How Tyrion Takes Casterly Rock

[devilish]

On 09/01/2017 at 7:52 PM, ed Lannister said:

it was under the leadership of tywin's father Tytos that defiance,truculency and lords being belligerent was rampant in westerlands and it was not necessarily directly to Tywin but rather to House Lannister as a whole as a challenge to their rule due to weakness  of tytos leadership.

The Same lord Reyne and Tarbeck did not have the guts to pull most of what they did during their defiance when Tywin's Grandfather Gerold reigned. Like Cat pointed to Robb only Strength is what keeps certain Houses across westeros in their place in the pecking order and the fealty offered to the leading houses for the most part is not given out of the love but due to the houses being militarily subdued.

Tywin's line comes from a branch that was not earmarked to inherit the rule of the west and it could also be that that mantle could perhaps fall to the numerous able cousins the lannister house still has.

I  am of the opinion Tyrion is already estranged to his immediate family and will find solace perhaps in serving Danny/Aegon in  some capacity in the small council if they manage to get their way.

 

 

We know very little about Gerold Lannister. I presume he was

a- the rightful heir
b- not someone to mess with

Same thing about Tyrion whose Tywin's son and who will be backed by dragons

As said I believe that Tyrion will gladly surrender his rights over CR if that means Jamie is allowed to live another day. A lion always pays his debts and all that. However if Tommen, Jamie & Myrcella die then rest assured he will go for the big prize and his bannermen should be happy of having somebody whose so brilliant and so close to the dragon queen as their liege lord. No one wants to be at the receiving end of Tywin's son whose backed by dragons. 

[Suzanna Stormborn]

3 hours ago, devilish said:

We know very little about Gerold Lannister. I presume he was

a- the rightful heir
b- not someone to mess with

Same thing about Tyrion whose Tywin's son and who will be backed by dragons

As said I believe that Tyrion will gladly surrender his rights over CR if that means Jamie is allowed to live another day. A lion always pays his debts and all that. However if Tommen, Jamie & Myrcella die then rest assured he will go for the big prize and his bannermen should be happy of having somebody whose so brilliant and so close to the dragon queen as their liege lord. No one wants to be at the receiving end of Tywin's son whose backed by dragons. 

Gerold could be in Essos somewhere, Tyrion and him could possibly meet-up/join forces before coming back to Westeros.  Some believe he is the corsair king (even though there is little to no evidence to back this up).  I would like to see them reunited, he was Tyrion's favorite uncle after all, and clearly preferred the life of an adventurer to hanging around Tywin in Westeros.

[The Snow Bear]

                                            - minor TWOAIF-Spoilers -

 

1. I still think that it isn't a bad bet to assume that Dany will come to Westeros from the West, as a certain lady in a lacquered mask told her to. If she does so, CR will be the first (big) castle to attack.

(This also would prolong meeting with FAegon, who seems to be concentrating his powers in the East)

Thus the taking of CR wouldn't be a meagre skirmish but an important plot point.

2. If Tyrion is with Dany then, it has to be him who gets the castle for her.

3. There are, as far as I can see, three ways Tyrion could do that.

1. claiming his seat as Tywins rightful heir,
2. trickery
3. diplomacy.

Brute force (even powered by dragon), is neither Tyrions mo nor does it seem to be suitable for the rock. The rock is a mountain it wouldn't melt like Harrenhall and a siege might take much more time than Dany has. Also I don't think that (dragon-) mining is an actual possibility.  There have to be sentries on the seaside to look out for attacking fleets or climbers and a dragon is nothing you could easily hide. Furthermore the dragon minined tunnel could faster become a trap for said dragon.

4. So back to the three ways (no pun intended).

1. IMO Tyrions claim as it is, isn't strong enough to get anyone in the Westerlands to kneel down just because of it. He's deemed a kings- and double kinslayer who assassinated the former lord of the rock. And even if all the KL-Lannisters die, there still are many and more Lannisters in and around CR. But as we know from king Bob a claim is always as strong as your force is. If Robert could claim the throne for being the second cousin of a second cousin Tyrion can claim the rock and ignore the mishaps with Tywyn and Joff
2. &  3.  But to get CR he'll have to use all Dany's force, trickery and diplomacy. Maybe we can construct a plot out of the stories of Lann the Clever and Blood & Cheese of TWOIAF combined with Kat at the Twins, Jamie in Riverrun, Dany handling the wards in Mereen and experience as Tyrions Master of drains.

5. So this is my "How Tyrion wins the rock"-fanfic:

1. Dany's fleet lands somewhere in the Westerlands and quickly lays siege on CR. Dany needs a stronghold and base of operations. Also Tyrion knows all the lords of the Westerlands and is sure that there know way to win their allegiance without CR. But they know they can't hold the siege for long. The Dothraki aren't made for Sieges, Dany again has taken to many useless mouth to feed and as long as the siege goes they are an easy target for anyone wanting to attack them.
2. Tyrion rides to the gates of CR to negotiate with the castellan or current Lannister of CR (let's call him Lic (Lannister in charge)). But Lic isn't willing to negotiate. He calls Tyrion a monster an threatens to fight to the last man. When Tyrion aks wether this last man would include women and children, like Lics own, Lick face turns white and he threatens to do vile things to Tyrion.
3. Tyrion knows all the drains and secret ways in and out of CR. He chooses the most secret of them an sneaks into CR like Lann did. He has a small group of Bronnish soldiers with him. Those soldiers kidnap Lics wife and children. But unlike B&C they don't kill them but bring them to Dany, cause Dany doesn't condone harming the innocent.
4. Tyrion appears in Lics chambers. He tells him he's come without weapons and wants to restart the negotiations and that he has brought Lics family to a save place outside, leaving the threat hanging in the air.
5. Fearing for his family Lic gives CR to Tyrion an writes a letter to the Westerlands in which he proclaims that he has given CR back to Tywins rightful heir, who is as ruthless and cunning as his father was.
6. Tyrion uses the letter and his diplomatic abilities to get the whole Westerlands on Dany's side

[Lady Blizzardborn]

16 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Because he will almost certainly have dragons at his back, and there are plenty of signs pointing to the Lannisters undergoing a culling at a wed wedding 2.0. Even if that cull does not happen, there is a small pool of realistic candidates who could fulfill that roll -- characters introduced and fleshed out prior to ADWD. It would be lazy and bad writing to reward a non-insignificant lordship ( and plot point he's foreshadowed/referenced heavily) to someone we didn't know I see that pool as Daven, Martyn along with the Jaime, Cersei, Tommen, and Myrcella. I don't believe the latter 3 are long for the world, Martyn will likely end up at Darry and Daven/Jaime have learned to fight smarter, not harder. 

Damion Lannister is currently castellan and in a prime candidate to seize it, but castellans have not had a particularly good track record of retaining their castles when besieged or  confronted ( Ser Rodrik - WF, Cortney Penrose - SE, Brynden Tully - RR, Farring - SE, Rolland Storm - DS). 

I'm not talking about his taking CR. I'm talking about his claim being considered legitimate. And I'm also not talking about who gets it in the end. Most of the posts in this thread seem to go along the lines that Tyrion should automatically be considered the rightful heir to the Rock because X, and ignore everything else.

Of course he's going to take CR. That's never been a question. Whether he'll have it at the end is separate and depends in large part on whether he lives to the end.

[Victarion Chainbreaker]

21 hours ago, PCK said:

What if he floods the castle and drowns the army inside, like Tywin did to the Reynes & Tarbecks? 

Hurry up, only 3723 more buckets to go!

[Universal Sword Donor]

10 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

I'm not talking about his taking CR. I'm talking about his claim being considered legitimate. And I'm also not talking about who gets it in the end. Most of the posts in this thread seem to go along the lines that Tyrion should automatically be considered the rightful heir to the Rock because X, and ignore everything else.

Of course he's going to take CR. That's never been a question. Whether he'll have it at the end is separate and depends in large part on whether he lives to the end.

His claim is legitimate because he *is* a Lannister and being attainted means little and less if the people who issued it are dead and you've been pardoned by a sitting queen, let alone one with dragons who would likely give you nice scroll explaining both for services rendered. Most people are treating it that way because taking the castle makes his claim ipso facto legitimate. 

Why was Robert's claim legitimate? He won it by force of arms. Why was Aegon's claim legitimate? He had three dragons.

[The Snow Bear]

@Lady Blizzardborn

4 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

His claim is legitimate because he *is* a Lannister and being attainted means little and less if the people who issued it are dead and you've been pardoned by a sitting queen, let alone one with dragons who would likely give you nice scroll explaining both for services rendered. Most people are treating it that way because taking the castle makes his claim ipso facto legitimate. 

Why was Robert's claim legitimate? He won it by force of arms. Why was Aegon's claim legitimate? He had three dragons.

What he said.

 

To me one of the clearest messages of the books, especially the worldbook, is, that succession, legitimacy and heritance are extremely dependent on the powers that are. Even though the rues are principally rather defininte there still is a lot of space for "interpretation". When your lever is big enough you'll find a maester to build a case for you.

 

 

Tyrion has a case (inheritance is based on male preference primogeniture, he's the only male son of Tywin who hasn't sworn not to inherit).

Cersei has a case (Tyrion is an imp, a kingsslayer and a kinsslayer thus CR goes to her)

With the powers that are Tommens seems to be the valid case currently, his potential children would have one (Cersei still is a female dowager queen)

Jamie would have a case (If Barristan could have been relieved of is duties every KG can)

Kevan would have had a case (Cersei and her children could be regarded as Baratheon now)

Lancel would have a case (for being Kevans eldest son)

Martyn has a case (for not living in celibate)

Tyrek would have a case (defining Martyn as to young or mentally unstable after the murder of his twin)

Gerion would have a case (because Tyrek is either dead or also mentally unstable after his long incarceration)

Damon has a case (because Gerion is either dead or can't undoubtedly prove that he really is Gerion (making him FGerion))

Damion has a case (he is castellan and his father is old)

Daven has  a case (Damon is just a halfbrother of Joanna)

Anyone a new queen or king names has a case (all Lannisters are traitors)

 

[Suzanna Stormborn]

If you take the Kinslaying/Kingslaying out of the equation Casterly Rock would go to Tyrion 100%.  What we are really discussing is if Kingslaying erases inheritance on principle....

[aryagonnakill#2]

10 minutes ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

If you take the Kinslaying/Kingslaying out of the equation Casterly Rock would go to Tyrion 100%.  What we are really discussing is if Kingslaying erases inheritance on principle....

Sansa could refute the Kingslaying charge, the kinslaying would still stand tho.

[Lost Melnibonean]

9 minutes ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

Sansa could refute the Kingslaying charge, the kinslaying would still stand tho.

I think both will stand. The gods judged Tyrion guilty of kingslaying in trial by combat for all the world to see, and Tyrion has not, and probably will not deny slaying his father. 

I suspect Daenerys will not pardon him for such monstrous crimes (unless he becomes a dragonrider). Assuming Brown Ben becomes the dragonrider, I think the best Tyrion can hope for is an offer to take the black. But, I think Tyrion will betray Daenerys for all the gold of Casterly Rock--he will owe Brown Ben and the Second Sons an awful lot of gold and land, after all. Unfortunately for the twisted little demon monkey, Aegon will lose. 

[Suzanna Stormborn]

12 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

I think both will stand. The gods judged Tyrion guilty of kingslaying in trial by combat for all the world to see, and Tyrion has not, and probably will not deny slaying his father. 

I suspect Daenerys will not pardon him for such monstrous crimes (unless he becomes a dragonrider). Assuming Brown Ben becomes the dragonrider, I think the best Tyrion can hope for is an offer to take the black. But, I think Tyrion will betray Daenerys for all the gold of Casterly Rock--he will owe Brown Ben and the Second Sons an awful lot of gold and land, after all. Unfortunately for the twisted little demon monkey, Aegon will lose. 

But, I'm just not familiar enough with the laws, Does Kinsalying/kingslaying negate the right to inherit? Obviously if he took the black he would forfeit his claims.  But as it stands now, he is the heir correct?

[Lost Melnibonean]

58 minutes ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

But, I'm just not familiar enough with the laws, Does Kinsalying/kingslaying negate the right to inherit? Obviously if he took the black he would forfeit his claims.  But as it stands now, he is the heir correct?

My understanding is that the king sentenced Tyrion to die, and Tyrion escaped. If Tyrion ever returns to the authority of the Iron Throne, the new king or queen regnant would have to pardon Tyrion (or perhaps reduce his sentence to taking the black). Otherwise Tyrion is a dead man walking. That pretty much rules out inheritence. 

[Suzanna Stormborn]

25 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

My understanding is that the king sentenced Tyrion to die, and Tyrion escaped. If Tyrion ever returns to the authority of the Iron Throne, the new king or queen regnant would have to pardon Tyrion (or perhaps reduce his sentence to taking the black). Otherwise Tyrion is a dead man walking. That pretty much rules out inheritence. 

ah, yes that makes sense.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

14 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

His claim is legitimate because he *is* a Lannister and being attainted means little and less if the people who issued it are dead and you've been pardoned by a sitting queen, let alone one with dragons who would likely give you nice scroll explaining both for services rendered. Most people are treating it that way because taking the castle makes his claim ipso facto legitimate. 

Why was Robert's claim legitimate? He won it by force of arms. Why was Aegon's claim legitimate? He had three dragons.

Taking the castle doesn't make his claim legitimate. It gives him a new and separate claim.

Neither Robert nor Aegon had prior claims legitimized by their subsequent actions. Aegon showed up and took over. Robert fought without any thought of the crown until the Trident, and by the time he got to King's Landing the heirs ahead of him were dead or not there (and subsequently barred from inheriting, I mean you Viserys!). They reinforce possession being a significant factor in determining ownership, but not the retroactive legitimization of anything.

 

[Universal Sword Donor]

On 1/12/2017 at 2:14 PM, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Taking the castle doesn't make his claim legitimate. It gives him a new and separate claim.

Neither Robert nor Aegon had prior claims legitimized by their subsequent actions. Aegon showed up and took over. Robert fought without any thought of the crown until the Trident, and by the time he got to King's Landing the heirs ahead of him were dead or not there (and subsequently barred from inheriting, I mean you Viserys!). They reinforce possession being a significant factor in determining ownership, but not the retroactive legitimization of anything.

 

I mean, does it really matter if it's a "new" claim? He's only making because, in his mind, he has a legitimate claim, which he did before. To just about anyone, there is no gap between the old claim or new claim. In world I'd be incredulous if anyone referred to it that way or that thought crossed their mind.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

11 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

I mean, does it really matter if it's a "new" claim? He's only making because, in his mind, he has a legitimate claim, which he did before. To just about anyone, there is no gap between the old claim or new claim. In world I'd be incredulous if anyone referred to it that way or that thought crossed their mind.

In the story, probably not. But I like things to be clear as possible during the discussion by us non-characters. We have enough in the story that's unclear as it is. Though other characters would be less likely to dispute it if phrased as a new claim...because dragons.