What's it good for? - Sansa Stark

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

6 minutes ago, Greywater-Watch said:

What you say is of course possible. I have strong doubts though, as I think Sansa still is far away from a level in cleverness to be a threat to Littlefinger.

And what is your evidence? What is there which directly implies this? What is the time frame you have in mind? If there is one thing LF teaches us as a reader it is that opportunity is everything.  He is an agent of Chaos (GRRM's own words) everything he has achieved is down to taking advantage of the situations he finds himself in. Sansa only has to be in a position to take advantage in order to kill him. And in WF with Northern troops surrounding them, and the motivation to do it she absolutely can kill him. 

Tyrion only required the opportunity and the motivation to bring down the "Mighty" Tywin Lannister. All it took was for his father to be in a confined space caught unawares literally with his pants down, and for Tyrion to have the means in hand (the crossbow) and the motivation to do it (Tysha/Shae/being framed for Joffrey.)

Once an act is done it is done, no matter how clever the person who it is done to is. If Sansa has a castle full of loyal soldiers and finds out how LF destroyed her family, contrived to have her father killed, and prostituted, abused and sold her best friend. Well. all the brains in the world wouldn't save him. 

The point being she is a weakness for him, he wants her, and he wants her to want him too. He's pretty in love with himself too, and wants her to see how clever he is, he isn't clever enough though to realise that Sansa knows this is his weakness. His desire has blinded him. She's actively using his desire for her to lull him into thinking she more on board with his plans than she really is, and it's working. Just like she was astute enough to realise dumb, meek Sansa was the way to play it for Cersei and so that is how she played in in KL. And astute enough to see what LF desires, she plays the innocent child for him, but plays it flirty and dirty with Harry, who desires an all together more experienced type of girl.  

[Blue-Eyed Wolf]

2 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

I'd personally love to see her slice his head off herself. And to be honest Yes (before you ask) I do think she could do it. Given a VS blade, and a prone LF absolutely. She is almost 14, this may not happen for the best part of another year - a 15 year old could do that, physically I mean.

 

 

 

This would be completely possible as well if she had say... Widow's Wail  It was made a smaller size for Joffrey from Ned's Ice.  No one has  seen the sword in a while, so maybe it will turn up again.  It would be so appropriate since Ned was killed with his own sword because of LF.  One can only dream...  And I agree she doesn't need to know as much as LF about everyone's political dirt, or price fixing, or running a con of racking up tons of debt in borrowed money.  She just has to have a moment where he's vulnerable and trapped.  

The only thing I slightly disagree with is she is truly flirting with Harry.

Spoiler

 It's a game to suss him out for herself if she even would want to marry him.  She doesn't really say anything for the most part that is sexual until the very end but I'll get to that.  You're right that she never actually uses any of LF's advice to seduce him.  She really just cleverly banters with him.  She drops her knowledge of his bastards to test his honesty.  While he is honest (and she's showing that's something important to her in a partner), he's also extremely callous about the looks of the first girl that fathered his child.  Then he mentions Saffron and she's supposed to be "different."  I think Sansa could even forgive and understand his rudeness to her if it were because he was truly in love with Saffron and wanted to marry her.  Harry doesn't even seem to be remotely physically attracted to Sansa.  To paraphrase, he basically says "You're okay looking enough, I guess."  He does seem to warm up a little to discovering she's clever, but he's genuinely surprised she's not dumb so his assumptions about her were pretty darn low.  At the end, the only attractive thing she can think about Harry is his teeth and smile.  Like she's looking for something, anything, to keep herself from being visibly turned off.  The whole "all the spice you'll ever want" bit sounds very, very cheesy and contrived, like something she heard from Myranda.  Oh I agree she knows how to flirt, but it's charming and clever, not overtly sexual.  It's only a mere hint at sexy time, then Harry seems to forget all about Saffron.  So it's not "different" with Saffron.  It won't be "different" with Sansa either.  What she knows now about Harry from this exchange she can't ignore.  She would wind up with a husband who will spend their whole marriage following his manhood around.  Not once does she think about needing Harry to get Winterfell back.  That's telling to me that she's not willing to sacrifice herself to a rotten, loveless marriage just to go home, assuming that's not a lie. 

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[The Weirwoods Eyes]

@Blue-Eyed Wolf I think I should clarify I realise now my post wasn't really in depth enough. Sorry. 

Though all this TWOW discussion means a lot of spoiler boxes. but hey Never mind. 

Spoiler

Indeed Sansa pretty much ignores LF's advice, but yes she is flirting with him, just not flirting with him because she wants him, She does I think want to entice him in to LF's plot. And that requires her to have him become infatuated enough to say yes to the betrothal. I doubt she wants to marry him, hell she has outright declared she does not wish to marry again unless it is for love.  But the way she plays it with him is flirty, she's deduced that he likes his women a bit faster than Nobles tend to be able to act. but Alayne is a bastard, right. So she can afford to be a bit less cautious. Asking him about his bastards and having a straight up conversation about his lovers and his children isn't something a true born Maid could do, it would be off limits. She'd be expected to politely ignore them.  And the Spice line absolutely is something no true born noble maid could say, Randa might say it your right. lol. She's far more experienced though, she's been married she everyone knows she is no virgin. But even so it would be a risky thing to come out with. Sansa though has judged Harry's tastes pretty accurately, and adjusts her persona to suit her aims, here the aim is to hook him in, just enough to keep playing the game. Just like she has no intention of ever going to bed with LF, but has never the less built a persona to entice him...just enough. She has perceived that he desires an innocent young maid/

He desires the girl he fell in love with when he was young, he desires adolescent Cat. And he imagines that he can have that with her daughter, but this time instead of being the younger, and being out of his depth, out shined by the older more handsome Brandon, he is the elder and more experienced  He desires Sansa to be dazzled by him. And so she gives him that; by asking his advice, by pretending she is inexperienced in flirtation and has no idea what men want in a girl. 

So whilst I think yes she absolutely is flirting with Harry, I don't think for one second that she is doing so out of a genuine desire for him. But more as a means to an end. And the impression we are left with is that she has been successful, Harry is left chomping at the bit, he asks her favour for the tourney. And her act has left him excited and intrigued by her. She definitely has the upper hand with him now.   

 

 

[Blue-Eyed Wolf]

@The Weirwoods Eyes  I completely agree the bastard persona has been a very useful tool for moving around and doing things that would be off limits to a highborn lady.  It's been a big factor with her freedom, self-confidence, and ability to form her own relationships.   I agree that she has even built that innocent persona around LF to keep his trust while simultaneously protecting her own virtue.  It is a fascinating and revealing backstory he made her take on.  Fruit of his loins and her mother dead.  Raised as innocent as a lamb with a bunch of septas, but chooses to be with her "father."  I would really like to know why he made her choose his own mother's name of Alayne. lol    He seems to have this weakness for a madonna/whore fantasy.  He "loved" Cat, but took some glee in making her meet him in a whorehouse and bragging to everyone that he had her maidenhead.  He's doing the same with Alayne.  She's still a maid and a dutiful daughter, but she's born out of lust and bastards are considered to be looser morally.  He doesn't care about her feelings any more than he really cared about Cat's.  It then makes perfect sense that something of his own creation is also a weapon against him.   

She has outright said she only wants to marry for love and not for her claim. Well, this proposed match with Harry is essentially about her claim once her true identity is revealed.  It's hard to avoid any talk of TWOW because it directly connects with her state of mind after her final chapter in AFFC.  LF left it at revealing his betrothal plans, but we never got to read her reaction to it.    

Spoiler

I really feel the main objective of this one-on-one time with Harry and her flirting with him is about testing him.  She's putting aside what's she heard about him and is trying to learn about who he is for herself.  Can she love him?  Can he love her?  I think she finds the answer is no.  He may be chomping at the bit now, but she's learned his head can be turned with the tiniest suggestion that she'd have sex with him.  He just immediately forgot all about Saffron who was supposed to be so different from all the others.  Harry is primarily motivated by easy sex and he doesn't seem to care too much about the consequences for the women or his bastard children.  He's a young Robert Baratheon.  She's also learned first hand about the prejudices that bastards face in the world.  I'm sure she's also reminded of her own mother Catelyn and having to deal with her husband openly having a bastard son.  (We all love Jon, but the arrangement was something that would be considered humiliating to your wife).  She can see the problems with this from many points of view.  So if there can be no love or loyalty in this match, what else is left?  Her claim -- exactly what she never wanted to be married for.  She's seen how Harry covets Robert's seat by openly using the Arryn sigil on his coat of arms and she finds it presumptuous.  She even goes to LF to tell him of her misgivings about Harry and he completely disregards her feelings.  The whole chapter from beginning to end has the running theme of women being used and discarded by men.  From Mya who was so in love with Mychel Redfort and thought she would marry him to being relegated to a mistress only fit to be tumbled in the hay (see the hay in her hair and scowl), to slut-shamed Myranda who was married off to an old man and her father yet again wants to be rid of her to another undesirable suitor, to Sweetrobin assuming he has the right as lord to keep Alayne as his mistress and dishonor her to satisfy his own feelings.  This is why I don't think Sansa is actually seducing Harry for the goal of Winterfell.  I think she's flirting because that's what LF is making her do and she has to continue playing a part to keep his trust.  It certainly doesn't hurt to win as many people to her side as possible, but I think the real game she is playing is to get Harry on the hook for appearances, but then to somehow secretly undermine this betrothal.  It all depends on Harry's approval.  It's not a done deal yet.  For him to become upset enough to reject the betrothal he has to first be invested in it.  Then it looks like it all fell apart because of Harry, not through any purposeful actions on Sansa's part.  What can LF say if it looks like she did everything he told her to do?   I have a strong feeling that her favor in the tournament is going to be very important.  LF told her not to give Harry the favor anyway    It's not that she doesn't strongly desire to go home, she does.  But her situation right now is not so terrible... yet.  She has a choice between an awful potential husband or just hanging out at the Gates indefinitely.  There is staying with LF, but she also has friends now too.  Neither choice is that great or what she really wants, but she's not in imminent danger to push her to accept another bad marriage.  So we just have to wait and see to find out    

 

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[Wm Portnoy]

Sansa isn't smart.  Not in the least bit.  She's what Littlefinger has to work with but she has many faults.  Like low intelligence.  She will always need someone like Littlefinger and other men to make things happen for her.  She's going to be a player but she's not going to be successful.  So she thinks Harry is her next meal ticket to power.  It might work in the short term but it won't last. 

[Wrl6199]

Just now, Wm Portnoy said:

Sansa isn't smart.  Not in the least bit.  She's what Littlefinger has to work with but she has many faults.  Like low intelligence.  She will always need someone like Littlefinger and other men to make things happen for her.  She's going to be a player but she's not going to be successful.  So she thinks Harry is her next meal ticket to power.  It might work in the short term but it won't last. 

I mean i wouldn't say she has low intelligence. I mean yes she inst really as smart maybe as tyrion or  little finger but she certainly inst dumb. She was also young during the events of the books. Like she was still a girl in her early teens. It would have been harder for her to hatch plots like.

[Wm Portnoy]

Just now, Wrl6199 said:

I mean i wouldn't say she has low intelligence. I mean yes she inst really as smart maybe as tyrion or  little finger but she certainly inst dumb. She was also young during the events of the books. Like she was still a girl in her early teens. It would have been harder for her to hatch plots like.

Sansa is very selfish and very slow of thought.  I really can't see Sansa being an effective player.  With that said, if all she wanted to do is to take down Baelish, she can always run her mouth and reveal his plans.  She can tell everyone willing to listen that Petyr killed Lysa.  I think deep down she knows she needs Baelish.  She might decide to take him down thinking she has found another boat ride to power in Hardyng but that would be a mistake.  At least Baelish has a weakness.  Hardyng might not and give her up to the Lannisters if they make him a better offer.

[Wrl6199]

4 minutes ago, Wm Portnoy said:

Sansa is very selfish and very slow of thought.  I really can't see Sansa being an effective player.  With that said, if all she wanted to do is to take down Baelish, she can always run her mouth and reveal his plans.  She can tell everyone willing to listen that Petyr killed Lysa.  I think deep down she knows she needs Baelish.  She might decide to take him down thinking she has found another boat ride to power in Hardyng but that would be a mistake.  At least Baelish has a weakness.  Hardyng might not and give her up to the Lannisters if they make him a better offer.

I mean i wouldn't say that she was selfish. I mean when she was a child at the beginning of the book she was. I would say she still has some childish form of being selfish but also cares about other people. That is true. Part of her trusts Baelish but which i agree is a foolish move but again shes still a kid. So i would agree on most of the points you make but i think its a little harsh to call her slow of thought. She does still need him. i'm sure thigh that he has some sort of a weakness. But yeah i'm not sure if Harding would be effective in trying to go take back the north which.

[Blue-Eyed Wolf]

Omg.. you guys are totally right.  GRRM wrote a dumb as a brick POV character for 4 books just to waste everyone's time with a story that will go nowhere.  Nothing to discuss anymore.  Let's all move along.

She's so dumb, like why doesn't she just blab to everyone what LF is doing?  I mean it's not like Sansa Stark is wanted by bounty hunters for the murder of King Joffrey.  It's not like LF has shown her he can murder someone and get away with it.  Oh wait....   

[DominusNovus]

On 11/26/2016 at 7:17 PM, chrisdaw said:

No, not remotely. Ned's foray into the game of thrones consisted of trying to put the gold cloaks into his corner. Robb simply called his banners and made marriage alliances. And neither were self aggrandising.

On the Stark side there's no children being extinguished to ingratiate oneself with the throne, no cities being denied food, no acts of pageantry, assassinations, lies in secret letters, ideas implanted by way of song, deals in place of justice, secret catspaws, and on and on it goes. That is the game of thrones and decidedly against what Ned stood for and thus what the Starks of the series are known to stand for.

And this is what Sansa is learning.

I don't buy into the idea that the Northerners or Starks are so inept at politics. I agree Ned was bad at southern politics and Robb didn't understand it in general, but they're not all that there is.  Look at Rickard, Cregan, and Torrhen. All different types of successful political intrigues with southern lords.

Rickard engineered an alliance that (admittedly posthumously) took down the royal dynasty by securing most of the territories that surrounded the capital. Cregan was a powerbroker in a brutal civil war. Torrhen preserved northern autonomy in the face of overwhelmingly bad odds.

Yes, Ned is the Stark we know best, other than the children who, of course, idolize him. But his is clearly not the only type of rule that Starks have. Can you imagine him engaging in any of the political intrigues of his forebears?

[chrisdaw]

3 hours ago, DominusNovus said:

I don't buy into the idea that the Northerners or Starks are so inept at politics. I agree Ned was bad at southern politics and Robb didn't understand it in general, but they're not all that there is.  Look at Rickard, Cregan, and Torrhen. All different types of successful political intrigues with southern lords.

Rickard engineered an alliance that (admittedly posthumously) took down the royal dynasty by securing most of the territories that surrounded the capital. Cregan was a powerbroker in a brutal civil war. Torrhen preserved northern autonomy in the face of overwhelmingly bad odds.

Yes, Ned is the Stark we know best, other than the children who, of course, idolize him. But his is clearly not the only type of rule that Starks have. Can you imagine him engaging in any of the political intrigues of his forebears?

They don't encapsulate Stark values to the reader as they did not live during the series, as explained in my previous post in this topic. Their manoeuvrings are also a far cry from dead men tell no secrets or tears are not a woman's only weapon, which is what Sansa is actually learning.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

11 hours ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

@The Weirwoods Eyes  I completely agree the bastard persona has been a very useful tool for moving around and doing things that would be off limits to a highborn lady.  It's been a big factor with her freedom, self-confidence, and ability to form her own relationships.   I agree that she has even built that innocent persona around LF to keep his trust while simultaneously protecting her own virtue.  It is a fascinating and revealing backstory he made her take on.  Fruit of his loins and her mother dead.  Raised as innocent as a lamb with a bunch of septas, but chooses to be with her "father."  I would really like to know why he made her choose his own mother's name of Alayne. lol    He seems to have this weakness for a madonna/whore fantasy.  He "loved" Cat, but took some glee in making her meet him in a whorehouse and bragging to everyone that he had her maidenhead.  He's doing the same with Alayne.  She's still a maid and a dutiful daughter, but she's born out of lust and bastards are considered to be looser morally.  He doesn't care about her feelings any more than he really cared about Cat's.  It then makes perfect sense that something of his own creation is also a weapon against him.   

She has outright said she only wants to marry for love and not for her claim. Well, this proposed match with Harry is essentially about her claim once her true identity is revealed.  It's hard to avoid any talk of TWOW because it directly connects with her state of mind after her final chapter in AFFC.  LF left it at revealing his betrothal plans, but we never got to read her reaction to it.    

  Hide contents

I really feel the main objective of this one-on-one time with Harry and her flirting with him is about testing him.  She's putting aside what's she heard about him and is trying to learn about who he is for herself.  Can she love him?  Can he love her?  I think she finds the answer is no.  He may be chomping at the bit now, but she's learned his head can be turned with the tiniest suggestion that she'd have sex with him.  He just immediately forgot all about Saffron who was supposed to be so different from all the others.  Harry is primarily motivated by easy sex and he doesn't seem to care too much about the consequences for the women or his bastard children.  He's a young Robert Baratheon.  She's also learned first hand about the prejudices that bastards face in the world.  I'm sure she's also reminded of her own mother Catelyn and having to deal with her husband openly having a bastard son.  (We all love Jon, but the arrangement was something that would be considered humiliating to your wife).  She can see the problems with this from many points of view.  So if there can be no love or loyalty in this match, what else is left?  Her claim -- exactly what she never wanted to be married for.  She's seen how Harry covets Robert's seat by openly using the Arryn sigil on his coat of arms and she finds it presumptuous.  She even goes to LF to tell him of her misgivings about Harry and he completely disregards her feelings.  The whole chapter from beginning to end has the running theme of women being used and discarded by men.  From Mya who was so in love with Mychel Redfort and thought she would marry him to being relegated to a mistress only fit to be tumbled in the hay (see the hay in her hair and scowl), to slut-shamed Myranda who was married off to an old man and her father yet again wants to be rid of her to another undesirable suitor, to Sweetrobin assuming he has the right as lord to keep Alayne as his mistress and dishonor her to satisfy his own feelings.  This is why I don't think Sansa is actually seducing Harry for the goal of Winterfell.  I think she's flirting because that's what LF is making her do and she has to continue playing a part to keep his trust.  It certainly doesn't hurt to win as many people to her side as possible, but I think the real game she is playing is to get Harry on the hook for appearances, but then to somehow secretly undermine this betrothal.  It all depends on Harry's approval.  It's not a done deal yet.  For him to become upset enough to reject the betrothal he has to first be invested in it.  Then it looks like it all fell apart because of Harry, not through any purposeful actions on Sansa's part.  What can LF say if it looks like she did everything he told her to do?   I have a strong feeling that her favor in the tournament is going to be very important.  LF told her not to give Harry the favor anyway    It's not that she doesn't strongly desire to go home, she does.  But her situation right now is not so terrible... yet.  She has a choice between an awful potential husband or just hanging out at the Gates indefinitely.  There is staying with LF, but she also has friends now too.  Neither choice is that great or what she really wants, but she's not in imminent danger to push her to accept another bad marriage.  So we just have to wait and see to find out    

 

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Absolutely spot on. I completely agree. I guess I still wasn't making myself clear, but basically that is exactly what I think. That she is dangling Harry for the appearance of going along with the plan, I had thought that she was simply going to get him infatuated with her and then just keep stalling until something came along which changed the situation. I thought perhaps that she was hoping Sweet Robin's health would rally. And that she could keep putting off the marriage in the mean time. But Yea the idea that she will secretly undermine it so that he breaks the betrothal is clever. She saves face, he's rejected her. No new marriage.  I think as well that you Nailed LF here. I mean absolutely nailed him. 

I liked your observations regarding the Alayne chapter's running theme also. I hadn't picked up on that to the extent you have outlined it here. Very good chapter analysis. 

I think her gaining a Bastard persona has been great for her, it's allowed her a lot of freedom. And she's growing as a character because of that. It was a good move.  It enables her to explore the world from a different perspective and that is kinda what all our characters are having to do; Jon has to become a wildling, in order to see the world from the other side of the wall & learn that the realms of men belong to all the men and that the Wildlings deserve to pass through the wall.  Dany has to be sold & see the horrors of slavery first hand: to understand what it is to be owned by another person and how abhorrent that is, I mean it is not as if she has been in the free cities all her life and not known about slavery before, but it is after she is sold effectively to Drogo and see's the Lamb peoples enslavement that she decides this is unacceptable. Arya has to experience being no one in the RL's before she goes to the HoB&W and is able to learn the skills she needs there. And Bran has to almost die before he receives the green sight. Tyrion has reached rock bottom currently, he's murdered Shae (and his father) and now he is learning and growing due to his relationship with Penny, this is the only woman who has wanted him for himself since Tysha and him not desiring her back, has been very revealing for him. I think Tyrion is learning some lessons from loosing all his status and ability to buy women. So yeah Sansa having to experience being a bastard is in line with all the other main characters. She see's life now from the opposite end of the spectrum, and in doing so is gaining valuable insight and growth.

 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

8 hours ago, Wm Portnoy said:

Sansa isn't smart.  Not in the least bit.  She's what Littlefinger has to work with but she has many faults.  Like low intelligence.  She will always need someone like Littlefinger and other men to make things happen for her.  She's going to be a player but she's not going to be successful.  So she thinks Harry is her next meal ticket to power.  It might work in the short term but it won't last. 

Well someone hasn't been reading very perceptively.  

[Greywater-Watch]

19 hours ago, Wrl6199 said:

I mean i wouldn't say she has low intelligence. I mean yes she inst really as smart maybe as tyrion or  little finger but she certainly inst dumb. She was also young during the events of the books. Like she was still a girl in her early teens. It would have been harder for her to hatch plots like.

 

19 hours ago, Wm Portnoy said:

Sansa isn't smart.  Not in the least bit.  She's what Littlefinger has to work with but she has many faults.  Like low intelligence.  She will always need someone like Littlefinger and other men to make things happen for her.  She's going to be a player but she's not going to be successful.  So she thinks Harry is her next meal ticket to power.  It might work in the short term but it won't last. 

I am glad seeing others holding a point of view close to mine as far as Sansa's cleverness, compared to that of Littlefinger, is concerned. I sort of keep running against a wall discussing with TheWeirwoodsEyes....

[Nevets]

19 hours ago, Wm Portnoy said:

Sansa isn't smart.  Not in the least bit.  She's what Littlefinger has to work with but she has many faults.  Like low intelligence.  She will always need someone like Littlefinger and other men to make things happen for her.  She's going to be a player but she's not going to be successful.  So she thinks Harry is her next meal ticket to power.  It might work in the short term but it won't last. 

I have always found Sansa to be quite perceptive and a quick learner.  Her problem is that, due to a sheltered upbringing, she is dangerously naive, and gives herself blind spots due to an unwillingness to confront unpleasant facts or ideas.  I think her experiences in KL cured her of much of this and her time with Littlefinger will cure the rest.

19 hours ago, Wrl6199 said:

I mean i wouldn't say she has low intelligence. I mean yes she inst really as smart maybe as tyrion or  little finger but she certainly inst dumb. She was also young during the events of the books. Like she was still a girl in her early teens. It would have been harder for her to hatch plots like.

Actually, she started the series at age 11.  Even now, she is barely into her teens, as she turned 13 shortly before the Purple Wedding.  She is actually younger than Daenerys was at the beginning of AGOT.  And Dany, given her lack of initiative and total domination by her brother at that time, would have been an even less likely candidate for becoming a player than Sansa has ever been.  Characters change and grow, and Sansa is, I think, showing signs of real potential as a player.  Although, unlike @chrisdaw, I don't see her emulating Littlefinger.  She will learn certain techniques from him, but her methods and goals will be very different.

[winter daughter]

3 hours ago, Greywater-Watch said:

 

I am glad seeing others holding a point of view close to mine as far as Sansa's cleverness, compared to that of Littlefinger, is concerned.

Well...George has something to say too:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dcjj0X6h6m0

 

"...but she has her wits, the same as Littlefinger has."

 

Littlefinger is a grown man now and more experienced, but at the age of 15 he was so madly in love with Catelyn that he challenged the twenty-year old Brandon Stark to a duel for her hand and almost died for it. he wasn't Littlefinger at that time, he was just a naive young boy who actually believed he had a chance to marry Lord Hoster Tally's daughter.

Once upon a time Sansa was a naive little girl with her head in the clouds too.

Well, not anymore.

George has given her Littlefinger as a mentor/villain for a reason.

She is still a pawn in his game... but she won't remain one.

And I don't think she will be the next little finger... for that you need to be a coldhearted bastard.

 

 

 

 

[Wrl6199]

6 minutes ago, winter daughter said:

Well...George has something to say too:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dcjj0X6h6m0

 

"...but she has her wits, the same as Little finger has."

 

Littlefinger is a grown man now and more experienced, but at the age of 15 he was so madly in love with Catelyn that he challenged the twenty-year old Brandon Stark to a duel for her hand and almost died for it. he wasn't Littlefinger at that time, he was just a naive young boy who actually believed he had a chance to marry Lord Hoster Tally's daughter.

Once upon a time Sansa was a naive little girl with her head in the clouds too.

Well, not anymore.

George has given her Littlefinger as a mentor/villain for a reason.

She is still a pawn in his game... but she won't remain one.

And I don't think she will be the next little finger... for that you need to be a coldhearted bastard.

 

 

 

 

That is true too. Most people seem to forget that little finger was really foolish. I mean he challenged a guy who was five years younger then him. But as I said shes obviously not that clever but I agree that she has room to grow as a character. I still dint think that she will become the mastermind little finger is. But i guess we will have to see if she turns on little finger throughout the next book. I think we will have to see how her relationship with Harold harrying goes.

[winter daughter]

57 minutes ago, Wrl6199 said:

That is true too. Most people seem to forget that little finger was really foolish. I mean he challenged a guy who was five years younger then him. But as I said shes obviously not that clever but I agree that she has room to grow as a character. I still dint think that she will become the mastermind little finger is. But i guess we will have to see if she turns on little finger throughout the next book. I think we will have to see how her relationship with Harold harrying goes.

Yeah, some people tend to forget about his past.

And Tryion is also another good example: he fell in love with a common girl and married her and both of them paid dearly for it.

It's very interesting how those two foolish teenagers are now two of the most clever men in this story.

And both of them has been in this game for more than a decade now.

Sansa is 13. she is still too young. but I think she is smart enough to be an excellent player, she just needs more experience.

And I agree that she will not become a master manipulator like him but not because she is not clever enough but because she is not ruthless and cold hearted like him.

 

 

 

 

[Wrl6199]

3 hours ago, winter daughter said:

Yeah, some people tend to forget about his past.

And Tryion is also another good example: he fell in love with a common girl and married her and both of them paid dearly for it.

It's very interesting how those two foolish teenagers are now two of the most clever men in this story.

And both of them has been in this game for more than a decade now.

Sansa is 13. she is still too young. but I think she is smart enough to be an excellent player, she just needs more experience.

And I agree that she will not become a master manipulator like him but not because she is not clever enough but because she is not ruthless and cold hearted like him.

 

 

 

 

Yeah trillions back story is one of the saddest at least in terms of that. I mean his father had his guards fucking rape her in front of him and lied to his fact that they hired him. That is true too. They never were stupid but young. Little fingers arc as a child  seems more foolish and less tragic. Man i forget that she is 13. They all seem so much older. I mean most of the fan art drawn for salsa certainly doe sent look like a 13 year old. 

[Darksnider05]

18 minutes ago, Wrl6199 said:

Yeah trillions back story is one of the saddest at least in terms of that. I mean his father had his guards fucking rape her in front of him and lied to his fact that they hired him. That is true too. They never were stupid but young. Little fingers arc as a child  seems more foolish and less tragic. Man i forget that she is 13. They all seem so much older. I mean most of the fan art drawn for salsa certainly doe sent look like a 13 year old. 

Tyrion also raped her.