Sansa is truly one of the best characters and her development is fascinating

[Springwatch]

1 hour ago, ShadowCat Rivers said:

Sorry, but that's just silly, imo.

I mean, neither Robert nor anyone else in the room suffer from short term memory loss or something, for all we know. The truth of the facts has been told by both Arya and Joffrey --there's no contest about them-- and the hard evidence is there for everyone to see, right on Joffrey's body.

This is what Robert says:

Quote

"What in all the seven hells am I supposed to make of this? He says one thing and she says another."

See where that's leading? He's saying there's no reliable evidence. We don't know what happened. There's no proof of a crime.

Saying this helps out the Starks, but he's running roughshod over the statements by Arya and Joff that Arya did in fact attack and injure the crown prince, and so did the direwolf.

Robert is good at ignoring the truth, and this time it's admirable. But his position is weak. As you say, no-one's suffering from short-term memory loss, and the Lannisters will be using all their power and influence for revenge.

Robert is weak and could be forced to face up to the facts - for example by a star witness who turns the childish stories into solid, confirmed, witnessed evidence. He might also have his parental conscience woken if he repeatedly has the threat to Joffrey shoved under his nose.

1 hour ago, ShadowCat Rivers said:

I can't understand how anyone interprets the purpose of this "trial" (from Robert's part, that is - Cersei's intentions are an entirely different matter) as anything else than to derive with the instigator of the events. Sansa's testimony is completely useless for anything else than that. (I know Ned gets a lot of flack for practically everything and that he's preceived by many as only a little better than a moron, but this is not a reading worth discussing as I see it.)

I don't understand what you mean by 'derive with the instigator'. I think Sansa could be most effective here by pleading for mercy. The Starks don't need justice, given that Arya is guilty under law. They need mercy. It all depends on Robert.

1 hour ago, ShadowCat Rivers said:

 

... I just feel that, for many people, minds are already made and nothing but (perhaps) new content is going to change it. So I feel less and less inclined to engage seriously into a discussion about the character...

I'm beginning to feel the same.

[Philokles]

3 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

This is what Robert says:

See where that's leading? He's saying there's no reliable evidence. We don't know what happened. There's no proof of a crime.

Saying this helps out the Starks, but he's running roughshod over the statements by Arya and Joff that Arya did in fact attack and injure the crown prince, and so did the direwolf.

There is loads of evidence for what happened: Joffrey's injuries, Arya being in hiding for several days, both sides making broadly similar statements about what happened. That quote you provided is perfect evidence that the issue at hand was deciding who initiated the fight. Robert is frustrated that the two accounts don't match up on the area that he is going to judge upon, and the only real discrepancies between Arya and Joffrey's testimonies is who started it.

 

3 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

Robert is weak and could be forced to face up to the facts - for example by a star witness who turns the childish stories into solid, confirmed, witnessed evidence. He might also have his parental conscience woken if he repeatedly has the threat to Joffrey shoved under his nose.

Both sides already agree on these 'childish stories.' 

 

3 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

I think Sansa could be most effective here by pleading for mercy. The Starks don't need justice, given that Arya is guilty under law. They need mercy. It all depends on Robert.

Robert isn't a mad Targ - it is clear (shown by him continuing the trial when the basic facts of what happened had been established) that he would only seriously punish Arya for attacking Joffrey if it was deliberate and unprovoked. Sansa needs to tell the truth to support her sister to ensure Robert believes Joffrey started it. It is only due to the King's fortunate desire to prevent all further conflict that he makes no decision, as the account of a crown prince would outweigh that of Arya.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

48 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

This is what Robert says:

See where that's leading? He's saying there's no reliable evidence. We don't know what happened. There's no proof of a crime.

Saying this helps out the Starks, but he's running roughshod over the statements by Arya and Joff that Arya did in fact attack and injure the crown prince, and so did the direwolf.

Robert is good at ignoring the truth, and this time it's admirable. But his position is weak. As you say, no-one's suffering from short-term memory loss, and the Lannisters will be using all their power and influence for revenge.

Robert is weak and could be forced to face up to the facts - for example by a star witness who turns the childish stories into solid, confirmed, witnessed evidence. He might also have his parental conscience woken if he repeatedly has the threat to Joffrey shoved under his nose.

I don't understand what you mean by 'derive with the instigator'. I think Sansa could be most effective here by pleading for mercy. The Starks don't need justice, given that Arya is guilty under law. They need mercy. It all depends on Robert.

I'm beginning to feel the same.

Let me repeat the facts that you outlined in your previous post:

• Arya gave Joffrey a head wound with a stick
• Then she threw a rock at his head
• Then her pet wolf attacked him
• Then, when he was down and helpless, she snatched the sword and raised it to strike

These are not denied by anyone. Not by Joffrey (of course) but --more importantly-- nor by Arya. There's no need to prove them because a.) both parties agree on those and b.) there's hard evidence.

If Arya is simply guilty under law and that's it, Sansa's testimony is completely unnecessary since Arya freely admitted her guilt. I mean, he says she hit me, she agrees I did, why on earth should they need a third person's testimony to clarify, actually, what? (Btw, in fact, since the only discrepancy here was about Mycah's part, then Sansa's testimony is made to look even worse as it leaves the one totally innocent part of the incident exposed to fatal and entirely unjust punishment. Not that this is my reading, just sayin'.) We know that Arya is not pleading not guilty in regards to the facts above, but she's claiming that her (and Nymeria's) actions were in defence of Mycah (who is totally innocent) and herself. That's were her account and Joffrey's come into conflict - he claims that he was unprovokedly attacked by both Mycah and Arya. And that's what (the "who started it") the so-called trial was meant to clarify --that's what I mean by 'derive with the instigator', sorry if my wording was unclear-- and, more to the point, that's the only context in which Sansa's testimony can be meaningful.

But what you said is that Robert should better not be reminded of the above facts, as if it would be logically possible for him to forget what he heard --and I repeat, agreed by both involved parties-- a few minutes earlier. That's what I believe is a silly notion.

As for pleading for mercy, I don't know, perhaps it might have been a good idea (even though pleading didn't help poor Lady) but in any case it does not matter, because it's not what Ned called Sansa to do there, neither what Sansa herself decided to do instead.

[INCBlackbird]

On 21-9-2016 at 9:54 PM, Emie said:

I'm glad that over the years Sansa has become one of the most popular character's of both the books and the show, but I also find it frustrating that some people, especially in the media like to vilify her for no reason other than mistakes that she made years ago. Starting from the time she "lied" to the Lannister's about Joffrey and Arya's fight in the Riverlands which ultimately led to the death of Lady. When that happened, Sansa was still only a child and very naive about the world and what to do in very grown up situations. At that time, she still believed in fairy tales and songs and handsome, charming princes and noble knights who are compassionate and kind-hearted. She honestly thought that Joffrey was nice because of the way he acted around her, but he only SLOWLY started to show his true self after this incident. Then Sansa is thrust into a VERY difficult position someone her age should never have to deal with. She is being demanded to know what happened. Now from what we know of her, she was usually the type of person who never wanted to anger people. She wanted to please everyone and make people feel happy and try to come up with the best solution possible. In her mind, she thought that if she told the truth, Joffrey would be SO angry with her that he would banish her from court, and that his mother might possibly be angry enough to hurt her or even Arya for her daring to make an accusation like that. If she lied, the Lannister's would still be angry, but that anger would be directed at Arya and they would try to hurt her family. So even at that time, Sansa was smart enough to realize that no matter what she said, her family would be screwed either way, so she believed that saying she didn't know what happened and try to stay neutral, hoping that no one would get in trouble. It's VERY unfair for them to put so much on so young of a person's shoulders to deal with that. 

 

I completely understand your frustration, I think that the fandom in general often expects perfection out of characters and when they make a mistake it's used as an excuse to throw all kinds of hate at them. And I often doubt that any of us would do any better giving those circemstances, it's always easy to judge as an outsider. I've seen these things with Sansa, but also with Catelyn, Theon, Jaime (to a lesser extend), Jon... and I'm sure there's a lot more to be mentioned (with Daenerys for example you get the extremes on both sides)
 

On 21-9-2016 at 9:54 PM, Emie said:

Another issue some have, is her attitude towards Arya, but again that can still be chalked up to Sansa only being a kid. Siblings fight, and are mean to each other, that's a normal part of growing up. Even Arya could be mean to her too. But the way I see it, is that Sansa was mostly just frustrated with Arya because she wanted her to be a "proper lady" too. She cared about her and thought she knew what was best for her and didn't want to see her get hurt with her trying to "act like a boy". But throughout all of the books she always mentions how she would love to see her family again, including Arya. I believe she really wants to make up with her and everyone else who is still alive. She even wishes to see Jon again, even though they were never that close. It's quite sweet. 

Over the next four books we really get to see how lovely Sansa really is. The way she acts around the Hound, with Margaery, Tyrion, trying to help calm the ladies and pray with them during the Battle of the Blackwater, among many other things. She is truly a compassionate, sweet, kind-hearted person who actually cares about others. She desperately wants to believe that there is still some good out there in the world and inside of others. However, she is not as naive as she once was. We see her growing intelligence, and her growing understanding in playing the game. She also gets to be surrounded by interesting characters and get tangled up in interesting plotlines along the way. She is NO longer the "shallow, mean little girl" from the first book. She is now becoming a very lovely, smart and interesting character in the series. And I can only hope we will see great stuff from her in the future books. 

Another thing, is that she did NOT cause her father's death. She told Cersei about what was going on because she was a scared little girl that didn't know any better. And she even begged them not to do anything to him. She thought they would be merciful and not harm him, but instead Joffrey betrayed his promise and had him killed. So the whole thing was Joffrey's fault, not Sansa obviously. She was the one who tried to stop it. Then she saw how much of a monster the Lannister's truly were. (except for Myrcella and Tommen though) 

Sansa was a teenage girl who really can't be held responsible for the consequences of her actions, a lot of people act like she intended those things to happen. Obviously she didn't, she was 13 years old and these people expect her to be as self-aware as an adult (not that most adults even are.) And the moment she realised that Joffrey was a monster she grew up pretty damn fast. I think she's one of the strongest characters in these books and people rarely give her credit for it. she's one of the few characters who actually managed to held on to herself and her own principles through all the trauma she endured.
 

On 21-9-2016 at 9:54 PM, Emie said:

I honestly think that the whole "Sansa vs. Arya" thing is simply because in this day and age, misogyny is sadly still strong, and people believe that girls and women who are masculine are "cooler" or "better" than girls and women who are feminine or "girly-girl". Some people see Sansa as the ultimate stereotype on the "bitchy popular girls (and boys) from school" who were mean to students and they like to hate on her just because of that. Simply because she likes to do "girly" things. Even though there shouldn't be anything wrong with that. I also find it "interesting" that someone like Jaime is allowed to become likable early on and become a "better person and more developed" even though people for some reason tend to forget that he pushed a child out a window and paralyzed him and he felt no remorse about that, when the only bad thing Sansa did was not tell the whole truth about Joffrey and Arya and told Cersei about her father, and all of a sudden she's the "villain". That is kind of messed up and makes no sense. That's another thing that shows how misogynist society is. It's more acceptable to forgive a male, but a young female who never even tried to kill anyone gets dumped on and some forget how much better she also becomes later on. That's really sad to me. 

But anyway, I'm still happy that she has become a more popular character as time has gone by. Although I have noticed a definite increase in her popularity due to her characterization in GoT season six, especially with how people are saying she finally became a "badass". 
 

This, I strongly disagree with though. All the talk of sexism is just the crazy feminists looking for problems that aren't there so they can blame everyone else for their own problems and shitty personality. that may sound harsh but if you are on tumblr like I am that is the truth. I'm sure there's still some sexism in the western world, and yes stereotypes exist, but they exist for men as wel as for women. men are supposed to be "strong" and not show their emotions (this is one of the reasons why 80% of the suicides are men. Also the stereotype of the "bitchy popular girls from school" is because those exist. Because women generally have less body strength they tend to lean more to emotonal abuse. And again, almost half of the domestic abuse cases are women abusing men, yet no one cares, those men are laughed at (just like they are laughed at when they are raped. excus me when I consider that more serious sexism then catcalling, or god forbid man-spreading, or the sexist-in-itself term "mansplaining")) because a lot of people don't know that hitting someone or physical violence in general is a symptom of the actual problem, which has more to do with power and emotional abuse. Also you give the example of Jaime vs Sansa, I give you the example of Daenerys vs Jaime/Theon. crucifying more then a hundred people, torturing and god knows what else Dany has done is all a okay, she's a hero (and mind you she is not a "masculine girl") because.... idk why... but killing/attempting to kill two children means that Theon and Jaime are the devil incarnate.

And now that I'm on the topic of jaime.... I agree that Sansa has done nothing wrong, and I don't really expect her to ever do anything wrong, and Jaime has (and people who hate on Sansa and love Jaime are ridiculous... at least if it's about what they did wrong, if they just don't like the character fine of course) but Jaime is the only person who noticed how hypocritical the code of knighthood was. h's the only one who recognized that honor is a lie because he, similar to sansa, had a romantic idea of the world. Where Sansa wanted to marry the kinght in shining Armour, Jaime wanted to be him, when he realised that he couldn't and got traumatised by what he had to witness he became bitter. Jaime litarly acts the way he does because he couldn't be that perfect knight, because he thinks it doesn't exist and he's given up trying. He uses humor to hide shame. he might not show it but I think he's one of the best people in those books (now let all the posts come how point ou to me that Jaime tried to kill Bran as if I don't know that)

[Mladen]

1 hour ago, Horse of Kent said:

Robert isn't a mad Targ - it is clear (shown by him continuing the trial when the basic facts of what happened had been established) that he would only seriously punish Arya for attacking Joffrey if it was deliberate and unprovoked. Sansa needs to tell the truth to support her sister to ensure Robert believes Joffrey started it. It is only due to the King's fortunate desire to prevent all further conflict that he makes no decision, as the account of a crown prince would outweigh that of Arya.

The problem with this interpretation is that Robert, as a King, does have all the power. And another issue is that he needed Sansa's testimony. He didn't. He told Ned in KL that he was sure who was at fault. He perfectly knew what issues Joffrey had in his pretty little blonde head. He knew how bloodthirsty is his assumed son. But, when things got out of his hands, instead of pulling it back, he put the weight of decision on 11-year-old child, put between her sister and her future husband.

1 hour ago, ShadowCat Rivers said:

If Arya is simply guilty under law and that's it, Sansa's testimony is completely unnecessary since Arya freely admitted her guilt. I mean, he says she hit me, she agrees I did, why on earth should they need a third person's testimony to clarify, actually, what?

Technically, under the law, Arya is guilty. None of us can deny that. The issue is that Arya, unlike Duncan or Mycah, is Lady of the Great House, daughter of Warden of the North, with the name that carries some weight. So, laws, as existent as they are, don't so easily apply here. That said, Arya most certainly wasn't hiding for three days because she did the right thing. She knew that she crossed the line and she was afraid of the punishment.

Now, was she in danger? That is a question we can answer from many different POVs. From Cersei's, yes. Jaime would have killed her had not Stark men found her first. Was she in danger from Robert? No. Robert is reluctant to take this on the next level, putting all of it behind them. But Cersei, and Ned too, were at each other's throat in proving who is right and who is wrong. And while Ned knew what happened, he also unnecessarily pushed to prove that it was Joffrey's, not Arya's fault. He had every right to do so but it wasn't the most sensible decision. It is funny that, instead of making it as Robert said "child's play", he pushed for clarifications, not for a second thinking in what position he is putting Sansa. But Sansa tried to be on everyone's side. After all, she didn't lie and confirmed Joffrey's story, which would undoubtedly be a treason. And when Robert finally concluded it, it was Cersei who struck the chord of the issue and then instead of Arya, attacked much easier target - the wolves. And we all know that Nymeria wouldn't enjoy the same privilege Arya enjoyed. Just like, unfortunately, Mycah didn't.

So, the clarification itself is not what Robert was asking here. But is what proud Lord Stark wanted. For whatever reason those may be (as he was also hoping to solve this privately). Robert would have never harmed Arya. The others, regardless the reason, were not that safe.

[sweetsunray]

10 hours ago, Winter's Cold said:

Alright Sansa has no idea what Tears are. But then, Lysa states, "And I wrote Catelyn and told her the Lannisters had killed my lord husband, just as you said". Thus, she states that the Littlefinger led the Starks to believe that the Lannisters killed her husband Jon Arryn. Surely, this statement is enough to show that Littlefinger fomented the tensions between the Stark and Lannister families. Thus, he is not a friend of the Starks.

If she can't figure these things out, how will she ever become some sort of power in the future as you claim? She's more fit to be a hostess than any kind of cunning political player.

First of all, Sansa knows nothing about the letter beforehand. She doesn't know that it was sent to WF at the same time the king was at WF. She does not know that the letter influenced her father into agreeing to become Hand, and therefore the betrothal. So, Sansa has no context to figure out Lysa's ramblings.

Lysa was rambling before that, mixing up Cat with Sansa, and then tried to kill Sansa in her jealousy over LF kissing her. Lysa was not wrongly paranoid, but she attacked the victim, rather than blamed her psychopath husband. Sansa heard Lysa say stuff within the context of a woman who in her eyes obviously had lost her marbles. Add the shock of your adult aunt trying to throw you out of the moon door, and this is the natural setting for avoiding cog-dis, which is something we already know Sansa is prone to do. I say natural setting, since most people would under these circumstances avoid cog-dis. This is a classic drama-rama scene where a psychopath's target goes off into the deep end, losing control, and accuses, while the psychopath remains calm and understanding and pretends to be empathic, and fools the audience into believing the target is crazy and the psychopath the sane one. I recommend the '44 "Gaslight" movie of the crazy-making tactics. Almost anybody who witnesses a scene as that of Lysa spilling all her emotions because of waiting a lifetime to be with him and then fearing someone else will snatch it away from her, with LF sounding rational, empathic and calming, would pretty much dismiss her as nuts and unreliable.

However, Sansa actually proves she's not as ready anymore to do the same thing as she did when locked in the room with Jeyne Poole as the Lannisters slaughtered her father's household outside in the yard. The avoidance of cog-dis in aGoT was extreme then. This time, she recognizes that LF is serving her lies as well. She does not block out what Lysa said either. They "trouble" her, meaning that she thinks of them. LF suggests the way out by dismissing them as ramblings, and "you saw how mad she was." And he literally saved her life (twice), which is a fact that she cannot deny. That also happened. And yet this time she has a voice telling her that he saved Alayne, and not Sansa.

This is actually quite phenomenal skepticism from Sansa's part, both in comparison to her previous mental jumping through hoops tactics she did in aGoT as in comparison to most people in that situation. Most people would not even question LF's presentation of the situation and embrace it. Some would have a moment of doubt, but eagerly want to lay it at rest. The fact that Sansa does not lay her doubts at rest is enormous mental development. 

She also realizes that he's wearing a mask. The mistake she makes is to think that LF (the selfish scheming manipulator) is the mask and that Petyr (the seeming empathic one who is helpful) is the true face. It is of course the other way around.

LF has almost everybody fooled for over a decade (Cat, Lysa, Ned, Renly...), including other schemers: Tywin, Cersei, Tyrion. Even those who think he's a selfish, scheming guy underestimate him, do not fathom how deep and wide his manipulations go, or overestimate themselves in comparison to him. He has a mask for everybody, presenting each time a personna that makes them believe they can use him for their own ends, never knowing how much more he uses them. And Sansa is one of the few who in a way can admit to herself what LF is. The problem is that she is dependent of him and believes she has nobody else.

[Philokles]

5 minutes ago, Risto said:

The problem with this interpretation is that Robert, as a King, does have all the power. And another issue is that he needed Sansa's testimony. He didn't. He told Ned in KL that he was sure who was at fault. He perfectly knew what issues Joffrey had in his pretty little blonde head. He knew how bloodthirsty is his assumed son. But, when things got out of his hands, instead of pulling it back, he put the weight of decision on 11-year-old child, put between her sister and her future husband.

At this point Robert had made it clear that he was interested in more than the basic question 'did Arya hit Joffrey or not?' as he continued the trial once that issue had been resolved. Sansa and Ned were not to know at the time that Robert was well aware Arya was telling the truth. Based on their knowledge at the time, Sansa's testimony could be the difference between Arya being severely punished for something she did not deserve or not. Thankfully Sansa's betrayal only led to Lady's death. 

[ShadowCat Rivers]

15 minutes ago, Risto said:

Technically, under the law, Arya is guilty. None of us can deny that. The issue is that Arya, unlike Duncan or Mycah, is Lady of the Great House, daughter of Warden of the North, with the name that carries some weight. So, laws, as existent as they are, don't so easily apply here. That said, Arya most certainly wasn't hiding for three days because she did the right thing. She knew that she crossed the line and she was afraid of the punishment.

...

My point was not whether she was guilty or no, tecnically or otherwise, but that the trial was not about determining her technical guilt, because there was plenty of evidence about that, as well as her own acceptance. The point was that, if determining the technical guilt was the purpose of the trial, then Sansa's testimony is, by all logic, entirely unnecessary.

And yes, I agree that Arya as a very highborn person would have a different and far more favourable treatment than the Duncs and the Mycahs of their world ever would.

[Mladen]

4 minutes ago, Horse of Kent said:

At this point Robert had made it clear that he was interested in more than the basic question 'did Arya hit Joffrey or not?' as he continued the trial once that issue had been resolved. Sansa and Ned were not to know at the time that Robert was well aware Arya was telling the truth. Based on their knowledge at the time, Sansa's testimony could be the difference between Arya being severely punished for something she did not deserve or not. Thankfully Sansa's betrayal only led to Lady's death. 

Well, Sansa didn't confirm the Joffrey's story so Sansa never actually put Arya in danger. Even after her testimony, it was Joffrey against Arya and Robert wasn't gonna rule on that.

[Mladen]

1 minute ago, ShadowCat Rivers said:

My point was not whether she was guilty or no, tecnically or otherwise, but that the trial was not about determining her technical guilt, because there was plenty of evidence about that, as well as her own acceptance. The point was that, if determining the technical guilt was the purpose of the trial, then Sansa's testimony is, by all logic, entirely unnecessary.

And yes, I agree that Arya as a very highborn person would have a different and far more favourable treatment than the Duncs and the Mycahs of their world ever would.

Yes, I would agree on that. The problem is that there were others who didn't care about how much damage this can cause.

[sweetsunray]

Just now, Risto said:

Well, Sansa didn't confirm the Joffrey's story so Sansa never actually put Arya in danger. Even after her testimony, it was Joffrey against Arya and Robert wasn't gonna rule on that.

Sansa changed her testimony into "Arya did it!" quite soon. And later insists to Arya that Mycah attacked the prince (which is a total lie, because Mycah never did).

[Mladen]

1 minute ago, sweetsunray said:

Sansa changed her testimony into "Arya did it!" quite soon. And later insists to Arya that Mycah attacked the prince (which is a total lie, because Mycah never did).

Sansa wasn't referring to "Arya attacked Joffrey", her "Arya did it" refers that it was Arya and Nymeria who were involved in the incident, not Lady. Her words are not change of testimony, in any reasonable way. As for latter, we do know that Sansa shaping her memories to overcome traumas is something important to her arc. 

[INCBlackbird]

On 22-9-2016 at 2:35 AM, Protagoras said:

I mean, I can understand that you are a fan of certain characters and want to defend them, but there is a big difference between pretending that certain actions didn´t happen and owning your characters mistakes and defending them for what they are.

I mean, I am a big Daenerys fan since I like her personality, but you wont hear me say that Daenerys didn´t really mean to kill Mirri, that she was in emotional shock, that it was someone elses fault etc etc. No no. I am well aware that Daenerys murdered Mirri in retaliation for the broken promises and I loved that she did it. Mirri deserved what she got. But that doesn´t make Daenerys innocent nor would I want her to be. Daenerys is very much at fault for her naive mistake of trusting Mirri, and Drogo as well as her unborn son died because of them. I like a character with flaws. It makes them more human. The tragedy in it make me relate to it better. Sugarcoating on the other hand denies me a good character.

I don't think that @Emie was pretending that certain actions didn't happen. She was merely pointing out that Sansa was a thirtheen your old girl, and to hate her for mistakes she made when she didn't know any better is a bit silly. I understand why people might dislike the character, she doesn't act like a very likeable person in the first book (just like I understand that my own fav, Theon, isn't a very likeable person throughout his acok arc) But what annoys me is that people can't just say "I dislike her personality" it's always gotta be about "she did that", because their opinion has to be the "objective truth" rather than just a matter off "I don't like characters with this type of personality"

To get to the Daenerys thing. you say yourself "I like her personality" which in my opinion is all you really have to say, cause which characters we like/dislike is mostly something personal. But if you're gonna discuss her actions and why she did them, you need to understand her (which in most cases fans of a character do) Now if Someone went "Dany is evil for killing Mirri" and if she were in emotional shock (which I don't know if she was, I'm not a fan of the character and i'm not gonna reread that chapter because it's all hypothetical anyways) that is a valid defense. It doesn't mean she didn't do anything wrong, it means she was emotionally compromised (just like Sansa was because of her age and consequenctly her lack of experience), she made a mistake, And I for one love the characters I love for how flawed they are, like you say that you do as well. Those flaws are what make the characters interesting and realistic, I wrote an entire 300 page book on theon's flaws, his flaws are also what make him sympathetic to me that's why I point them out when I am defending him. "Theon tends to do this when in this situation..." because if it weren't for that flaw he wouldn't have made the mistakes he did.

Now something I for example don't agree with is this: "Daenerys is very much at fault for her naive mistake of trusting Mirri", that is victim blaming, you are saying that she is at fault for not forseeing that someone would do something bad to her. She might have been naive yes, but she was what? 14? She was unable to understand the situation from Mirri's perspective that is unsurprising. What Mirri did is not on her, what she did is on her: burning an innocent woman because she was angry and Mirri was the best person to work that anger out on.

[sweetsunray]

4 minutes ago, Risto said:

Sansa wasn't referring to "Arya attacked Joffrey", her "Arya did it" refers that it was Arya and Nymeria who were involved in the incident, not Lady. Her words are not change of testimony, in any reasonable way. As for latter, we do know that Sansa shaping her memories to overcome traumas is something important to her arc. 

Within the context her "Arya did it!" is not referring to their involvement, but who instigated it, because it was well established that Arya and Nym did assault the prince. This is later confirmed with how Sansa inherently blames Arya.

Yes, I pointed out how Sansa's reshaping memories is important to her arc, but it still shows that Sansa chose Joffrey... It had nothing to do with "protecting Arya", but everything with "protecting Joff". Sansa lies by reshaping her memory, but is very conscious and feels guilt over lying otherwise. She did not want to tell the factual truth before Robert, because it would make look Joff bad. She could not fully lie either, not with her father standing there. So, she said "I don't remember".

And no, it's not to overcome trauma... She does not reshape her memory to overcome trauma, but to support her desires and wants.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

26 minutes ago, Risto said:

Yes, I would agree on that. The problem is that there were others who didn't care about how much damage this can cause.

I don't understand what you mean by that...

[Philokles]

28 minutes ago, Risto said:

Well, Sansa didn't confirm the Joffrey's story so Sansa never actually put Arya in danger. Even after her testimony, it was Joffrey against Arya and Robert wasn't gonna rule on that.

Again, I see no way Sansa could have known that. Yes, Arya was in a privileged position in comparison to Mycah, but her words would have been outweighed by the heir to the throne if it came to it. 

[Woman of War]

 

20 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Agreed. That is exactly what Littlefinger and Cersei do.

Littlefinger uses one particular sentence in relation to Nestor Royce, Marillion, etc. "Do you wish more blood on your hands?" (paraphrasing). She sees Marillion floating before her, and then Dontos. And to this she gives in finally and says "no".

Sansa shows a peculiar mix of reactions to Marillion. She can't help think of his eyes and fingers, and she hopes Maddy just made it up. She tells herself not to feel pity for the creep, reminding herself what an anwful man he is. And she wants him dead to have the singing stop that reminds her she's lying.

So, on the one hand we see her wanting to get rid of the source who makes her feel guilty, reminds her of her lies. But she also feels pity (pity is an intellectualized emotion coming from affective empathy), and tells herself not to, and yet she can't stop it. 

It's imo wrong to make her out to be an empath who cares for strangers (she doesn't), but it's just as wrong to claim she is incapable of empathy and purely selfish. She's right smack in the middle, average.

This is very well said.

Some fans feel the need to style her favorite Sansa into someone very special. Why? As if it were illegitimate or below standards  - or simply boring - to like and to root for a character who is nothing but, well, average. Sansa is like any of us in this strange world, she is our eyes and ears, she sees and remembers a lot without always understanding, her POV's allow us to draw our own conclusions without spoonfeeding us solutions and clever deductions. No, she cannot be the special heroine with superpowers, neither intellectually nor emphatically. Her role in the story is to lead us, clueless newcomers like her, into Martinworld, easy access.

[Lost Melnibonean]

7 hours ago, Risto said:

One has to wonder WHAT KIND OF MAN would continue with engagement and let his daughter marry such a man. 

At what point would you have had Eddard renege the betrothal? 

[Lost Melnibonean]

7 hours ago, Risto said:

No. Sansa heard Lysa rambling those things in quite distraught state. We were able to connect all those dots because, well, we have been privy to the number of POVs, especially Catelyn's. Sansa doesn't know what letter, what the consequences were, plainly, she has snippets of information that came from her crazy aunt. Now, she needs something to connect everything. I do believe she will eventually, but for now, it is logical for her not to guess everything right. It would be quite the logical leap for her to guess everything from Lysa's ramblings. 

So, she's daft? 

[chrisdaw]

Only a player would reverse engineer what happened from what Lysa dropped. And that's the point. It's not more information Sansa needs, it's a mindset, one she is growing towards. Working it out will be a demonstration of her growth.