Impmk2 Posted November 25, 2016 Share Posted November 25, 2016 I find it somewhat amusing that after yelling about how Clinton and Trump are both as bad as each other for months she's doing this. Has she finally had a look at Trumps environmental plans (industry at the expense of any environmental regulation) and decided that no, they're not equivalent at all? ETA: She was strongly pushing the false equivalence during the election when it mattered, for her own (attempted) gain. Now it's all over it's too fucking late, and everything she campaigned on will be undermined by the complete republican control of government. She should not get a pass for this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jace, Extat Posted November 25, 2016 Share Posted November 25, 2016 24 minutes ago, LongRider said: If nothing else, it should provide some irritation to the orange shit stain, which would be worthwhile. Exactly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jace, Extat Posted November 25, 2016 Share Posted November 25, 2016 23 minutes ago, Impmk2 said: I find it somewhat amusing that after yelling about how Clinton and Trump are both as bad as each other for months she's doing this. Has she finally had a look at Trumps environmental plans (industry at the expense of any environmental regulation) and decided that no, they're not equivalent at all? ETA: She was strongly pushing the false equivalence during the election when it mattered, for her own (attempted) gain. Now it's all over it's too fucking late, and everything she campaigned on will be undermined by the complete republican control of government. She should not get a pass for this. Also exactly. Doing the right thing far too late. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manhole Eunuchsbane Posted November 25, 2016 Share Posted November 25, 2016 34 minutes ago, Impmk2 said: I find it somewhat amusing that after yelling about how Clinton and Trump are both as bad as each other for months she's doing this. Has she finally had a look at Trumps environmental plans (industry at the expense of any environmental regulation) and decided that no, they're not equivalent at all? ETA: She was strongly pushing the false equivalence during the election when it mattered, for her own (attempted) gain. Now it's all over it's too fucking late, and everything she campaigned on will be undermined by the complete republican control of government. She should not get a pass for this. Eh, she's one of 4 people in the country that has a standing to contest. Not sure why you'd bother to question her intentions here. It might not have anything to do with preferring Clinton to Trump. She may just have doubts about the legitimacy of the totals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpaceChampion Posted November 25, 2016 Share Posted November 25, 2016 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Impmk2 Posted November 25, 2016 Share Posted November 25, 2016 55 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said: Eh, she's one of 4 people in the country that has a standing to contest. Not sure why you'd bother to question her intentions here. It might not have anything to do with preferring Clinton to Trump. She may just have doubts about the legitimacy of the totals. I honestly think she's more pragmatic than that. And I doubt she would be pushing this if the same objections were raised in the reverse scenario*. This is a hail mary attempt to change the election result, as well as having the added bonus pushing up her own profile with left wing democrats. *Not in the least as Trump would be screaming for a recount himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 25, 2016 Share Posted November 25, 2016 15 minutes ago, SpaceChampion said: Holy shit, that is funny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castel Posted November 25, 2016 Share Posted November 25, 2016 We've had the anti-Gollum (at least in terms of consequences) in Weiner, maybe we need some balance. Also:a stray thought I've been throwing around in my head: how horrible must Huma Abedin feel? Isn't she like an adoptive daughter to Clinton? Then this shit happens...Awkward dinners now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Altherion Posted November 25, 2016 Share Posted November 25, 2016 3 hours ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said: I don't think this is likely to change the result of the election, but I see no negative in rechecking the result, particularly in states where the counts are so close. Any extra complexity comes at a price: a recount is an extra opportunity to introduce fraud where there was none. I don't think this will change the results since all three states would need to flip from Trump to Clinton for it to matter, but if that should happen, the probability of bloodshed is well over 95%. If the results were going to be challenged, the time to do it was on November 9th, before Clinton conceded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manhole Eunuchsbane Posted November 25, 2016 Share Posted November 25, 2016 22 minutes ago, Altherion said: Any extra complexity comes at a price: a recount is an extra opportunity to introduce fraud where there was none. I don't think this will change the results since all three states would need to flip from Trump to Clinton for it to matter, but if that should happen, the probability of bloodshed is well over 95%. If the results were going to be challenged, the time to do it was on November 9th, before Clinton conceded. The difference in exit polling versus the actual result does suggest the potential of fraud. How does a recount introduce an extra opportunity for fraud? I would have to imagine the scrutiny involved in a recount is likely to be even more intensive than the first count. On November 9th, you didn't have the numbers you have now. Hell, California just finished their count YESTERDAY. http://heavy.com/news/2016/11/2016-exit-polls-did-hillaty-clinton-win-presidential-election-voter-fraud-donald-trump-lose-rigged/ They have expiration dates for the challenge to be filed by for a reason. That expiration is not November 9th. That said, I agree with you that an overturn of the result could be really ugly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manhole Eunuchsbane Posted November 25, 2016 Share Posted November 25, 2016 Just for a little perspective here, these are some Tweets that Trump posted (then shortly after deleted) regarding the 2012 election results... http://bgr.com/2016/11/09/trump-twitter-obama-election/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Altherion Posted November 25, 2016 Share Posted November 25, 2016 6 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said: How does a recount introduce an extra opportunity for fraud? Clearly, you are not familiar with elections in countries other than the US. There is a variety of methods, the two most popular being mixing a bunch of extra Democrat ballots among the rest (remember, the ballots are anonymous so there's no way to know if they correspond to a specific voter) and holding a bonfire in the woods where the fuel is Republican ballots. Of course, this requires either carelessness or cooperation on the part of the state so I don't think it is going to happen in this instance, but in general paper ballots are not necessarily more reliable than electronic results -- particularly when the forgers have a week or two to prepare. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Pepper Posted November 25, 2016 Share Posted November 25, 2016 2 hours ago, Impmk2 said: I find it somewhat amusing that after yelling about how Clinton and Trump are both as bad as each other for months she's doing this. Has she finally had a look at Trumps environmental plans (industry at the expense of any environmental regulation) and decided that no, they're not equivalent at all? ETA: She was strongly pushing the false equivalence during the election when it mattered, for her own (attempted) gain. Now it's all over it's too fucking late, and everything she campaigned on will be undermined by the complete republican control of government. She should not get a pass for this. I feel a bit of this. Like, ok great, Jill Stein is asking for a recount. But it would have been lovely if she'd spent the campaign season pointing out that Trump and co plan a whole scale wreckage of the environment such that our future generations will inherit a total shit planet. I wish the Green Party would just infiltrate the Dem party and then run relevant and qualified candidates. 1 hour ago, SpaceChampion said: Best thing I've read all day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manhole Eunuchsbane Posted November 25, 2016 Share Posted November 25, 2016 1 minute ago, Altherion said: Clearly, you are not familiar with elections in countries other than the US. There is a variety of methods, the two most popular being mixing a bunch of extra Democrat ballots among the rest (remember, the ballots are anonymous so there's no way to know if they correspond to a specific voter) and holding a bonfire in the woods where the fuel is Republican ballots. Of course, this requires either carelessness or cooperation on the part of the state so I don't think it is going to happen in this instance, but in general paper ballots are not necessarily more reliable than electronic results -- particularly when the forgers have a week or two to prepare. Not sure how any of that applies as this is a U.S. election. We went through this in 2000 and to the best of my memory, none of that occurred. You had the "Hanging Chad" controversy, which was bad enough, but I have faith that these recounts will give us an accurate picture and an accurate result. Honestly, given the margin of victory in the 3 states in question, this recount should've been done automatically. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
felice Posted November 25, 2016 Share Posted November 25, 2016 15 minutes ago, Altherion said: If the results were going to be challenged, the time to do it was on November 9th, before Clinton conceded. So if there has been vote fraud, you think that Clinton should have somehow known immediately, and if she lacked that supernatural knowledge, we should just let the election be stolen without looking into it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Marquis de Leech Posted November 25, 2016 Share Posted November 25, 2016 The most recent precedent I can think of was the 2008 Minnesota Senate race, which really did flip the result from the election night result. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jace, Extat Posted November 25, 2016 Share Posted November 25, 2016 So what would be worse? Proof of rigging or a Trump presidency? I am inclined to think proof of rigging would be worse but Trump's own antics about potentially not conceding makes me long even more for an overturn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Altherion Posted November 25, 2016 Share Posted November 25, 2016 20 minutes ago, felice said: So if there has been vote fraud, you think that Clinton should have somehow known immediately, and if she lacked that supernatural knowledge, we should just let the election be stolen without looking into it? There is no new information relative to what was available that night (the exit polls were available before the election results were even finalized). To be clear, I believe it is highly unlikely that even one state will flip, let alone all three. This is probably why Clinton herself is staying well away from this. It is much more likely to be propaganda aimed at further delegitimizing Trump's victory (much like the constant dribble of stories about the utterly meaningless popular vote). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Marquis de Leech Posted November 25, 2016 Share Posted November 25, 2016 3 minutes ago, Altherion said: (much like the constant dribble of stories about the utterly meaningless popular vote). The popular vote certainly has meaning: it shows how broken the Electoral College really is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manhole Eunuchsbane Posted November 25, 2016 Share Posted November 25, 2016 6 minutes ago, Altherion said: There is no new information relative to what was available that night (the exit polls were available before the election results were even finalized). So you couldn't have compared the discrepancy at that point. Again, each state has a deadline set wherein any challenge to the result has to be filed by. The Wisconsin deadline is tomorrow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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