Who told Eddard Stark about the Tower of Joy?

[Kingmonkey]

8 minutes ago, bent branch said:

You have given this sequence too much thought. The KG could have responded, "I was scratching my ass and couldn't be bothered." The result would have been the same.

On the contrary, if they'd said that, they would have been saying they were neglecting duty and honour. The whole point is that they were not neglecting duty and honour ("we swore a vow"), but that they were performing a duty that was not one of the duties that they normally would have performed as Kingsguards. 

8 minutes ago, bent branch said:

 

The only purpose of this sequence was to show Ned (and hopefully the reader) coming to the conclusion that what the KG was doing at the ToJ was more important than those other things without revealing what was so important.

That Ned's dialogue seems to be a part of the dance of the subject, part of a verbal sparring, I think it's clear that Ned knew this already, and that it is the reader who is being informed.

That said, this is a dialogue in Ned's dream, and when he dreamed it he certainly knew what was at the toj. This is not necessarily what happened, and Ned's dream dialogue may represent a foresight that Ned did not really have at the time. Thus whilst I'd say it's pretty solid that Dream Ned was expecting to find the 3KG at the toj, we simply don't have enough information to know whether or not Real Ned was expecting them to be there. I'd suspect he probably did just by the simple process of elimination -- Lyanna and 3KG were the last pieces still in the game. Until we get something more solid than a dream to go on though, it's speculation. 

8 minutes ago, bent branch said:

 

Just out of curiosity, do you think the fight occurred before or after Ned went into the tower to see Lyanna? Because if the fight happened after Ned had seen Lyanna he wouldn't have had to pump the KG for information.

I'd call it a genuine possibility, but again, we just don't know. The dream implies that the fight happened right after Ned and his men arrived, but that's the dream. In life? I'd say it's even  possible that Ned had been there for days before the fight, and that Lyanna was already dead. Take a look at my Eddard in Wonderland essay linked in my sig, where I discuss all this stuff at length.

[Geddus]

6 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

I find it very difficult to believe that Lyanna was alone when Rhaegar “fell upon her”. I speculate Benjen & the little crannog man were with her.

I don't think it's possible: when Lyanna disappeared Ned was in the Vale, Brandon was in the Riverlands about to marry Catelyn and Lord Rickard was riding south to attend their wedding. "There must always be a Stark in Winterfell", so Benjen was at home - unless of course there was some other yet unknown family member around, but I doubt it.

I agree that Lyanna wasn't alone however, she would have had an escort, they're probably the ones who told Brandon about the kidnapping (or "kidnapping").

[devilish]

10 hours ago, Geddus said:

I don't think it's possible: when Lyanna disappeared Ned was in the Vale, Brandon was in the Riverlands about to marry Catelyn and Lord Rickard was riding south to attend their wedding. "There must always be a Stark in Winterfell", so Benjen was at home - unless of course there was some other yet unknown family member around, but I doubt it.

I agree that Lyanna wasn't alone however, she would have had an escort, they're probably the ones who told Brandon about the kidnapping (or "kidnapping").

Don't you think that if someone was escorting Lyanna, he would have tried to prevent Rhaegar to take her away?

[Geddus]

Of course, that's why even the Targaryen version of the event, as recalled by Daenerys, has Rhaegar taking Lyanna at swordpoint.

But I don't understand your point, you mean that the escort would have been killed? If that's the case then I disagree, I doubt anyone would raise arms against the crown prince and his famous KG (and maybe other people as well), they'd surrender and take their grievances to their liege lord. I also don't think Rhaegar would have killed innocent witnesses, unless he was like Joffrey of course.

[devilish]

2 hours ago, Geddus said:

Of course, that's why even the Targaryen version of the event, as recalled by Daenerys, has Rhaegar taking Lyanna at swordpoint.

But I don't understand your point, you mean that the escort would have been killed? If that's the case then I disagree, I doubt anyone would raise arms against the crown prince and his famous KG (and maybe other people as well), they'd surrender and take their grievances to their liege lord. I also don't think Rhaegar would have killed innocent witnesses, unless he was like Joffrey of course.

A- I don't think that Lyanna was the kind to run with escorts everywhere. She's a wild wolf herself and she would most probably hate to be micromanaged.

B- If there was an escort then he would most probably notice that Lyanna wasn't being taken by force. Lyanna would probably tell him that she loves Rhaegar and the messenger would rely that information to Brandon, Rickard and every single member of the Stark family that count. That would mean that Brandon would have no reason to march down South like a raging bull challenging Rhaegar to a duel

C- If she was taken by force, then the escort would probably die fighting for his lady. You see, the feudal system is quite an ahole system. The crown Prince may wear nice clothes and act like a peacock but in terms of commoners/minor Lord their Lord Paramount is their true king. They own the land their subject's lands, the food they eat, the water they drink. They even own their lives and that of their wives and daughters (prima nocta). A commoner/minor lord would probably know that the crown prince > feudal lord. However they also acknowledge that the crown prince will return to his palace which is located so far away and once the dust settles their family will be subject to all sort of abuse by their Lord. So given the choice what would you do? Would you fight against the crown prince, risking your very life and probably end up dead . Or would you live another day only to watch your family being raped, your lands being burnt until, well, you, still end up dead?

 

 

 

[Clegane'sPup]

7 hours ago, devilish said:

Don't you think that if someone was escorting Lyanna, he would have tried to prevent Rhaegar to take her away?

I guess that would depend on the conversation. Prince Rhaegar, the son of the King, and two of the Kings Guard ride up, spin a tale and Lyanna says sumtin’ like, “It’s okay, I’ll go with them.” There is a theory that Rhae & Lyanna made plans at the tourney to meet up later.

 

I have some questions that maybe you or someone else can help me with.

Pappa Stark evidently was not at the tourney. The 4 pups were. Looks like:

Brandon (19) may or may not have rode from WF, Dustin’s place or Riverrun.

Eddard (18) may or may not have rode from WF or the Eryie.

Lyanna(15) and Benjen (14/13) may or may not have rode from WF.

The (ages) are based on wiki birth year and 281 being the year of the tourney.

My thinking is that the tourney, Lyanna’s disappearance and the ToJ all intertwine.

1. Did all of the Stark pups ride from WF together to attend the tourney at Harrenhal?

If someone can answer that for me I would be grateful. It may also shed some light on whether or not Lyanna was alone when Rhaegar “fell upon her.” Supposedly Rhaegar had Dayne & Whent with him.

2.  Any ideas why Lyanna would stay behind when her brothers left Harrenhal?

3.  How was and who told Brandon about his sister’s dilemma?

4.  Who told or how did Eddard learn of Lyanna’s location at the ToJ? Does Brandon’s squire, Ethan Glover have the potential to be the person who told Eddard.?

Ethan for some reason survived the turmoil at KL. He ended up riding with Eddard to the ToJ.

 

Thanks

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Ned just figured it out. Only thing that makes sense.

[Geddus]

9 hours ago, devilish said:

A- I don't think that Lyanna was the kind to run with escorts everywhere. She's a wild wolf herself and she would most probably hate to be micromanaged.

B- If there was an escort then he would most probably notice that Lyanna wasn't being taken by force. Lyanna would probably tell him that she loves Rhaegar and the messenger would rely that information to Brandon, Rickard and every single member of the Stark family that count. That would mean that Brandon would have no reason to march down South like a raging bull challenging Rhaegar to a duel

C- If she was taken by force, then the escort would probably die fighting for his lady. You see, the feudal system is quite an ahole system. The crown Prince may wear nice clothes and act like a peacock but in terms of commoners/minor Lord their Lord Paramount is their true king. They own the land their subject's lands, the food they eat, the water they drink. They even own their lives and that of their wives and daughters (prima nocta). A commoner/minor lord would probably know that the crown prince > feudal lord. However they also acknowledge that the crown prince will return to his palace which is located so far away and once the dust settles their family will be subject to all sort of abuse by their Lord. So given the choice what would you do? Would you fight against the crown prince, risking your very life and probably end up dead . Or would you live another day only to watch your family being raped, your lands being burnt until, well, you, still end up dead?

 

 

 

A) Sorry, but the idea of any noblewoman roaming the Riverlands on her own sounds completely unbelievable to me. Also, Lyanna wasn't even at home, she was a guest somewhere (Harrenhal?), I doubt whoever was responsible for her would have risked her going around alone.

B ) We don't know if Lyanna was willing to go or not (I think she was, personally, but that's just an opinion), but that's irrelevant: she was a 14 YO woman, there's no way she could decide anything. Even if she wanted to go, it would still have been a kidnapping. I think it would be in our world today, too.

C) I'm not sure they would fight to the death, they're not Kingsguards. I'm aware that people in Westeros swear loyalty to their liege lords first and foremost. However, we have seen more than once that in that world you just don't raise arms against royalty, I'm pretty sure whoever was with Lyanna would know that. And even if they decided to fight, there's no reason to think they would all be killed.

In any case, I'm curious: if you think Lyanna was alone, then how did Brandon hear about what happened?

[Macgregor of the North]

10 hours ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

Ned just figured it out. Only thing that makes sense.

This defo makes sense, but in the sense though that he figured out exactly what was going on and that Lyanna had eloped willingly etc and was likely being guarded somewhere, but I do believe he still lacked the location even after leaving KL(the sack) and he picked it up later. 

[Ashes Of Westeros]

5 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

This defo makes sense, but in the sense though that he figured out exactly what was going on and that Lyanna had eloped willingly etc and was likely being guarded somewhere, but I do believe he still lacked the location even after leaving KL(the sack) and he picked it up later. 

I still assume that there was some way between the rest of the world and ToJ. I can't believe that Lyanna would just sit and chill in her love nest and won't try to let her family know what's happened to her. The problem is Lyanna probably didn't know the exact location of ToJ. A tower somewhere in Dorne?

[Tini]

22 minutes ago, Ashes Of Westeros said:

I still assume that there was some way between the rest of the world and ToJ. I can't believe that Lyanna would just sit and chill in her love nest and won't try to let her family know what's happened to her. The problem is Lyanna probably didn't know the exact location of ToJ. A tower somewhere in Dorne?

She travelled to the tower, on horseback. She may not have the exact location of the tower - but she may have learned the names of villages and rivers they passed on the way. The servants would've known the location as well. And there will have been servants - she didn't look after herself for a year.

And the King's Guard (those present at the Tower when Ned came) knew the exact location, of course. After Rhaegar died, and she was in increasingly bad shape - she may have ordered them to let her brother know where to find her. Which would explain the "And so it begins." when they start their last fight. They had time to plan, and think things through.

[Ashes Of Westeros]

1 hour ago, Tini said:

And the King's Guard (those present at the Tower when Ned came) knew the exact location, of course. After Rhaegar died, and she was in increasingly bad shape - she may have ordered them to let her brother know where to find her. Which would explain the "And so it begins." when they start their last fight. They had time to plan, and think things through.

I agree with you. But something just doesn't sum up. Why did the KG fight Ned then and didn't let him through? Targ's case was already lost, Rhaegar dead. And Ned as Lyanna's brother would the safest person to hande her to.

[bent branch]

There are two land ways into Dorne. The first is the Boneway in the east. The second is the Prince's Pass in the west. Summerhall lies at the entrance to the Boneway. ToJ was an abandoned watchtower at the entrance to Prince's Pass. If Ned went from Storm's End to Starfall using the Boneway, he would have to cross a desert once he had made it through that pass. If Ned took the Prince's Pass he would have to go pass the ToJ. There is no way that Ned and party could have made it pass the ToJ without being seen since the location of the ToJ was chosen so that anyone approaching the pass could be seen. This tower was used in the days when there was active warfare between the Stormlands, Reach and Dorne. The reason the watchtower had been abandoned was because there wasn't active fighting between the regions (up to RR, of course). I offer this information so everyone understands the situation in their speculating.

[Tini]

1 hour ago, Ashes Of Westeros said:

I agree with you. But something just doesn't sum up. Why did the KG fight Ned then and didn't let him through? Targ's case was already lost, Rhaegar dead. And Ned as Lyanna's brother would the safest person to hande her to.

Yes, her brother was the safest person to handle her - and that is why them let him through.

They were not fighting Ned to win - if they had, Ned would not have survived that encounter. They fought him to die in battle - to die an honorable death.

They knew their case was lost. And they were King's Guard. As such, they had two options: serve the new king, or be hunted & executed as traitors. They would not serve the usurper. They upheld their vows until death. A death of their own choice.

1 hour ago, bent branch said:

There are two land ways into Dorne. The first is the Boneway in the east. The second is the Prince's Pass in the west. Summerhall lies at the entrance to the Boneway. ToJ was an abandoned watchtower at the entrance to Prince's Pass. If Ned went from Storm's End to Starfall using the Boneway, he would have to cross a desert once he had made it through that pass. If Ned took the Prince's Pass he would have to go pass the ToJ. There is no way that Ned and party could have made it pass the ToJ without being seen since the location of the ToJ was chosen so that anyone approaching the pass could be seen. This tower was used in the days when there was active warfare between the Stormlands, Reach and Dorne. The reason the watchtower had been abandoned was because there wasn't active fighting between the regions (up to RR, of course). I offer this information so everyone understands the situation in their speculating.

Thanks for that information.

The KG at the tower were not necessarily watching for visitors - but if they were on the lookout, they had time to decide how they wanted to greet Ned before he arrived.

And Ned didn't necessarily know he would find Lyanna there - he may have just decided to check out a watchtower on his way to/from Dorne - a watchtower which displayed signs of life when it should've been abandoned. But then the question arises what Ned was doing in Dorne. 

[Tini]

It just occurred to me: Maybe nobody told Ned about the tower of joy, or about Lyanna's current place of residence.

There were rumors circulating, in King's Landing, of a different nature: Lady Ashara Dayne was pregnant, or had given birth to a (still-born) daughter. And people connected this to Harrenhal, and to Ned Stark. Both Barristan and Cersei heard those rumors - and believed them. If Ned Stark really fell in love with Ashara Dayne at Harrenhal. If they had an affair that he ended because family honor demanded he marry Catelyn Tully. If he heard those rumors in King's Landing, and found out that Barristan Selmy believed them. What would Ned have done?

He would have travelled to Dorne, to Starfall, to determine the truth of the matter.

Ned was Robb Stark's father. We know what Robb did, in a similar situation. Ned Stark was married to Catelyn Tully already. He could no longer do the honorable thing, and offer marriage to Ashara Dayne. But he would have offered to acknowledge the child - a child that would still have been a bastard, but a noble-born bastard.

He didn't find Ashara or her child at Starfall. Her family couldn't or wouldn't tell him where to find her. He might have looked up the local midwife, looking for information. And maybe he found out that Ashara had sent for a wetnurse, Wylla. And Ned found the tower traillng Wylla.

Ned was surprised to find no less than 3 members of the KG at the tower. He may have been equally surprised to find Lyanna.

[No one is here]

I think that it is entirely possible that Ned was given the location through prayer to the Weirwood trees.  The foreshadowing is there when Bran is able to communicate with Ned through his vision.  GRRM rarely does these foreshadows without a purpose.  I could not be sure if it would have been BR or Bran.  Also, I do not think that Varys would give up the location to a true Targ heir.  It just doesn't match his MO. 

[Macgregor of the North]

2 hours ago, No one is here said:

I think that it is entirely possible that Ned was given the location through prayer to the Weirwood trees.  The foreshadowing is there when Bran is able to communicate with Ned through his vision.  GRRM rarely does these foreshadows without a purpose.  I could not be sure if it would have been BR or Bran.  Also, I do not think that Varys would give up the location to a true Targ heir.  It just doesn't match his MO. 

Welcome to the forum.

This is a possibility i have kept open in my mind for a long time. I think other ways are more likely but being a big big Bran enthusiast i have analysed the possibility of this happening.

IF, Bran was the one to do this it would likely be just a whisper on the wind through the past that Ned hears while praying to his Old Gods at the Storms End Heart tree for the location of his sister and this would not be Bran changing the past but actually being the original cause of Ned finding out the location, in a scenario known as a stable timeloop.

BUT! I ran into problems. Because Melisandre burnt the Heart tree to death the bitch, if Bran desires to look back through the Heart tree at Storms ends history will he be bale to see it? Are the trees 'memories', 'data', whatever we may call it, are they all burned away no longer to be accessed??. Would Bran be met with Darkness?

These are the questions i came to when pondering this. 

[No one is here]

20 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Welcome to the forum.

This is a possibility i have kept open in my mind for a long time. I think other ways are more likely but being a big big Bran enthusiast i have analysed the possibility of this happening.

IF, Bran was the one to do this it would likely be just a whisper on the wind through the past that Ned hears while praying to his Old Gods at the Storms End Heart tree for the location of his sister and this would not be Bran changing the past but actually being the original cause of Ned finding out the location, in a scenario known as a stable timeloop.

BUT! I ran into problems. Because Melisandre burnt the Heart tree to death the bitch, if Bran desires to look back through the Heart tree at Storms ends history will he be bale to see it? Are the trees 'memories', 'data', whatever we may call it, are they all burned away no longer to be accessed??. Would Bran be met with Darkness?

These are the questions i came to when pondering this. 

One of the possibilities is that BR or Bran passed the location to Ned through a dream.  The Stark children all have their "wolf dreams".  I believe that Ned also had these type of dreams throughout his life.  That would allow him the to receive the information without the need of a weirwood tree.  We know that he was EXTREMELY devout to the Old Gods (Catelyn tells us over and over).  Why?  Just family tradition?  Maybe.  Or maybe he learned how to commune with the Old Gods and we (the readers) have not been given that info.   I have absolutely zero textual evidence, so I'm just spit balling here, but we just do not have enough Ned POVs to really know what he knew.

[Macgregor of the North]

18 minutes ago, No one is here said:

One of the possibilities is that BR or Bran passed the location to Ned through a dream.  The Stark children all have their "wolf dreams".  I believe that Ned also had these type of dreams throughout his life.  That would allow him the to receive the information without the need of a weirwood tree.  We know that he was EXTREMELY devout to the Old Gods (Catelyn tells us over and over).  Why?  Just family tradition?  Maybe.  Or maybe he learned how to commune with the Old Gods and we (the readers) have not been given that info.   I have absolutely zero textual evidence, so I'm just spit balling here, but we just do not have enough Ned POVs to really know what he knew.

This seems far too much like Bran directly influencing the past does it not? and im not sure GRRM is gonna go down that route. It could happen of course but im not so sure.

I think we got enough Ned POV's to learn what we needed to know about him and what he thinks and believes, and i dont think he ever communed with the Old gods through dreams in his life.

In this scenario you are implying that Bran can reach through time to the past and enter a mans dreams, that is something i havent saw hinted at yet in the story and would be quite a turn of events. In this scenario do you mean that Bran is purposefully reaching Ned at that point in the past with the view to influence him directly to find Lyanna? If so, thats a very very different thing i had in mind for Bran, which is a more indirect way of influencing things, more subtle.

If Bran does it by mistake maybe without actually planning the whole action it may work but if we look at it this way, if Bran could do this wouldnt he just enter his fathers dreams or anybodys dreams and advise them against dangerous courses and in doing so rewrite the whole story?

This is not whats in store for Bran i dont think.

[One-eyed Misbehavin]

On October 14, 2016 at 8:04 AM, Ser Scott Malkinson said:

But, as I said, we don't know if they're 'nobodies' in terms of swordsmanship. And you took apart Ethan Glover and Howland Reed as if they made more sense than the rest, which I don't think is the case. I think all of them were close friends to Ned. If there is one person in his group we can be fairly certain of being a 'nobody', it's Howland Reed. And Ethan Glover spent the last year in a dungeon. If anything, THESE TWO are the ones Ned should have replaced for better fighters, if he didn't need people he could trust.

Ethan probably felt both honor-bound (northern loyalty) and even emotionally attached to the stark's (Brandon was probably cool too squire for) but I agree there had to be some kind of trust involved or he'd have taken a score maybe some archers but I firmly believe he had to balance ass-kicking ability and loyalty.

And you haters should ask Victarion how crappy those swampmen are at fighting. Bc the ironborn were getting their ass kicked. I'm sure the leader of such an odd poisoning guerilla like militia has more than a few tricks up his sleeve. Including one that saved the Ned