TTTNE CDLXVI - Return to Castle Spam-a-lot

[Jen'ari]

I drank way too much vodka last night .

[The BlackBear]

44 minutes ago, Lord Sidious said:

My main issue was with that whiny,emo brat, a true embarrassment to the Dark Side, although I have high hopes for Rey, she's going to turn.

Actually it's my second, I'm an accomplished rapper:

 

 

[First of My Name]

3 hours ago, RhaenysB said:

I saw it alone and I have no regrets. I had a very annoying week and I'm sick of adjusting to other people and waiting for their calendar to have an empty spot so I can see a movie I want to see. As if my calendar was empty. It's not. So I said hell, I'll go anyways.  I'll watch it again with company when everybody is free but I wasn't going to wait for that to happen for a first watch. I had done that with too many movies in the past. 

Eh, I find going with friends way more fun. I was originally going to see it on a date but he's not interested anymore. I'm probably going with three friends now.

1 hour ago, ab aeterno said:

As Rhae said, go on your own. Honestly. 

Even saying this as a huge Star Wars fan, TFA is objectively a better movie than most of those in the series from a technical standpoint - better acting, better dialogue, better cinematography, better effects, etc. As a Star Wars movie in context, it's not perfect, but it's comfortably the 3rd or 4th best movie in the series overall. Its quality becomes more apparent with each viewing. 

Rewatching TFA, I get way more out of it than with ANH or the prequels, maybe ROTJ too. It's probably my third or fourth favorite movie in the franchise too, even admitting it's more of a remake than a sequel.

[ab aeterno]

TFA intentional rekindles many of the beats of ANH, to good effect - it had to show people what Star Wars could still be. But all the "remake" talk is facile. 

[First of My Name]

2 minutes ago, ab aeterno said:

TFA intentional rekindles many of the beats of ANH, to good effect - it had to show people what Star Wars could still be. But all the "remake" talk is facile. 

Spoiler

Young and lonely person who lives in a desert comes across a droid containing information vital to a rebellion. After meeting an unlikely hero, this person leaves the planet on the Millennium Falcon. Meanwhile a mask-wearing man in black uses a spherical superweapon to destroy a planet important to the rebellion. The female lead is captured by the enemy, but eventually escapes her cell on the superweapon. We wind up on this rebellion's base, where they decide to attack the superweapon with the help of X-Wing pilots. The main hero survives an encounter with the man in black, but sadly the mentor figure doesn't. The weapon is destroyed.
For bonus points: there's a small oddly-colored creature who gives advice and an old Jedi hermit who lives in seclusion but mentors the hero after the first mentor dies.

Which episode am I describing here? Honestly ab, I like TFA, but the complainers most certainly have a point. I'm hopeful Episode 8 will differ more however.

[ab aeterno]

6 minutes ago, First of My Name said:

  Reveal hidden contents

Young and lonely person who lives in a desert comes across a droid containing information vital to a rebellion. After meeting an unlikely hero, this person leaves the planet on the Millennium Falcon. Meanwhile a mask-wearing man in black uses a spherical superweapon to destroy a planet important to the rebellion. The female lead is captured by the enemy, but eventually escapes her cell on the superweapon. We wind up on this rebellion's base, where they decide to attack the superweapon with the help of X-Wing pilots. The main hero survives an encounter with the man in black, but sadly the mentor figure doesn't. The weapon is destroyed.
For bonus points: there's a small oddly-colored creature who gives advice and an old Jedi hermit who lives in seclusion but mentors the hero after the first mentor dies.

Which episode am I describing here? Honestly ab, I like TFA, but the complainers most certainly have a point. I'm hopeful Episode 8 will differ more however.

You'll learn that you can do that to just about any story quite easily. Especially fantasy stories, which tend to follow the Hero's Journey. There was recently one on Imgur doing the same for Star Wars, LotR and Harry Potter. It's not flawless, but it makes its point.

I could also pick apart your argument entirely, because a lot of your points are just wrong, but I really can't be bothered.

[First of My Name]

57 minutes ago, ab aeterno said:

You'll learn that you can do that to just about any story quite easily. Especially fantasy stories, which tend to follow the Hero's Journey. There was recently one on Imgur doing the same for Star Wars, LotR and Harry Potter. It's not flawless, but it makes its point.

I could also pick apart your argument entirely, because a lot of your points are just wrong, but I really can't be bothered.

This goes beyond the hero's journey. ANH and TFA are far more similar than your example. There's also the very similar opening scenes and the way Maz's palace is very clearly based on the cantina. The visuals are part of it too. There was no need for Jakku to be so similar to Tatooine, and Kylo is too much like Vader, even if there is an in-story explanation for it. And the fact that many stories suffer from this is an not excuse for unoriginal writing. Also, 'I could pick this apart but I don't want to' doesn't work as an argument.

TFA isn't the only SW movie to suffer from this - ROTJ and parts of the prequels try to much to be like ANH. It doesn't even bother me that much, I'm just saying I can certainly see why someone would dislike the movie.

[ab aeterno]

45 minutes ago, First of My Name said:

This goes beyond the hero's journey. ANH and TFA are far more similar than your example. There's also the very similar opening scenes and the way Maz's palace is very clearly based on the cantina. The visuals are part of it too. There was no need for Jakku to be so similar to Tatooine, and Kylo is too much like Vader, even if there is an in-story explanation for it. And the fact that many stories suffer from this is an not excuse for unoriginal writing. Also, 'I could pick this apart but I don't want to' doesn't work as an argument.

TFA isn't the only SW movie to suffer from this - ROTJ and parts of the prequels try to much to be like ANH. It doesn't even bother me that much, I'm just saying I can certainly see why someone would dislike the movie.

I'm really not sure you actually watched the movie, or know nearly enough about Star Wars.

Firstly, the opening scenes are absolutely supposed to be similar. That's not a flaw. Have you never watched an Indiana Jones movie? They all open in very similar ways too; it's thematic and it's intentional. All of the OT Star Wars movies open with a Star Destroyer moving through space above a planet. It's iconic. Just like all the Indiana Jones movies open with the Paramount logo turning into scenery from the film. 

Secondly, the visuals again are intentional. Star Wars has a thematic visual style that belongs to the franchise itself. It doesn't and shouldn't vary on a film by film basis. Having said that, having Jakku be a desert planet very similar to Tatooine was unnecessary.

Thirdly, Maz's palace is influenced by the visual themes from the cantinas for the above reason. Most pubs look more or less the same on the inside as well, as Google will demonstrate. 

Fourthly, you can't reasonably complain that Kylo Ren is too much like Vader; that's the entire point. He wants to be Vader, he's trying to be Vader. But the point is, the very point that the film is making, is that he absolutely isn't Vader, no matter how much he wants to be. He's nothing like Vader, just a pale imitation, and that's exactly what he's supposed to be.

So, there, I've started picking apart this argument, and as I said, I could pick apart the first one, but it's really not worth my time. That, and I really don't care what you think anyway. I just don't like seeing SW unfairly criticized. 

As for your point about unoriginal writing, there are very few different stories, and even fewer original ones. Almost every film, book, or show is inspired in part or in whole by stories, myths or legends that came before them. What differentiates stories in is the detail, not the broad strokes. 

People are absolutely entitled to dislike the movie, but it's pretty silly to dislike a movie for being too similar to another good movie. If you watch TFA first, then ANH would be too similar to TFA. The order in which they were made is only important in your mind.

[RhaenysBee]

@First of My Name I know it's more fun to go with friends, but waiting for friends to find an empty spot in their calendar is less fun, so sometimes I just go for the average amount of fun and see whatever I want Whenever I want   hope you get to see it soon too! 

[HexMachina]

10 hours ago, Lord Sidious said:

I drank way too much vodka last night .

A lie. There can be no such hing as too much vodka. What kind of Smith are you?!

[Jen'ari]

11 hours ago, HelenaExMachina said:

A lie. There can be no such hing as too much vodka. What kind of Smith are you?!

Wait until you're in your late 20s the hangovers start to get worse .

[RhaenysBee]

56 minutes ago, Lord Sidious said:

Wait until you're in your late 20s the hangovers start to get worse .

Late 20s, my gawd, what counts as late 20s, 26 and up? 

[Jen'ari]

4 hours ago, RhaenysB said:

Late 20s, my gawd, what counts as late 20s, 26 and up? 

I'd say 27 and up?, I'm 28 so definitely closer to 30 than 20 .

[RhaenysBee]

1 hour ago, Lord Sidious said:

I'd say 27 and up?, I'm 28 so definitely closer to 30 than 20 .

Why was I under the impression that you are like 22?   Oh well. 

 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

For all the Whovians in spam;

 

[Jen'ari]

38 minutes ago, RhaenysB said:

Why was I under the impression that you are like 22?   Oh well. 

 

I don't know?, I'm not very grown up I guess .

[RhaenysBee]

1 minute ago, Lord Sidious said:

I don't know?, I'm not very grown up I guess .

Or I'm projecting my desire to be 21-2 again on you.  

 

this is such a sad goodbye. I have to abandon my sweet little baby. It's been with me in good times and bad times and it only ever deactived or froze or switched itself off less than a dozen times. Over 3 years and now life tears us apart. This is so saaaaad.  

[First of My Name]

On ‎17‎-‎12‎-‎2016 at 6:13 PM, ab aeterno said:

I'm really not sure you actually watched the movie, or know nearly enough about Star Wars.

Firstly, the opening scenes are absolutely supposed to be similar. That's not a flaw. Have you never watched an Indiana Jones movie? They all open in very similar ways too; it's thematic and it's intentional. All of the OT Star Wars movies open with a Star Destroyer moving through space above a planet. It's iconic. Just like all the Indiana Jones movies open with the Paramount logo turning into scenery from the film. 

Secondly, the visuals again are intentional. Star Wars has a thematic visual style that belongs to the franchise itself. It doesn't and shouldn't vary on a film by film basis. Having said that, having Jakku be a desert planet very similar to Tatooine was unnecessary.

Thirdly, Maz's palace is influenced by the visual themes from the cantinas for the above reason. Most pubs look more or less the same on the inside as well, as Google will demonstrate. 

Fourthly, you can't reasonably complain that Kylo Ren is too much like Vader; that's the entire point. He wants to be Vader, he's trying to be Vader. But the point is, the very point that the film is making, is that he absolutely isn't Vader, no matter how much he wants to be. He's nothing like Vader, just a pale imitation, and that's exactly what he's supposed to be.

So, there, I've started picking apart this argument, and as I said, I could pick apart the first one, but it's really not worth my time. That, and I really don't care what you think anyway. I just don't like seeing SW unfairly criticized. 

As for your point about unoriginal writing, there are very few different stories, and even fewer original ones. Almost every film, book, or show is inspired in part or in whole by stories, myths or legends that came before them. What differentiates stories in is the detail, not the broad strokes. 

People are absolutely entitled to dislike the movie, but it's pretty silly to dislike a movie for being too similar to another good movie. If you watch TFA first, then ANH would be too similar to TFA. The order in which they were made is only important in your mind.

Obviously. What remains up for debate is whether that means they were the best options story-wise. Recreating iconic moments should not be the highest priority. I don't think it's unreasonable to dislike a movie for being too similar to another one. There are always a thousand things you could do differently for every single scene. There are plenty of stories that have not been told in Star Wars movies yet; just look at the EU, or your own imagination for that matter. 

Again, I'm mostly playing devil's advocate here; I did not mind most of the similarities, like the Kylo/Vader ones - I think Kylo is a pretty original and fun concept for a villain. I'm just saying that there are reasonable reasons to dislike the movie.
I do think that your last argument is invalid. One was clearly based on the other. Had ANH been different, TFA would also have been, and not because it's a sequel. The order in which they were made definitely affected the final product.

 

On ‎17‎-‎12‎-‎2016 at 6:17 PM, RhaenysB said:

@First of My Name I know it's more fun to go with friends, but waiting for friends to find an empty spot in their calendar is less fun, so sometimes I just go for the average amount of fun and see whatever I want Whenever I want   hope you get to see it soon too! 

I have so much stuff I can watch in the meanwhile, fortunately there's always something new. I don't mind waiting (unless it goes on too long, but then I'll just ask my sister if she wants to go).

[ab aeterno]

15 minutes ago, First of My Name said:

Obviously. What remains up for debate is whether that means they were the best options story-wise. Recreating iconic moments should not be the highest priority. I don't think it's unreasonable to dislike a movie for being too similar to another one. There are always a thousand things you could do differently for every single scene. There are plenty of stories that have not been told in Star Wars movies yet; just look at the EU, or your own imagination for that matter. 

Again, I'm mostly playing devil's advocate here; I did not mind most of the similarities, like the Kylo/Vader ones - I think Kylo is a pretty original and fun concept for a villain. I'm just saying that there are reasonable reasons to dislike the movie.
I do think that your last argument is invalid. One was clearly based on the other. Had ANH been different, TFA would also have been, and not because it's a sequel. The order in which they were made definitely affected the final product.

The Lion King isn't a poorer movie for being based on Hamlet. West Side Story isn't a poorer movie for being based on Romeo and Juliet. Ran isn't a poorer movie for being based on King Lear. 

The order things are made in affects the final production, but doesn't affect its value or its quality. It only matters to you because you know one came first, and you believe that matters. The fact that one story came before another story makes no more difference to its quality or value than the fact that one cake was baked before another cake. Primacy is only relevant in your mind. 

[Buckwheat]

I am 25, in the middle of my 20s. What a weird thought.