"For a thousand years or more..." What?

[kissdbyfire]

About Brienne taking Jaime to LSH... Yeah, can't wait to see how that plot is developed. But for what it's worth, Brienne will not let LSH have Jaime killed. She might take him to where LSH is, but I think her purpose is different. Perhaps she'll try to prove to LSH that Jaime is trying to redeem himself or something. But she won't let them kill him, even if she has to fight them. Her vow was to Catelyn, not LSH, and she knows they are not one and the same. 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Yeah, the time line is fubar.  And I think nothing is quite as simple as it seems. 

I've been wondering about House Words and Old families and the legend of the long night. I wonder often if the house words of some houses may relate to the Last hero's companions. And also geographical locations of certain houses. 

I was thinking about the fact that most of the islands on the easterly side of Westeros were inhabited by Valyrians. And wondering about this idea of house Dayne originating from Tarth not Dorne, and their supposedly Valyrian looks. 

[kissdbyfire]

On 19/12/2016 at 5:02 PM, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Yeah, the time line is fubar.  And I think nothing is quite as simple as it seems. 

I've been wondering about House Words and Old families and the legend of the long night. I wonder often if the house words of some houses may relate to the Last hero's companions. And also geographical locations of certain houses. 

I was thinking about the fact that most of the islands on the easterly side of Westeros were inhabited by Valyrians. And wondering about this idea of house Dayne originating from Tarth not Dorne, and their supposedly Valyrian looks. 

For some weird reason I only got this post's notification now!

I often think about house words and sigils. I had an old thread about it, actually... My speculation was that the skinchanging gift/ability was passed on to the FM by the CotF, either through magic proper or interbreeding; and that not all FM received it and the sigils were the "clues". 

And intersting again with the Valyrians being on the eastern side, where Tarth is! So many questions... 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

@kissdbyfire 

internet is weird. It does weird things.

Yes!! I too have wondered about that. Any chance you could dig that thread up? I'd love to read it.

Yeah just the way on a thread in the World section   which highlighted to me how if you look down that eastern coast line of Westeros you have a smattering of Valyrian families.  From Claw Isle at the northern most of the "channel" islands, down to Dragonstone & Driftmark. Then the next island we come to is Tarth.  And on the east coast of Tarth we have a historic house which shares many linguistic and thematic similarities with House Dayne. A house who have long been suspected as "proto Valyrian". I also found it interesting that the Dayne castle is also on an Island. 

 

 

[kissdbyfire]

@The Weirwoods Eyes, I have tried digging it up several times and came up with nothing.

If I ever find it, I'll link it to you. 

Yes, that's very intersting with the Valyrians so near Tarth, and I noticed just the other day that the Starfall in on a river island! 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

So last night I was watching a movie, and was reminded that the Vikings are said to have used Sunstones for navigation and that this is how they managed to get to North America.

So with that in mind: 

You will recall I mused earlier that Dawn may have a Sunstone in its hilt, as a compliment to the sword Nightfall having a Moonstone. Or should I say that Nightfall has a Moonstone as a compliment to Dawn; as I do believe Dawn is the older sword.  

And then the wording of Jon's description of The Sword of the Morning constellation rather suggests that there is indeed a gem of some sort in its hilt. He says Diamond. But the mineral which is widely believed to be the Sunstone talked of in so many Saga's is clear; like a diamond. So This to me adds weight to the idea of a Sunstone in its hilt.

Now back to the idea of Dayne's as proto Valyrians, and the islands of the east coast of southern Westeros as being occupied by Valyrians. Including Tarth and the Dayne's being the Morne's of Tarth originally.  Well if the Vikings used a Sunstone to navigate to North America, might the proto Valyrians have used a Sunstone to navigate to Westeros? 

And then set that stone in the hilt of a sword.

[PrettyPig]

20 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

You will recall I mused earlier that Dawn may have a Sunstone in its hilt, as a compliment to the sword Nightfall having a Moonstone. Or should I say that Nightfall has a Moonstone as a compliment to Dawn; as I do believe Dawn is the older sword.  

And then the wording of Jon's description of The Sword of the Morning constellation rather suggests that there is indeed a gem of some sort in its hilt. He says Diamond. But the mineral which is widely believed to be the Sunstone talked of in so many Saga's is clear; like a diamond. So This to me adds weight to the idea of a Sunstone in its hilt.

This is very interesting, and ironically it may be supported by some other unconventional data.

My long-term side project (see my sig) has been to find influences for ASOIAF within old Marvel Comics plot arcs, something that GRRM was very heavily invested in during his youth.   I look specifically at the years that he was actively reading and contributing to fanzines, so 1960-1975 or so.    

There is a character from that era that I have correlated to the proto-Valyrians & the Daynes - won't go into extensive detail here, but in a nutshell this guy followed a meteorite that fell from the sky thousands of years ago.    He came into possession of a fragment of said meteorite  - this fragment is one of several, and they are known as Bloodstones.   Each is part of a master stone known as the Bloodgem.       (Another fun fact:   another offshoot of the Bloodgem/sibling to the Bloodstone is the Star of Capistan.  The Star is " a power gem, the largest ruby ever known in any dimension. It is sentient and contains immense power for good or evil, but it cannot work without a human host to speak for and protect it."   Sound familiar?)

Anyway, without getting too far into the weeds, suffice it to say that this comic character - who looks ridiculously Valyrian, I might add - has been in possession of this bloodstone for thousands of years (he's immortal, this being a comic and all), and is more or less its guardian.    Eventually he does die, and the stone is passed to his daughter in current day, who also looks ridiculously Valyrian.

This dovetails into a separate Marvel arc about the Black Knight, whose ASOIAF counterpart is without question Arthur Dayne - special sword forged from a meteorite, passed down to only the worthy members of the family, yadda yadda.      Point being, if GRRM has blended these two arcs from his beloved Marvel comics and created a single ASOIAF plot from it, then it seems likely to me that the Daynes - if proto-Valyrians or whatever the common ancestry is thought to be - may indeed be in possession of some sort of special stone, and that stone could certainly be embedded in the hilt of Dawn. 

 

It sounds crazy, I know - I said it was unconventional - but it makes more sense when you see all the Marvel stuff tied together.

 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

@PrettyPig

No, it really doesn't sound crazy at all. It sounds like the foundations of a damn fine theory! And I would love to read your research, do you have a link? are you blogging it? 

I think you have given very pertinent and exciting insight here. 

I just wrote another post on a thread in the world sub section of the forum. on a thread about Valyrians in Westeros in the same vein as this one as I felt the information and ideas were relevant there also. I will link it for you now. 

 

[The Fattest Leech]

27 minutes ago, PrettyPig said:

This is very interesting, and ironically it may be supported by some other unconventional data.

My long-term side project (see my sig) has been to find influences for ASOIAF within old Marvel Comics plot arcs, something that GRRM was very heavily invested in during his youth.   I look specifically at the years that he was actively reading and contributing to fanzines, so 1960-1975 or so.    

There is a character from that era that I have correlated to the proto-Valyrians & the Daynes - won't go into extensive detail here, but in a nutshell this guy followed a meteorite that fell from the sky thousands of years ago.    He came into possession of a fragment of said meteorite  - this fragment is one of several, and they are known as Bloodstones.   Each is part of a master stone known as the Bloodgem.       (Another fun fact:   another offshoot of the Bloodgem/sibling to the Bloodstone is the Star of Capistan.  The Star is " a power gem, the largest ruby ever known in any dimension. It is sentient and contains immense power for good or evil, but it cannot work without a human host to speak for and protect it."   Sound familiar?)

Anyway, without getting too far into the weeds, suffice it to say that this comic character - who looks ridiculously Valyrian, I might add - has been in possession of this bloodstone for thousands of years (he's immortal, this being a comic and all), and is more or less its guardian.    Eventually he does die, and the stone is passed to his daughter in current day, who also looks ridiculously Valyrian.

This dovetails into a separate Marvel arc about the Black Knight, whose ASOIAF counterpart is without question Arthur Dayne - special sword forged from a meteorite, passed down to only the worthy members of the family, yadda yadda.      Point being, if GRRM has blended these two arcs from his beloved Marvel comics and created a single ASOIAF plot from it, then it seems likely to me that the Daynes - if proto-Valyrians or whatever the common ancestry is thought to be - may indeed be in possession of some sort of special stone, and that stone could certainly be embedded in the hilt of Dawn. 

 

It sounds crazy, I know - I said it was unconventional - but it makes more sense when you see all the Marvel stuff tied together.

 

You had me hooked at Marvel.

George has gone on and on about how Stan Lee was such an inspiration for him, and I think he even wrote Stan Lee fan letters as a kid??? It is pretty clear that George uses real world history, mythology from multiple sources and even fairytales. This doesn't sound crazy at all. This sounds awesome. I need to check this out.

ADDING: I am checking out your link now and I see you have the Martin letter in there.

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

18 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

You had me hooked at Marvel.

George has gone on and on about how Stan Lee was such an inspiration for him, and I think he even wrote Stan Lee fan letters as a kid??? It is pretty clear that George uses real world history, mythology from multiple sources and even fairytales. This doesn't sound crazy at all. This sounds awesome. I need to check this out.

ADDING: I am checking out your link now and I see you have the Martin letter in there.

https://m.imgur.com/a/WckGf#dkCMAjg

[The Fattest Leech]

1 minute ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

https://m.imgur.com/a/WckGf#dkCMAjg

A sublime, sparkling script

GRRM was a precocious little fella!

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

10 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

A sublime, sparkling script

GRRM was a precocious little fella!

I love the descriptions he uses cinsidering it is just a letter. I love even more that, even so long ago, wanted perfect character timeline/locations to be accurate and evidenced.

I love that he wrote that letter. It's so fun!

ETA: Sorry for the slight derail, I'll step out now. 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Oh I see the link is in your signature! That'll teach me to try n read and post whilst cooking dinner. Thanks I'm off to dive right into your stuff now.  

[The Fattest Leech]

2 minutes ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

I love the descriptions he uses cinsidering it is just a letter. I love even more that, even so long ago, wanted perfect character timeline/locations to be accurate and evidenced.

I love that he wrote that letter. It's so fun!

I was laughing the whole time reading it. Thanks for sharing. I had seen the other letter before, but not this one. His use of the word "chap" just cracks me up. And yeah, his acumen and desire for intense detail even back then is oh so telling.

And I am also stepping out of the derailed convo. Sorry

[PrettyPig]

3 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

No, it really doesn't sound crazy at all. It sounds like the foundations of a damn fine theory! And I would love to read your research, do you have a link? are you blogging it? 

 

3 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

George has gone on and on about how Stan Lee was such an inspiration for him, and I think he even wrote Stan Lee fan letters as a kid??? It is pretty clear that George uses real world history, mythology from multiple sources and even fairytales. This doesn't sound crazy at all.

 Thanks!   Art being rooted in the artist's reality, I opted to explore the thing that was nearest and dearest to his heart for so long, and that was action comics.   It only takes a few forays into characters and plot arcs of that era to realize the HUGE influence they had on the series.  In some cases, "influence" might even be too mild a term.  :/

It has been a fun project and I'm not even halfway through - much more to come.  Even so, I enjoy being able to back up other ideas with comic stuff  - when someone proposes a theory that jives with the Marvel parallels I've ferreted out, I feel like it's confirmation that we're all on the right track. 

 

[kissdbyfire]

@The Weirwoods Eyes, very intersting stuff with the sunstones! 

@PrettyPig, love your post, also super interesting. Can't wait to read your analyses and comparisons!

@OtherFromAnotherMother, tks for sharing that gem!

 

[ravenous reader]

6 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

So last night I was watching a movie, and was reminded that the Vikings are said to have used Sunstones for navigation and that this is how they managed to get to North America.

So with that in mind: 

You will recall I mused earlier that Dawn may have a Sunstone in its hilt, as a compliment to the sword Nightfall having a Moonstone. Or should I say that Nightfall has a Moonstone as a compliment to Dawn; as I do believe Dawn is the older sword.  

And then the wording of Jon's description of The Sword of the Morning constellation rather suggests that there is indeed a gem of some sort in its hilt. He says Diamond. But the mineral which is widely believed to be the Sunstone talked of in so many Saga's is clear; like a diamond. So This to me adds weight to the idea of a Sunstone in its hilt.

Now back to the idea of Dayne's as proto Valyrians, and the islands of the east coast of southern Westeros as being occupied by Valyrians. Including Tarth and the Dayne's being the Morne's of Tarth originally.  Well if the Vikings used a Sunstone to navigate to North America, might the proto Valyrians have used a Sunstone to navigate to Westeros? 

And then set that stone in the hilt of a sword.

Enjoyable post!

5 hours ago, PrettyPig said:

This is very interesting, and ironically it may be supported by some other unconventional data.

My long-term side project (see my sig) has been to find influences for ASOIAF within old Marvel Comics plot arcs, something that GRRM was very heavily invested in during his youth.   I look specifically at the years that he was actively reading and contributing to fanzines, so 1960-1975 or so.    

There is a character from that era that I have correlated to the proto-Valyrians & the Daynes - won't go into extensive detail here, but in a nutshell this guy followed a meteorite that fell from the sky thousands of years ago.    He came into possession of a fragment of said meteorite  - this fragment is one of several, and they are known as Bloodstones.   Each is part of a master stone known as the Bloodgem.       (Another fun fact:   another offshoot of the Bloodgem/sibling to the Bloodstone is the Star of Capistan.  The Star is " a power gem, the largest ruby ever known in any dimension. It is sentient and contains immense power for good or evil, but it cannot work without a human host to speak for and protect it."   Sound familiar?)

Anyway, without getting too far into the weeds, suffice it to say that this comic character - who looks ridiculously Valyrian, I might add - has been in possession of this bloodstone for thousands of years (he's immortal, this being a comic and all), and is more or less its guardian.    Eventually he does die, and the stone is passed to his daughter in current day, who also looks ridiculously Valyrian.

This dovetails into a separate Marvel arc about the Black Knight, whose ASOIAF counterpart is without question Arthur Dayne - special sword forged from a meteorite, passed down to only the worthy members of the family, yadda yadda.      Point being, if GRRM has blended these two arcs from his beloved Marvel comics and created a single ASOIAF plot from it, then it seems likely to me that the Daynes - if proto-Valyrians or whatever the common ancestry is thought to be - may indeed be in possession of some sort of special stone, and that stone could certainly be embedded in the hilt of Dawn. 

 

It sounds crazy, I know - I said it was unconventional - but it makes more sense when you see all the Marvel stuff tied together.

 

I love these connections you're making!  There's an awful lot of ruby symbolism in ASOIAF as well.  Remember at the Quiet Isle they are 'waiting for the seventh...'  Do you think the 'sunstone' as mentioned above by @The Weirwoods Eyes might actually be a ruby, instead of a clear stone, considering the dawn is usually associated with a red light and rubies are traditionally considered to be the sun stone, representing the alchemical apotheosis (the union of opposites or coincidentia oppositorum), the elixir of immortality or holy grail? 

For example, when I was researching the poem 'To My Coy Mistress' by Andrew Marvell for my poetry thread in which there's a line about gathering rubies at the Ganges, which reminded me of the monks on the Quiet Isle fielding the 'gifts' regurgitated by the river, as well as Rhaegar falling at the Trident, I came across this excerpt from a scholarly article in which the ruby symbolism, particularly the connection to a savior, is briefly outlined.

P.S.  @LmL Have you seen these fascinating posts, in light of your interests?

[LmL]

9 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

Enjoyable post!

I love these connections you're making!  There's an awful lot of ruby symbolism in ASOIAF as well.  Remember at the Quiet Isle they are 'waiting for the seventh...'  Do you think the 'sunstone' as mentioned above by @The Weirwoods Eyes might actually be a ruby, instead of a clear stone, considering the dawn is usually associated with a red light and rubies are traditionally considered to be the sun stone, representing the alchemical apotheosis (the union of opposites or coincidentia oppositorum), the elixir of immortality or holy grail? 

For example, when I was researching the poem 'To My Coy Mistress' by Andrew Marvell for my poetry thread in which there's a line about gathering rubies at the Ganges, which reminded me of the monks on the Quiet Isle fielding the 'gifts' regurgitated by the river, as well as Rhaegar falling at the Trident, I came across this excerpt from a scholarly article in which the ruby symbolism, particularly the connection to a savior, is briefly outlined.

P.S.  @LmL Have you seen these fascinating posts, in light of your interests?

Yes, I have read most of @Pretty Pig's Marvel research and I am quite convinced. It's some of themes extensive ASOIAF parallels in existence, rivaling Norse myth and horned god folklore. The bloodstone gem / meteor thing in particular is pretty amazing, because I worked around to the same conclusion - the moon meteors were to be seen as 'bloodstones' - without knowing anything about this Marvel story. Of course Marvel ideas don't exist in a vacuum, but rather (like all good fantasy and sic-fi) borrow from the classic ideas and archetypes. 

As for the sunstone stuff, no that's new to me although I am familiar with @The Weirwoods Eyes's great analysis.  That's all really interesting... if Dawn has a "sun-stone" in it, I suspect it would be a dark sun stone, which would be a bloodstone. They drank the fire of the sun, after all. RR this gets back to the conversation we are having about making a sword from two different elements or 2 broken swords of opposite nature. Very cool, thanks for tagging me. 

[ravenous reader]

25 minutes ago, LmL said:

Yes, I have read most of @Pretty Pig's Marvel research and I am quite convinced. It's some of themes extensive ASOIAF parallels in existence, rivaling Norse myth and horned god folklore. The bloodstone gem / meteor thing in particular is pretty amazing, because I worked around to the same conclusion - the moon meteors were to be seen as 'bloodstones' - without knowing anything about this Marvel story. Of course Marvel ideas don't exist in a vacuum, but rather (like all good fantasy and sic-fi) borrow from the classic ideas and archetypes. 

As for the sunstone stuff, no that's new to me although I am familiar with @The Weirwoods Eyes's great analysis.  That's all really interesting... if Dawn has a "sun-stone" in it, I suspect it would be a dark sun stone, which would be a bloodstone. They drank the fire of the sun, after all. RR this gets back to the conversation we are having about making a sword from two different elements or 2 broken swords of opposite nature. Very cool, thanks for tagging me. 

The other gem associated with the sun referenced in that article I linked is the 'carbuncle' or garnet, which is very interesting considering that Jon's wolf Ghost has eyes like burning suns or crying weirwoods that have been compared to both gems, garnets and rubies, at various times.  What's more, there are currently two garnets procured at Mole's Town residing in the pale stone pommel of Long Claw.

If you're up for any more of my puns, I had this thought, based on one of yours.  It occurred to me that red is both the color of 'mourning' (e.g. the red tears of the weirwood) -- blood --  as well as the color of 'morning' -- fire.  

Quote

A Feast for Crows - Jaime I

None of the devout paid Jaime any mind. They made a circuit of the sept, worshiping at each of the seven altars to honor the seven aspects of the deity. To each god they made sacrifice, to each they sang a hymn. Sweet and solemn rose their voices. Jaime closed his eyes to listen, but opened them again when he began to sway. I am more weary than I knew.

It had been years since his last vigil. And I was younger then, a boy of fifteen years. He had worn no armor then, only a plain white tunic. The sept where he'd spent the night was not a third as large as any of the Great Sept's seven transepts. Jaime had laid his sword across the Warrior's knees, piled his armor at his feet, and knelt upon the rough stone floor before the altar. When dawn came his knees were raw and bloody. "All knights must bleed, Jaime," Ser Arthur Dayne had said, when he saw. "Blood is the seal of our devotion." With dawn he tapped him on the shoulder; the pale blade was so sharp that even that light touch cut through Jaime's tunic, so he bled anew. He never felt it. A boy knelt; a knight rose. The Young Lion, not the Kingslayer.

But that was long ago, and the boy was dead.

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Eddard V

Arya bit her lip. "What will Bran do when he's of age?"

Ned knelt beside her. "He has years to find that answer, Arya. For now, it is enough to know that he will live." The night the bird had come from Winterfell, Eddard Stark had taken the girls to the castle godswood, an acre of elm and alder and black cottonwood overlooking the river. The heart tree there was a great oak, its ancient limbs overgrown with smokeberry vines; they knelt before it to offer their thanksgiving, as if it had been a weirwood. Sansa drifted to sleep as the moon rose, Arya several hours later, curling up in the grass under Ned's cloak. All through the dark hours he kept his vigil alone. When dawn broke over the city, the dark red blooms of dragon's breath surrounded the girls where they lay. "I dreamed of Bran," Sansa had whispered to him. "I saw him smiling."

"He was going to be a knight," Arya was saying now. "A knight of the Kingsguard. Can he still be a knight?"

 

[Curled Finger]

I can't remember the last time I stayed in a topic and read every single word of every single post.   I'm so angry I didn't take the time with this when the topic began.   Most excellent conversation from all angles.   Our beloved swords are brought in and I've had the pleasure of reading @The Weirwoods Eyes ideas about Nightfall and Dawn before.   It's a brilliant piece of research and connection that got me to make my own swords timeline.   I can't confirm the idea but following Dalton Greyjoy around on his brief adventures showed that Tarth is not only plausible but a likely place for pirates to raid and be raided.  As stated in the original topic post, time is a slippery thing in ASOIAF.  Brightroar is said to have been acquired in the century before the Doom and lost in the century following the Doom.   Dalton's career lasted less than a decade so placing Nightfall was a little bit easier to plot than Brightroar.  It's downright suspicious the few descriptions we actually have of the VS Swords.  Nightfall is a long sword with this moonstone pommel.   Red Rain is distinctive for its coloring though we get no clue what is colored.  Ice was a smoky grey greatsword.   Lady Forlorn is a smoky grey longsword.   Orphan-Maker has a black blade.   And so on.  We have next to nothing on any of the swords beyond Oathkeeper and Widow's Wail.  While trying to dig up clues on Dawn the best I could come up with is that Dawn is at least 2000 years old though thought to be much older.  Dawn is only thought to be made from the heart of a meteor.  Starfall is allegedly made of meteor material too.   I'm trying to apply this to Morne and failing miserably.   I think the point I'm trying to make is that in my quest for facts I ran into more supposition, legend and conjecture than fact for every single sword.   

I think it's inevitable that there will be some sort of re-enactment of The Last Hero's quest.  I've been working for years trying to find the missing swords and identify those hero companions.   Further, I've become convinced that the original heroes were from specific families who had some part in the pact between the 1st Men and COTF.  (Not my idea at all, but I have become convinced that there is too much coincidence between the original families who had VS Swords and the fact that there are still exactly 12 swords in Westeros.)   After all this time I have decided to be certain about 4 heroes.   I have settled on Bran for The Last Hero and I have been struggling with Jamie seriously for the past 6 months.   A lot of my confirmation with myself is what makes narrative sense.   I simply can't see Jon or Dany not standing at the end, where TLH needs to be expendable even if he is the only one to survive.   Bran can live on in the Weirnet.   Jon and Dany cannot.  Honestly, I've come to love this Jamie character and it's hard for me to consign him to a brutal death fighting Others, but I am leaning to the necessity for his arc to end this way.   For his family and his honor.   Maybe even for Brienne, who completely believes in him.   

It's been a really enjoyable conversation to read and I hope it's not over yet as there is so much to this.