roose so much when it comes to playing the game. He's better at it than Tywin and Cersei tbh

[Dofs]

Definitely Walder. All the others are flat out evil and simply insane while Walder is just a very very big asshole.

[Julia H.]

16 hours ago, Sam2Sexy said:

If you have to forgive one of the following, who would it be and why? Consider all their "sins" in making your choice.

(1). Roose

(2) . Ramsey

(3) . Walder

(4). Gregor

(5). Cersei

Make your choice and tell me their sin(s) in your eyes.

Thanks

Hm, if I absolutely had to choose one... Ramsay and Gregor would be totally out of the question. Regarding the other three, I would forgive whichever of them would be most willing to atone for their sins (Cersei's walk of shame wouldn't count) and to sincerely change their ways in future. They would have to compensate their victims or their victims' surviving family members by paying for material damage and by doing some community work for their benefit and/or for the benefit of the realm (preferably personally although old Walder could make his family members do the actual job) and they would also have to express a formal apology towards their victims.

Some ideas: After apologizing to and compensating the Starks, the Tullys and the families of all the slaughtered guests of the Red Wedding, the Freys could set up an inn near the Crossing, where they would give food, shelter and safety to poor travellers for free. They could also atone by giving a generous bridal gift to all the not so wealthy girls getting married in the Riverlands (it could be a tangible gift or some physical work). Roose Bolton should pay for the rebuilding of Winterfell, should  renounce the practice of flaying and rape and should share his winter food supply with people in need in the North. Then he could take the black and fight the Others (if the NW still exists). Cersei should start by establishing a foundation that gives significant help to bastard children and to the "cripples and broken things" of the realm. She would have to personally participate in the work to the best of her abilities. She should help Gendry, Mya Stone and Edric Storm to start their adult lives. She should apologize to Sansa and Arya and give them generous dowries of Casterly Rock gold. She should expose the horrors Qyburn does and should atone for every single victim she handed over to him. She should also compensate Margaery for slander. And so on.

Now I wonder which of them would be most willing to do all that? 

[cyberdirectorfreedom]

Well, Cersei, obviously. What are her "sins", exactly? Killing Robert? He would rape and beat her, wanting to free yourself from that is hardly a bad thing. She had other, more ambitious reasons for killing him too, but still. The incest with Jaime? That's no sin in my book; they were in love, I say leave them to it. They were together before she was with Robert, and the marriage was forced upon her, so calling it treason is a stretch, if technically true. Plus, two thirds of their children are great. I've always had the idea that Joffrey had Roberts bastards killed; I don't think it's confirmed who ordered it, though, but we don't know it's Cersei; even then, I can see the necessity for such action.

I've seen people referring to her hatred for Tyrion in this thread as unforgivable, but I can certainly understand it. Tyrion didn't choose to kill Joanna, yet had he not existed, Cersei's mother would still be alive. How many people could love someone who caused the death of their mother, even if it was out of their control? Add in the Valonqar Prophecy, and wishing to see Tyrion dead makes a lot of sense.

She's done some bad, sure; she's had people tortured in an attempt to get rid of the scheming Tyrells. I'm not saying she's some innocent maiden, but I hardly think her "sins" are as great as some of the others in the list. I'll try to play devils advocate for some of the others, too, though; but with Cersei, I can easily forgive her.

Roose Bolton; I can understand what he did. He was forced into a war he didn't want, fighting for a child bent on vengeance. Roose Bolton strikes me as a pragmatic man, first and foremost. He knows the reputation of Tywin Lannister, and doesn't want to die (or see his men and colleagues die) for such an emotional cause. Robb Stark would've continued fighting until the bitter end; not only the bitter end of House Stark, but of the houses that serve him, too. Roose saw an opportunity to not only live, but to enhance his station. Staying with Stark, or leaving without having the Starks killed, puts the Boltons at incredible risk. If the Starks won their war, it'd only come at great cost to the Houses that serve them. If they won and the Boltons left, they would be the first to feel the ire of the King in the North. Dealing with an enemy before they know they're even your enemy is a very, very good move. An honourable move? No. Intelligent move? Yes. I can forgive this.

Walder Frey; I can understand this, too. Walder Frey sold his support to Robb Stark, and Stark was willing to buy it. And yet, he was paid with false coin. That's enough to push any man to rash action, but Robb Stark also insulted the Freys. He married someone from a lesser House (or a greater House, depending on how you see it. Salt in the wounds, either way), despite pledging to marry a Frey. Stark felt bold enough to think he could get away with not paying what was owed. Walder Frey delivered on his promises, costing him his first born son, among others of his army and family. And Stark didn't care. Robb Stark was only focused on his vengeance. Walder Frey managed to get his. Did he break guest right? Yup, he sure did. Was it a so called "morally correct" thing that he did? Not in any classical sense of morality, no. Yet it was pragmatic, and not uncalled for. He would've had to have been a fool to lose such an opportunity, to make battle instead. He'd lost enough for the Starks, and I can forgive it.

Gregor Clegane; now we're getting to a place where it's not so easy to rationalize. The only way that I can excuse his behaviour is if we can believe that he wasn't in control. It's possible that his grotesque size caused some literally issues in his brain. I've read theories that he has a brain tumour, and brain tumours have been known to cause increased anger and aggression. If it's true, then perhaps some of his actions were out of his control, but there's only speculation. Without proof of this, if we believe that he was in complete control, then he's not someone anyone could forgive, for his brutality and generally monstrous behaviour. No.

Ramsay Bolton; I don't think I have too much to say. There's no speculation of a tumour, no reason to believe he's not in control of his actions, in any way. The only reason I see for his behaviour is that he's trying to emulate his father, but he misinterprets the kind of man Roose Bolton is. He knows the old tales of the Boltons, and wants to fit it; he knows how he was conceived, too. He's lived with the stigma of being a bastard, too; Jon shows how, even in a relatively nice, happy household, it's still something that affects someone deeply, and Ramsay didn't have such a lofty upbringing, with his mother or his father. But he wants to prove to his father that he is truly his son; a true Bolton, beyond doubt. I suppose it's an understandable thing to do; but there's no way to forgive it, really. He commits cruel acts happily, in a futile effort to gain acceptance, when all he'd need to do is curb his behaviour. It's rather tragic, really, but he's not one that I forgive.

So, there you go. Cersei, Roose and Walder are people I can forgive, rather easily, to be honest. Gregor and Ramsay are not, as the reasoning behind their acts are shaky at best.