Men's rights/issues thread- Grab 'em right by the willy

[Kalbear]

26 minutes ago, Jo498 said:

I know what a paternity test does. The point is that as far as I understand the legal situation it is not at all obvious that one can pressure the woman to reveal the biological father and it is hard to impossible for the legal father to get anyone else (e.g. the government) to pay child support if e.g. he divorces the wife and does not want to pay support for other men's children that are legally his. As far as I can see the situation is still quite messy in Germany. Admittedly, there are probably only about 1-2% (as opposed to some outrageous numbers mentioned sometimes) of children with misattributed legal fathers, so it is rare but by no means something made up by angry MRA but quite real. Whatever, the point was that among the dubious and spurious things raised by MRA this one is real and important and the current situation does not seem all that well for men. (Some rightly point out the flip side, that these are also often cases where the biological father was denied contact or even the mere knowledge that he fathered a child - it is not only about who pays the support.)

It sucks for the guys, but you're misunderstanding the point of the law - which is to have familial support for the child. 

It makes no sense to both decry the lack of father figures AND to decry the issue of the government actually wanting to give children father figures (even if they're not the bio dad). 

 

[Isalie]

I think that if the current climate in the world has taught us anything it is that we should emphasize cooperation over competition. 

Even though there's probably countless examples of PE being harmful, the ideal solution would be to have a PE with the goal of promoting physical activity etc rather than it being a place where the already strong athletes can shine at the expense of the rest. 

The thing about improving the situation for the 10% with the lowest grades is of course also that if they do better, they will enjoy school more and thus cause less disruptions, which in turn will allow the rest to have a better study climate. 

[Toth]

53 minutes ago, Theda Baratheon said:

I was really good at sports in school and I still got bullied constantly and all the worst people were in the top P.E group (same as me) I hated it and I haTed then and they hated me too because I was ...I don't even know?? I think back at my young self now and there was honestly nothing wrong with her at all except being a bit socially awkward and Ugly and a nerd but a couple years after leaving school dragons (game of Thrones and skyrim) were cool!?!?! WTF!! I was livid!!! Having been bullied for being Into that stuff all through school!! So I totally get you on shit schools and shit classmates and also my dad was an unsuccessful rugby player LOL so similar in that regard too except I'm a girl 

I know this is being off-topic, but I have to make an aside note to that: Your appearance and your interests have absolutely, 100% nothing to do with bullying. Looking for why they pick on you is pointless and self-defeating. As you have seen in my anecdote, whether I did well in sports or not was entirely irrelevant because I got the boot for both. For a time I also worried a lot about my nerdy ways and how I was perceived by people and tried to make myself as grey as possible in order to starve them of opportunities. Until I noticed that it doesn't make any difference. Because most of the people picking a fight with me were just as nerdy, they were just more at ease with it. In fact, the reason I was attacked so frequently was because of my former 'best friend' who fought a weird vendetta against me and in his hatred used up a considerable amount of time with nothing but slandering me, inciting the entire class. It was a personal conflict that made people join in for no specific reason. And the moment he dropped out of school after middle school, the climate changed drastically. I was still an outsider, but active bullying stopped immediately.

The finishing moment was talking with a new transfer student who witnessed exactly this break. He was pretty much the stereotype of the cool kid, being the outgoing lead gitarrist of his own rock band and actively working to make a living of that (the only crack in the picture was him playing the Warhammer Fantasy tabletop game in his free time, painting miniatures and all). And even he noted that the whole bullying thing had absolutely nothing to do with any personal trait of mine in a tone that suggested that he had assumed the norm to be an underlying flaw of the victim before. But I assure you, this is likely to be wrong in most cases. Grudges that spiral out of control with a lot of bystanders joining in and of course a school climate with a willfully blind administration that refuses to intervene decisively; that's what usually happens. Therefore there is no need for worry in any case, no need not to be true to yourself, only a need to get a better school...

[DunderMifflin]

Most of my pre high school p.e. classes were actually health/p.e.

Alternated weeks between classroom and gym. One week of health topics such as nutrition followed by a week of being in the gym doing physical activity.

Like almost everything else in the educational system it was great in theory but in application it would just be a week of jock sports coaches trying to awkwardly teach sexual education in a class followed by a week of them just throwing out a couple of basketballs and leaving us alone.

Some played ball some just sat and socialized or did homework for other classes.  My point is p.e. was treated like a break from the rest of the day rather than teaching very much.

[OldGimletEye]

2 hours ago, Mikael said:

I think that if the current climate in the world has taught us anything it is that we should emphasize cooperation over competition. 

Even though there's probably countless examples of PE being harmful, the ideal solution would be to have a PE with the goal of promoting physical activity etc rather than it being a place where the already strong athletes can shine at the expense of the rest. 

The thing about improving the situation for the 10% with the lowest grades is of course also that if they do better, they will enjoy school more and thus cause less disruptions, which in turn will allow the rest to have a better study climate. 

I've been somebody that was involved heavily in sports from the time I was young right through the college level.
I've also coached kids too. I've seen the bad sides and the good sides of sports culture, having been involved in it for a long time.
And there can be a very ugly side to it, no doubt about it,if it is not watched and managed properly. 
When I coached, I always judged "success" from how many kids came back. And that meant playing kids who might have been athletically weaker.

In PE class, and in team sports at the youth level, I strongly feel that the emphasis should be on having fun. And that is something that parents, teachers, and coaches have to be aware of. If not, the whole experience can turn ugly for many kids.

[Centrist Simon Steele]

On 3/13/2017 at 5:41 AM, HelenaExMachina said:

This seems sort of relevant to the discussion about individualised teaching: https://www.theguardian.com/education/2017/mar/13/teachers-neuromyth-learning-styles-scientists-neuroscience-education?CMP=fb_gu

 

I think it is relevant. Part of this stems from a lot of misconceptions about neuroscience research (such as the myth that some of us are left brain or right brain learners--this is false, and it is often gendered too). Many educators prescribe to these myths. "Boys are concrete thinkers at this age, while girls are..." So it can be generalized in negative ways too.

The United States education system is very objectivist in its approach to learning in that it believes knowledge is a thing to be dispensed into students which are things to be filled. So when we see individualized instruction gone wrong, as in the link you provide, it is because our frame of reference can't interpret new methods of informing the practice of teaching. I think the individualized movement of teaching comes from a couple of areas of educational research, such as constructivism--which asserts that learners are not vessels to be filled, but people who create meaning of their environments (which, if accurate, explains why traditional instruction of "here is the material you need to learn" is so ineffective). Often, I think we have all claimed we started really learning when we were interested, not when someone told us we needed to, which falls right in line with constructivist thinking, but the practice is complicated and often misinterpreted.

People begin to think things like "if constrictuvisism is the lens through which we teach, then does any one  reality exist?" Or "I must allow each individual student to find his/her own interests in learning." This is categorically untrue. Constructivism is tied to scaffolding and apprenticeship.

Where this helps in the gender debate is it does away with the stereotypes/myths that boys are better in certain subjects and girls are better in certain subjects. A constructivist informed classroom allows an educator to give proper guidance and structure to students, understands his/her students limits, so those students can work forward at the proper pace without falling in over his/her head. No assumptions of "well, boys are bad/good at writing" thus pigeon-holing them into specific areas of education.

I like that you pointed this out. I think it points to an inherent gender-bias within education that is difficult to break away from--because even as individualized as these methods are supposed to be, they become very much gendered. "Listening-style," for example, will become the go-to for certain groups of boys (rarely girls), etc.

[James Arryn]

Grew up in a big sports family (dad's side) and around pro athletes/organizations, and was a pretty high level athlete myself. I never saw too much of the collective downside, tbh. I've heard about it and don't doubt it's true, but I never was exposed to it much. But I did see a downside; in a world built around sports, I've seen competitiveness become so central to individuals that it fucks up their perspective/life. My father was a bit like that, and I was probably heading that way myself for a while...and I think he puts too much pressure on my younger sister.

But for most people it's a pretty positive part of their lives, IMO. 

Also, I think I missed something; what's the argument for a father not being allowed to run a paternity test for children he's responsible for? I can get why it could indicate a fucked up relationship, like a pre-nup, but what would the ethical/legal argument be?

 

[Jo498]

Fathers can do paternity tests and find out that they are not the bio-father. But if the woman will not tell (or doesn't know for sure) who other candidates for the father are, he cannot sue anyone for the support he actually paid. The legal situation is complicated, even messy and the few articles I browsed today did not really make everything clear for me (situation in Germany). There have been several changes in the law, the latest has it that there is a cap at two years of child support a cuckolded husband can sue for. But the articles revealed that there are politicians from the German Green Party who seriously claimed that the right of privacy implied that the woman should in no way be forced to reveal the sexual contacts that could be the biological father.

I am not claiming that there are or should be quick and easy legal solutions. But it is clearly a legit case of "men's rights" where men can get badly burned.

[James Arryn]

58 minutes ago, Jo498 said:

Fathers can do paternity tests and find out that they are not the bio-father. But if the woman will not tell (or doesn't know for sure) who other candidates for the father are, he cannot sue anyone for the support he actually paid. The legal situation is complicated, even messy and the few articles I browsed today did not really make everything clear for me (situation in Germany). There have been several changes in the law, the latest has it that there is a cap at two years of child support a cuckolded husband can sue for. But the articles revealed that there are politicians from the German Green Party who seriously claimed that the right of privacy implied that the woman should in no way be forced to reveal the sexual contacts that could be the biological father.

I am not claiming that there are or should be quick and easy legal solutions. But it is clearly a legit case of "men's rights" where men can get badly burned.

Ah, ok. Thanks for the explanation.

[Lily Valley]

10 hours ago, Toth said:

Daily phys-ed? Oh my god, I would have died in such a school. Similarly in that one Lily Valley is describing. I guess the specialization works for some, but the entire attitude of the school administration, the mentors and the parents seem to have quite a lot of influence on why the boys do better there. It sure sounds interesting and I can imagine further evaluation of such a system could net some useful conclusions.

But in the end, I believe giving everyone the ability to choose his school is important, because not every boy is the same. This might be my own bias, but again, I would have died in such a school, being the feeble and underweight asthmatic who got every shred of fun with sports bullied out of him by his failed professional footballer father. I'm the guy who associates competitiveness with 'ganging up on the weak' and instead values cooperation above everything else. It shouldn't surprise anyone that I always got along better with girls and was constantly at odds with boys...

That one would have been perfect for MY boy.  There are 3 others in the Catholic system that serve boys only.  One is a math and science based school that has a much different culture, think Harry Potter for science nerds, but they do boast a great Junior ROTC.  The other is a Jesuit school that produces a lot of our lawyers and politicians, it provides the best foreign language and a classical (Greek style) education based on Recitation / Logic / Rhetoric.  The third is a traditional African American school, it is 90+ % African American students, as such it is the least racially diverse of the 4 schools.  It supports a very diverse set of skills, is the largest of the 4 schools and has the highest number of male and African American teachers.  Many of our politicians and community leaders come out of this school.  I deal for families and students that want to reinforce culture and community.  There are 7 girls schools in the system with similar breakdowns, they are very different from one another.   All the have been very successful for generations.  They hold open houses every year to give potential incoming classes a chance to experience the culture of each school.  The amount of alumni involvement is due to their success and the TIME they have been in place.

Thing is, a successful model for educating both boys and girls is already in place.  You can skip the Catholic part, the education model is sound.  It has been helping kids achieve for generations and giving them a community in adolescence when they really need it.  The system isn't perfect, my son went to the only Co-ed school because there is literally not enough room in the 4 all-boy schools to take all comers.  The co-ed school was a less than ideal fit for him and doesn't have the same history of family / student support.  There's a story there, but this isn't the place.  

[Kalbear]

21 hours ago, Lily Valley said:

Kal, I put some of this down to men being too damn picky in person.  By the time I arrange an OKC date, I've already decided I wanna bone unless they are stone crazy in person.  I've been on a couple where the man refused to admit he was my date (???????), and several where I was told "less cock!  More coquette!" and chastised because I was too forward,   We can't win this one.  Apparently I need to look like an airbrushed version of (pick your celeb) for this to be a real thing.  Yet men keep complaining.

Ultimately women have to live up to whatever fantasy that the men have, and if they don't they're doing it wrong. And that fantasy changes all the time, from man to man and day to day. 

Men have to not be ax murderers or something. 

But yes, the American ideal of both slut-shaming women and then complaining that women are too picky is especially awesomely stupid. 

[James Arryn]

I think anyone saying 'less cock, more coquette' ought to be punched on principle. Not for being 'too picky' about women, but rather for talking like a git.

[Isalie]

9 hours ago, James Arryn said:

Grew up in a big sports family (dad's side) and around pro athletes/organizations, and was a pretty high level athlete myself. I never saw too much of the collective downside, tbh. I've heard about it and don't doubt it's true, but I never was exposed to it much. But I did see a downside; in a world built around sports, I've seen competitiveness become so central to individuals that it fucks up their perspective/life. My father was a bit like that, and I was probably heading that way myself for a while...and I think he puts too much pressure on my younger sister.

But for most people it's a pretty positive part of their lives, IMO. 

Also, I think I missed something; what's the argument for a father not being allowed to run a paternity test for children he's responsible for? I can get why it could indicate a fucked up relationship, like a pre-nup, but what would the ethical/legal argument be?

 

I read somewhere that playing competetive sports did not somehow relieve the player of its urge to compete but rather make him or her more competetive, selfish, willing to cheat and so on. So participating in sports often promote the opposite of what we think of as sportsmanlike. 

10 hours ago, OldGimletEye said:

I've been somebody that was involved heavily in sports from the time I was young right through the college level.
I've also coached kids too. I've seen the bad sides and the good sides of sports culture, having been involved in it for a long time.
And there can be a very ugly side to it, no doubt about it,if it is not watched and managed properly. 
When I coached, I always judged "success" from how many kids came back. And that meant playing kids who might have been athletically weaker.

In PE class, and in team sports at the youth level, I strongly feel that the emphasis should be on having fun. And that is something that parents, teachers, and coaches have to be aware of. If not, the whole experience can turn ugly for many kids.

I coach too. For me, the goal has to be to have fun, within the context of the game, so the kids who participate should do their best and focus on what we are doing. That said, I very much agree that everyone should play the same amount etc. I think it should be like that until they are adults, but I know a lot of people want their kids to treat their sport like a part time job.

[DunderMifflin]

18 minutes ago, Mikael said:

I read somewhere that playing competetive sports did not somehow relieve the player of its urge to compete but rather make him or her more competetive, selfish, willing to cheat and so on. So participating in sports often promote the opposite of what we think of as sportsmanlike. 

There's evidence that this effect is very beneficial for girls in that they are more likely to graduate, less likely to have teen pregancy, less likely to be raped and a few other things I can't remember right now. If you're feeling like youre about to be victimized or peer pressured into something it's not a time to play fair. Being selfish and cheating has value in some situations.

 

[baxus]

16 hours ago, Jo498 said:

I know what a paternity test does. The point is that as far as I understand the legal situation it is not at all obvious that one can pressure the woman to reveal the biological father and it is hard to impossible for the legal father to get anyone else (e.g. the government) to pay child support if e.g. he divorces the wife and does not want to pay support for other men's children that are legally his. As far as I can see the situation is still quite messy in Germany. Admittedly, there are probably only about 1-2% (as opposed to some outrageous numbers mentioned sometimes) of children with misattributed legal fathers, so it is rare but by no means something made up by angry MRA but quite real. Whatever, the point was that among the dubious and spurious things raised by MRA this one is real and important and the current situation does not seem all that well for men. (Some rightly point out the flip side, that these are also often cases where the biological father was denied contact or even the mere knowledge that he fathered a child - it is not only about who pays the support.)

Just to be clear, I believe very firmly that conceiving a child does not make one a father. Father is the person who raises the kid (together with mother, of course) and is there for the kid.

If sometime in the future I divorce my wife and find out that our hypothetical children are not my biological children, I'd fight with all my power to keep custody over them or at least stay in their lives, and would pay child support.

Still, that knowledge would cause a huge turn in the way I handled any further contact with my (ex)wife and I would use it as much as possible in the divorce process.

16 hours ago, Jo498 said:

The problem with Phys Ed is that often they focus too much on team sports and one has to concede that the environment can be even more darwinist than the classroom in other subjects.

Ideally, Phys Ed should somehow especially help the asthmatic asthenic or overweight guy to improve his condition and gain confidence. While not always easy, this is possible in many cases.

I agree. P. E. should first and foremost help kids begin to love sports and physical activity in general and help improve their motor skills, not try to create a world class athlete.

There is no reason why P.E. would make asthmatic kids feel inadequate, other than teacher not wanting to put in the effort.

16 hours ago, Kalbear said:

It sucks for the guys, but you're misunderstanding the point of the law - which is to have familial support for the child. 

It makes no sense to both decry the lack of father figures AND to decry the issue of the government actually wanting to give children father figures (even if they're not the bio dad). 

If someone does not want to father the child and has no biological obligation to do so, then no court or government can force him to do it.

Lack of father figures is a result of traditional families collapsing due to various reasons, including but not limited to marital infidelity. Not only does forcing a husband who's been cheated on to raise his wife's child with another man make no sense, it's insane.

12 hours ago, James Arryn said:

But for most people it's a pretty positive part of their lives, IMO. 

For me, sports have been an extremely positive part of my life. I have never been some great athlete, have never competed but I have tried and trained various sports and enjoyed most of them and I still play them whenever I get the chance. I've met some great people through sports, traveled through Europe, learnt how to be a part of the team etc. I wouldn't change it for anything.

[Jo498]

As the thread is almost "full" according to the rules, maybe the sports/education part could be separated from the contentious "men's rights/issues" stuff in a new thread, if anyone is still interested.

[Kalbear]

6 hours ago, baxus said:

If someone does not want to father the child and has no biological obligation to do so, then no court or government can force him to do it.

The government and law disagree.

6 hours ago, baxus said:

Lack of father figures is a result of traditional families collapsing due to various reasons, including but not limited to marital infidelity. Not only does forcing a husband who's been cheated on to raise his wife's child with another man make no sense, it's insane.

It's not really, especially for the child, especially if the child has grown up thinking that that person is their father.

 

[White Walker Texas Ranger]

23 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

The government and law disagree.

 

They can force him to pay child support, but they can't force him to be a father, at least according Baxus' definition that he gave above

 

6 hours ago, baxus said:

Just to be clear, I believe very firmly that conceiving a child does not make one a father. Father is the person who raises the kid (together with mother, of course) and is there for the kid.

 

[James Arryn]

10 hours ago, DunderMifflin said:

There's evidence that this effect is very beneficial for girls in that they are more likely to graduate, less likely to have teen pregancy, less likely to be raped and a few other things I can't remember right now. If you're feeling like youre about to be victimized or peer pressured into something it's not a time to play fair. Being selfish and cheating has value in some situations.

 

Sorry, less likely to be raped?

[DunderMifflin]

51 minutes ago, James Arryn said:

Sorry, less likely to be raped?

The book - "Women and Sport: From Liberation to Celebration" is what I'm going by. Pretty much a book about the history and current state womens roles in sports. Part of it makes a case for the benefits for girls involved in sports. The strongest evidence supports things like higher chance of using protection and talking with partners about sexual history and seeking out sexual health information. While lessening the chances being victim of sexual assault evidence isn't quite as strong it's there. 

Also the flip side of that is athletes of all genders are less likely to be sympathetic to rape and support more victim blaming stances than non athletes.