The COTF Master Plan: Part 1

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

7 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

@40 Thousand Skeletons

Upon further examination. I now think the dagger was LF's. 

From Jaime and Cat's talk we know the dagger changed hands to Robert. Jaime doesn't know from who though.

Rewind to the Hand's tourney:

LF makes a bet with a Baratheon that Jaime will win. Jaime loses. LF loses a bet to a Baratheon because Jaime lost. 

GRRM is giving us something here. The dagger did go from LF to Robert because Jaime lost, just as 100 dragons goes from LF to Renly because Jaime loses.

But then again my perspective on how GRRM is writing this story (and leaving us clues) is off. So I could be wrong.

I know you are already agreeing the dagger was LF's but I want to post one more quote just to back it up. Here's the conversation between Cat and Jaime:

"It was so long," she said, holding her hands apart, "plain, but finely made, with a blade of Valyrian steel and a dragonbone hilt. Your brother won it from Lord Baelish at the tourney on Prince Joffrey's name day.

Then a couple paragraphs later:

... but that dagger did change hands, I recall it now. Robert showed it to me that night at the feast.

So Jaime does not question the fact the it was LF's, and he was there. Yeah, he obviously wasn't sitting next to them when they made the bet, but that's the evidence we have.

[Ser Walter of AShwood]

As much as you are defending your theory, I personally find it hard to believe. The CoTF and humans were enemies, but sealed a pact at the Isle of Faces. During the war, the CoTF created the White Walkers as a weapon against humans causing the long winter.
After that, the Wall was built to defend Westeros from the White Walkers, possibly even with the help of the CoTF (as Mel mentions: the wall is a place of powerfull magic).
Although the WW were created by the CoTF, they were unable to control (or destroy) them, and now humans and CoTF need to work together to eliminate that threat. There are some seriously worked out theories about this, and most of this is supported by the books

(and also confirmed by the TV show, but that's a differend part of the forum).

I'm sorry, but it all seems to far fetched. The part about the knife has been handled.

About Mormont: Dead rangers (who have been missing) were found near the godswood just north of the wall. Killed with what appears to be their own weapons, but these weapons are nowhere to be found. It makes sense that the NW takes these bodies back to CB, to try and find out what happened. Jon already is thinking about the WW, but keeps his mouth shut, because he doesn't want to be seen as a boy.
The wights do still have (part of) their memory, so they try and kill the LC, to weaken the NW. This fails, and logically Mormont will want to know what happened and gets the biggest ranging party known to the NW for the last 20 years to find out if there are more wights wandering in the North and how big of a threat they are.

About killing Robert: He went on a boar hunt (which is known to be a dangerous type of hunt), he is known to drink (and get drunk) and get overconfident. Giving him more (and stronger) wine, will not only make him more drunk, but also more overconfident, stubborn and loudmouthed.
Just a couple of words hinting at the fact that he could never kill a boar singlehandedly anymore, would've sufficed to let him try.
Since he is drunk, he is slower and it makes sense that the boar would hurt him terribly if not lethal.
If his wounds weren't lethal enough, I'm sure Cercei would be able to have just a little bit of poison added to the wounds.

I'm sorry, but this theory is almost as far fetched as BloodRaven warging everybody....

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

2 minutes ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

I know you are already agreeing the dagger was LF's but I want to post one more quote just to back it up. Here's the conversation between Cat and Jaime:

"It was so long," she said, holding her hands apart, "plain, but finely made, with a blade of Valyrian steel and a dragonbone hilt. Your brother won it from Lord Baelish at the tourney on Prince Joffrey's name day.

Then a couple paragraphs later:

... but that dagger did change hands, I recall it now. Robert showed it to me that night at the feast.

So Jaime does not question the fact the it was LF's, and he was there. Yeah, he obviously wasn't sitting next to them when they made the bet, but that's the evidence we have.

This piece of text only tells us the dagger changed hands to Robert. Yes, Cat believes it started from LF, but she also thinks it went to Tyrion, which we know is incorrect. Jaime doesn't agree or disagree it statted with LF. He wouldn't know. I doubt he knows what's in LF's dagger collection. 

Jaime would have no reason to question that it was LF's. Again, how would he know? 

But I'm with you know that it was LF's. So let's move on.

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

6 minutes ago, Ser Scott Malkinson said:

With Sam, we are almost certain at least BR is involved, since CH brought Sam to the Wall. Cat running into Tyrion just makes sense since one is going north and the other south on the Kingsroad. That it happens then and there is just to move the story forward. Or would you say that Marillion, who played a role in Tyrion recognizing Cat, was also being warged by BR or something?

Exactly, Cat running into Tyrion somewhere on the road makes sense, since one is going north and the other south on the same road, so it would have been fairly easy to control the timing of both their journeys, but no I don't think the COTF can warg people, which is kind of the entire point of absorbing Bran into the weirnet.

I haven't gotten to this part of the theory yet, but I'm just going to put it out there that this story involves mother fucking time travel. GRRM has played around with time travel in his other stories, and the basic concept he uses is that consciousness can move in either direction through time. This seems to be how BR describes the weirwood trees to Bran. So I'll elaborate more in part 2, but to summarize: The COTF can likely send their collective godhood consciousness back in time and then use their powers (sending dreams, warging, etc.) like normal to change the past. However, since their powers are somewhat limited in scope, they can only change so much. Bran, however, seems to have the ability to SKINCHANGE PEOPLE. This is described as the worst abomination by Varamyr, and it is described as impossible in GRRM's other stories that have skinchanging. If Bran is absorbed into the weirnet, and potentially has the ability to go back in time and skinchange into people, all bets are off. The only catch is that they can't change too much of the timeline leading up to Bran, because then Bran may not exist or may not join them, and the timeline would change again, and they would lose that power.

And if that sounds crackpot, just keep in mind that Bran does affect the past a tiny bit his very first time in the weirnet (his father "heard" him), and GRRM has written other stories about time traveling figures in a post-apocalypse world, going back to change the past.

And real quick, just to explain why time travel does not create a paradox, take this simple kind of shitty example: let's say Bran is in 5th grade fails a math test. The COTF need Bran to pass his math test, so they go back in time 2 days and send him dreams about what he needs to study. Then Bran passes the math test, and the timeline has been altered so the COTF now always send him that dream. So on and so forth...

So prophecy is a big trick to get humans to behave in certain ways, even though the COTF can actually see into the future. But it is a "past" future as showing people visions of the future will change the timeline.

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

21 minutes ago, Ser Walter of AShwood said:

As much as you are defending your theory, I personally find it hard to believe. The CoTF and humans were enemies, but sealed a pact at the Isle of Faces. During the war, the CoTF created the White Walkers as a weapon against humans causing the long winter.
After that, the Wall was built to defend Westeros from the White Walkers, possibly even with the help of the CoTF (as Mel mentions: the wall is a place of powerfull magic).
Although the WW were created by the CoTF, they were unable to control (or destroy) them, and now humans and CoTF need to work together to eliminate that threat. There are some seriously worked out theories about this, and most of this is supported by the books (and also confirmed by the TV show, but that's a differend part of the forum).

I'm sorry, but it all seems to far fetched. The part about the knife has been handled.

About Mormont: Dead rangers (who have been missing) were found near the godswood just north of the wall. Killed with what appears to be their own weapons, but these weapons are nowhere to be found. It makes sense that the NW takes these bodies back to CB, to try and find out what happened. Jon already is thinking about the WW, but keeps his mouth shut, because he doesn't want to be seen as a boy.
The wights do still have (part of) their memory, so they try and kill the LC, to weaken the NW. This fails, and logically Mormont will want to know what happened and gets the biggest ranging party known to the NW for the last 20 years to find out if there are more wights wandering in the North and how big of a threat they are.

About killing Robert: He went on a boar hunt (which is known to be a dangerous type of hunt), he is known to drink (and get drunk) and get overconfident. Giving him more (and stronger) wine, will not only make him more drunk, but also more overconfident, stubborn and loudmouthed.
Just a couple of words hinting at the fact that he could never kill a boar singlehandedly anymore, would've sufficed to let him try.
Since he is drunk, he is slower and it makes sense that the boar would hurt him terribly if not lethal.
If his wounds weren't lethal enough, I'm sure Cercei would be able to have just a little bit of poison added to the wounds.

I'm sorry, but this theory is almost as far fetched as BloodRaven warging everybody....

I get that you find it hard to believe, and most people will, because most people (in my opinion) have been successfully tricked by GRRM. Yes, everything you said works as an explanation, but I personally think my theory fits much better and explains a lot more. And again, I've only posted part 1. Part 2 will come this weekend if not sooner. And BR warging everybody is absurd... that's what they need Bran for!  

[Ser Scott Malkinson]

3 minutes ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

Exactly, Cat running into Tyrion somewhere on the road makes sense, since one is going north and the other south on the same road, so it would have been fairly easy to control the timing of both their journeys, but no I don't think the COTF can warg people, which is kind of the entire point of absorbing Bran into the weirnet.

Are you saying BRAN warged Marillion? Still not buying it. The CotF might have influenced more than we know, but I'm not convinced this situation is one of them.

[Ser Walter of AShwood]

1 minute ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

I get that you find it hard to believe, and most people will, because most people (in my opinion) have been successfully tricked by GRRM. Yes, everything you said works as an explanation, but I personally think my theory fits much better and explains a lot more. And again, I've only posted part 1. Part 2 will come this weekend if not sooner. And BR warging everybody is absurd... that's what they need Bran for!  

Well, I sincerely hope that part 2 makes more sense, because so far, for me, part 1 makes no sense whatsoever, and I am unable to find anything you mention supported by any of your quotes from the books.
 

[Lord Lyman]

I think we have to remember, is that since this is a story, coincidences and long shots are going to happen more often then they would in real life. Most fantasy books will have moments like this, but you know very well that there is no master plan going on. This is mostly why I can't get behind any sort of master plan, whether its the COTF, Littlefinger or Bloodraven.

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

@Ser Walter of AShwood

Please don't say stuff like this! 

Show spoiler

Spoiler

There are some seriously worked out theories about this, and most of this is supported by the books (and also confirmed by the TV show, but that's a differend part of the forum).

There are a lot of people like me who are saving the show until after WoW comes out. Some people even DoS. Personally, I have only seen up to season 3. So you just ruined this for me.

Spoiler

Yes, I have read this theory and subscribe to it but now that I know it happens on the show really sucks!

 

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

1 hour ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

@Ser Walter of AShwood

Please don't say stuff like this! 

Show spoiler

  Reveal hidden contents

There are some seriously worked out theories about this, and most of this is supported by the books (and also confirmed by the TV show, but that's a differend part of the forum).

There are a lot of people like me who are saving the show until after WoW comes out. Some people even DoS. Personally, I have only seen up to season 3. So you just ruined this for me.

  Reveal hidden contents

Yes, I have read this theory and subscribe to it but now that I know it happens on the show really sucks!

 

Thank you for this post. I just want to say to comfort you that the show essentially stopped following the books after season 4 and we can't really trust anything they have done except a couple things that they specifically said were from GRRM.

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

3 hours ago, Ser Scott Malkinson said:

Are you saying BRAN warged Marillion? Still not buying it. The CotF might have influenced more than we know, but I'm not convinced this situation is one of them.

Lol no, but I am saying that even if the COTF don't have full control over a situation, they have the ability to time travel and try again and again until their plan works correctly.

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

3 hours ago, Lord Lyman said:

I think we have to remember, is that since this is a story, coincidences and long shots are going to happen more often then they would in real life. Most fantasy books will have moments like this, but you know very well that there is no master plan going on. This is mostly why I can't get behind any sort of master plan, whether its the COTF, Littlefinger or Bloodraven.

This is an excellent point. But I personally think GRRM is relying on you making that assumption so he can hide the puppet masters and their actions.

[Gertrude]

3 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

let's say Bran is in 5th grade fails a math test. The COTF need Bran to pass his math test, so they go back in time 2 days and send him dreams about what he needs to study. Then Bran passes the math test, and the timeline has been altered so the COTF now always send him that dream. So on and so forth...

Small nitpick, but Bran would have never failed that test if I understood you right. The CotF ALWAYS send him dreams to study because it is important, so there is no timeline that exists that flows like this: Bran fails --> CotF decide to send dreams.

You've spent a lot of time arguing to prove that the dagger was Littlefinger's, but didn't address a question of mine. If Bran's assassination was suppose to fail, how did they control the tricky timing of it? Summer wasn't in the room when Bran was attacked. Cat was the one who gave him time to reach the room and save the day. Cat was in a severely weakened state at that time - she could have failed to notice in time, to fight so strongly, etc. If Bran is so important, why set it up in just that way?

 

[Jon Fossoway]

Skelety, are you by any chance Preston? Your prose reminds me of his voice. That was just a small OT, I be reading your theory now now.

[Red Man Racey]

9 minutes ago, Gertrude said:

Small nitpick, but Bran would have never failed that test if I understood you right. The CotF ALWAYS send him dreams to study because it is important, so there is no timeline that exists that flows like this: Bran fails --> CotF decide to send dreams.

You've spent a lot of time arguing to prove that the dagger was Littlefinger's, but didn't address a question of mine. If Bran's assassination was suppose to fail, how did they control the tricky timing of it? Summer wasn't in the room when Bran was attacked. Cat was the one who gave him time to reach the room and save the day. Cat was in a severely weakened state at that time - she could have failed to notice in time, to fight so strongly, etc. If Bran is so important, why set it up in just that way?

 

Because, "mother fucking time travel!" ... But in all seriousness, this is a very good point. There are too many variables and opportunities for the plan to go awry. I think this theory is too convoluted and complex, relying on way too many moving parts. Sometimes a bumbling assassin is just a bumbling assassin. And in this case, one who was almost assuredly hired by Joffrey for an amount greater than or equal to 90 silver stags.

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

2 hours ago, Gertrude said:

Small nitpick, but Bran would have never failed that test if I understood you right. The CotF ALWAYS send him dreams to study because it is important, so there is no timeline that exists that flows like this: Bran fails --> CotF decide to send dreams.

You've spent a lot of time arguing to prove that the dagger was Littlefinger's, but didn't address a question of mine. If Bran's assassination was suppose to fail, how did they control the tricky timing of it? Summer wasn't in the room when Bran was attacked. Cat was the one who gave him time to reach the room and save the day. Cat was in a severely weakened state at that time - she could have failed to notice in time, to fight so strongly, etc. If Bran is so important, why set it up in just that way?

 

I'm glad you nitpicked because you did not understand me correctly. YES, there exists an initial timeline in which Bran fails his math test and the COTF decide to send dreams. In every iteration of time after that, he passes. And to answer your question, I have 2 points. First, the door was actually open and Summer could have been watching the whole fight. Second, if it goes awry, they can change the timeline to try again until they get the timing right.

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

9 minutes ago, Red Man Racey said:

Because, "mother fucking time travel!" ... But in all seriousness, this is a very good point. There are too many variables and opportunities for the plan to go awry. I think this theory is too convoluted and complex, relying on way too many moving parts. Sometimes a bumbling assassin is just a bumbling assassin. And in this case, one who was almost assuredly hired by Joffrey for an amount greater than or equal to 90 silver stags.

I'll admit if time travel didn't exist you would be correct. There are way too many variables and things that could go wrong. But since time travel does appear to exist, my theory is valid.

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

1 hour ago, King Merrett I Frey said:

Skelety, are you by any chance Preston? Your prose reminds me of his voice. That was just a small OT, I be reading your theory now now.

Lol no, but I see what you mean and that's hilarious.

[Jons bastard brother]

Not sure exactly how it will work,  but I do see hints that time travel will occur. I have seen the evidence for the boar being skinchanged before and I love that take on bobs assasination!!

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

15 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

Your standard of evidence seems super fucking high. The main evidence is that Jaime remembers the dagger changing hands and doesn't question that it was LF's, and LF throws the dagger with a "practiced" flick of his wrist, and LF says it was his. I don't know how much god damn evidence you demand to consider it probable that LF owned the dagger like he claimed, but that certainly is not "no evidence". That is... arguably 3 pieces of evidence right there if you're counting (I just did).

If you guys want more proof that it is LF's dagger than it is going to be pretty hopeless to convince you of any of my theories. GRRM can't just spoon feed us exposition (like many TV shows). That's not even the part that should be debated. It is clearly LF's dagger in my opinion. I think the points you guys made are valid, but I just think your perspective on how GRRM is writing this story (and leaving us clues) is off. But of course, that's speaking from my perspective, so it's not really much of an argument.

I feel your pain, man. It's like with, I don't know, some random example... Bran's attempted assassination. GRRM told us we'll get it resolved, we got it resolved, the pieces were put together by Tyrion, Jaime and Cersei, it isn't really that complex, one would think that that was it. The evidence of the dagger having belonged to LF isn't more complete than the evidence of Joffrey's commissioning Bran's assassination. Yet here we are. So I feel and sympathize with your exasperation one hundred percent.

I hope you'll appreciate the delicious irony, too.