The Others: Why now?

[Colonel Green]

10 hours ago, RobbStarko said:

Ehh the birth of Jon Snow one strikes me as something too cliche The most likely reason in my opinion is the tragedy of summer hall most likely triggered it as it may have shown the others that the dragons were on there way back or something to that effect it also gives the wildlings more time to encounter the others and the others to build a huge army 

Why would the idea that the dragons were on their way back trigger it, when the Others did nothing in the 150 or so years where the Targaryens originally ruled the Seven Kingdoms on dragonback?

[The Commentator]

41 minutes ago, Damon_Tor said:

The idea that a baby that was kicking in it's mother's womb the day before could be "dead for weeks" and covered in maggots when he's born isn't credible. "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" seems to be the relevant quote, and the burden is unmet.

That was just Mirri being spiteful.  The simplest way to explain what happened and the most plausible:  Mmd killed the baby as soon as he was born.  

[Dorian Martell's son]

15 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

My own theory: they come on a cycle and it's just time again. Magic in the storyworld seems to be cyclical and whatever else the Others are, they are creatures of magic.

The last Long Night was 8,000 years ago, and it's possible that there was another such experience 8,000 years before that (of which we have no actual record, but vague bits and pieces accidentally mixed in with the history and legends of the most recent Long Night).

As to why 8,000 years in particular I don't know. It could be less than that since the history is fuzzy. They could come every 7,000 years, but there does appear to be a cycle. 

Exactly, and in the past, the children were more than capable of fighting them, with the whole weirnet, obsidian weapons and magic that defeats them. Each time since, with less weirwoods, less children and less magic, they are now a force to be reckoned with.

[John Suburbs]

14 hours ago, Colonel Green said:

The Tullys are a First Men house.  They have plenty of Andal blood, of course, but so do the Blackwoods, the Royces, and the Manderlys (and, presumably, the Rogerses), and the Starks have married into all those houses.

Why would the Others care about a sept being built at Winterfell?  They don't worship the Old Gods either.

It might not have anything to do with blood, but with faith or how the marriage was done. Cat and Ned were married in the sept at RR (Cat 1, GoT). If the earlier marriages took place in front of heart trees, that might have made all the difference -- something to do with weakening the Stark faith that helps power the wards protecting the wall.

Do we know who the Others pray to? I don't remember that being mentioned anywhere.

Anyway, it's just an idea. There's not much to support it.

 

[Ser Loras The Gay]

1 minute ago, John Suburbs said:

Do we know who the Others pray to?

Why would they pray to anyone? As far as we know they're not conscious. And just conscious beings can pray to whatever religion that is. And even so, how would they know that the Starks have built a sept in their own territory? They're also greenseers who can watch through the weirwoods?

 

[John Suburbs]

5 minutes ago, Ser Loras The Gay said:

Why would they pray to anyone? As far as we know they're not conscious. And just conscious beings can pray to whatever religion that is. And even so, how would they know that the Starks have built a sept in their own territory? They're also greenseers who can watch through the weirwoods?

 

What makes you think they're not conscious?

Quote

Prologue, GoT

The Other said something in a language that Will did not know, his voice was like the cracking of ice on a winter lake, and the words were mocking.

...

The watchers moved forward together, as if some signal had been given. Swords rose and fell, all in a deathly silence. It was cold butchery. The pale blades sliced through ringmail as if it were silk. Will closed his eyes. Far beneath him, he heard their voices and laughter sharp as icicles.

So obviously they can talk to each other, coordinate their movements and laugh with mocking derision. How on earth could this not be evidence of consciousness?

I think it's the wights you're thinking of.

They might not know anything about the sept or Catlyn or anything -- just that where once they were prevented from coming too far south, now they can.

Or, sure, they may have greenseers and mystics and mages, just like any other sentient race.

[Ser Loras The Gay]

48 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

The Other said something in a language that Will did not know, his voice was like the cracking of ice on a winter lake, and the words were mocking.

Maybe that was just his mind hearing sounds he interpreted as a new whole language. Or they're sentient and I'm just wrong about they being conscious.

[Slowpoke Martin]

Some Reasons that make no sense:

- The Other's return shouldn't have anything to do with the wildlings in general, opening graves or bringing them together. Everything the wildlings did was a result of the Others being active.

- A sept in Winterfell also seems like an incredibly retarded reason. Only the Children of the Forest would care about something like this and even then they would know that specific religion is bullshit, if the Others and the Children are truly enemies then the Others really would not give 2 shits about a sept. I mean really, they're doing all this because of a sept in Winterfell?? The shit GRRM would need to spin to make that even sound reasonable would be absurd.

- The dragons coming back. This makes no sense, the Others were active long before Dany's dragons were born, the Others also didn't come south after dragons died out 150years ago. Hell, for all we know dragons were around during the Long Night, dragons seem to get fucked by the strong weather Others thrive in.

[John Suburbs]

1 hour ago, Slowpoke Martin said:

Some Reasons that make no sense:

- The Other's return shouldn't have anything to do with the wildlings in general, opening graves or bringing them together. Everything the wildlings did was a result of the Others being active.

- A sept in Winterfell also seems like an incredibly retarded reason. Only the Children of the Forest would care about something like this and even then they would know that specific religion is bullshit, if the Others and the Children are truly enemies then the Others really would not give 2 shits about a sept. I mean really, they're doing all this because of a sept in Winterfell?? The shit GRRM would need to spin to make that even sound reasonable would be absurd.

- The dragons coming back. This makes no sense, the Others were active long before Dany's dragons were born, the Others also didn't come south after dragons died out 150years ago. Hell, for all we know dragons were around during the Long Night, dragons seem to get fucked by the strong weather Others thrive in.

I wouldn't be too sure about the first one. Mance was attempting to unite the wildlings in order to take down the Night's Watch. They started opening the graves to look for the Horn of Winter, which is supposed to bring down the wall. We don't know when the Others first became active, whether it was before or after the graves were opened.

On the second, it's true the Others don't care about a sept. But if the Stark's First Men lineage and worship of the old gods has anything to do with the wards that keep the Others at bay, and those wards are somehow weakened because the faith of the Andals has crept into the Stark line, then the Others would suddenly find it possible to go further south than they have in thousands of years -- even if they don't know the reason why. And I don't think it is at all clear whether the Others and the Children are enemies, allies or neutral toward each other.

I agree with the point about dragons. I believe Bran even mentions seeing dragons in the Shadowlands during his coma dream.

 

6 hours ago, Ser Loras The Gay said:

Maybe that was just his mind hearing sounds he interpreted as a new whole language. Or they're sentient and I'm just wrong about they being conscious.

If they lacked consciousness, they wouldn't know how to fight with swords or make armor.

[Ser Loras The Gay]

38 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

If they lacked consciousness, they wouldn't know how to fight with swords or make armor.

Make armor?

[Macgregor of the North]

Good topic @300 H&H Mag

I have notes I've written on this and a piece I've thought about posting pretty much done. I'll maybe still stick it up sometime. 

I think it is to do with the Comet/red bleeding star of the Prophecy. I don't think it's much of a stretch to believe that smart beings that can attack in formation behind a leader, organise stealth Wight missions, raise Wights with Necromancy and talk in their own language have their own ideas and stories and tales, their own "prophecies" if you will, although they may not call it that. 

I think it's possible the Others saw the Comet from the far far reaches of the Lands of always winter before we read of it on page and it mobilised them for war which saw them up their activity in the haunted forest such as killing Wildlings for their Wight army numbers. 

The reason for this is because they too, just like Melisandre, view the Comet as the herald of the return/rebirth of a "fire" hero that will lead forces against them. One figure who will wake Dragons from stone and actually use them in the fight against them and also wield a blade against them such as the one that turned many of their kind into puddles thousands of years back. The blade we know as "Dragonsteel". 

So while Mel (I believe) hastened to reach Stannis on the strength of the Comets appearance because she viewed him as "the one", I think the Others also decided to mobilize for war on the strength of the Comets appearance because they are anticipating the return/appearance of "the one". 

When the group of Others in the haunted forest happened across Waymar, I think they viewed him as a high potential to be this figure, which is why they set the trap and approached him with back up numbers to test him and his sword. 

But it was only after the appearance of the red bleeding star of the Prophecy in the sky that they thought this "figure" could truly have returned. 

Some may think it's silly that the Others would think that the reborn hero figure, Azor Ahai or Prince that was Promised if you will, was ranging North with only two companions to take the fight to them, but going by their actions they took Waymar very seriously until they exposed him as simply a well dressed young Commander with regular castle forged steel. 

Until that though, I believe they thought he was potentially much more dangerous than that.

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

9 hours ago, Ser Loras The Gay said:

Make armor?

 

Quote

The Other slid gracefully from the saddle to stand upon the snow. Sword-slim it was, and milky white. Its armor rippled and shifted as it moved, and its feet did not break the crust of the new-fallen snow.

They definitely have armor. No, we don't see them make it. But it makes more sense for them to be making armor than for them to simply find it somewhere. 

[John Suburbs]

17 hours ago, Ser Loras The Gay said:

Make armor?

Yes, they wear armor, so I assume they make it themselves. Same with their swords.

Quote

A shadow emerged from the dark of the wood. It stood in front of Royce. Tall, it was, and gaunt and hard as old bones, with flesh pale as milk. It's armor seemed to change color as it moved, here it was white as new-fallen snow, there black as shadow...

 

[J. Stargaryen]

17 hours ago, Damon_Tor said:

Seems like a double standard: Baby Aegon's (bAegon?) face being unrecognizable is evidence that there was a swap, but Rhaego's body being fed to the dogs before anyone reliable could look at it isn't?

I think you're ignoring or underestimating the significance of the face's link to identity. In the real world that link is physical. In literature it can be thematic, symbolic, etc., as well. The Faceless Men identify as no one until they put on a face and assume its identity. So we know GRRM is not shying away from this theme. In fact, quite the opposite. So it is, in part, the very fact that Aegon was made unidentifiable that is suspicious. Being unidentifiable allows for a Perkin Warbeck scenario. Which probably occurred to a lot of readers who noticed the Wars of the Roses parallels.

Quote

The idea that a baby that was kicking in it's mother's womb the day before could be "dead for weeks" and covered in maggots when he's born isn't credible. "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" seems to be the relevant quote, and the burden is unmet.

Uh, magic?

[Therae]

2 minutes ago, J. Stargaryen said:

So it is, in part, the very fact that Aegon was made unidentifiable that is suspicious. Being unidentifiable allows for a Perkin Warbeck scenario. Which probably occurred to a lot of readers who noticed the Wars of the Roses parallels.

This. Rule Number One in eliminating legitimate scions of the dynasty you just overthrew: the corpses must be easily and widely recognized.

 

3 minutes ago, J. Stargaryen said:

Uh, magic?

And this, too.

[Alaynsa Starne]

If I had to guess, it would probably be a combination of multiple things. When you look at the conflicts that emerge in asoiaf, there's usually a series of events that spiral into a "trigger". With Robert's Rebellion, there first were a series of unlikely marriage alliances as a result of an unstable king, a plot by Rhaegar to overthrow Aerys, the Knight of the Laughing Tree incident, Lyanna's disappearance, Brandon's retaliation, Rickard and Brandon's executions, Aerys' calling for Ned and Robert's heads, and Jon Arryn's refusal to comply. So, we see that Jon Arryn's refusal was the trigger, but there's such a long line of poor decisions and bad actors that come before that it would be difficult to put one's finger on exactly where the point of no return was. With the War of Five Kings, it's a similar situation. 

With the Others, it's far more difficult to speculate because we have so little information about them. It's possible that it's a population thing. It seems that they have trouble reproducing, hence Craster's cooperation with them and their interest in using wights as troops. It might simply have taken them this long to build an army large enough to do Westeros any damage. Perhaps that, in combination with the failing NW, the weakening of the COTF, Bloodraven's age, the loss of magical wards (either from time or a failure on the Starks' part or something else) has given them the opportunity, with Jon's birth being the possible final trigger.

I did read an interesting thread once that pointed out that it's possible the Others are looking for Jon because they have a prophecy that Jon is Azor Ahai or some such. It's purely speculation, as are most things surrounding the Others, but it did make some sense.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

3 hours ago, Therae said:

This. Rule Number One in eliminating legitimate scions of the dynasty you just overthrew: the corpses must be easily and widely recognized.

<snip

Too bad Tywin chose a mad dog to carry this out. Gregor obviously did not know the rules, or he would have been more careful. Lorch definitely went overboard killing Rhaenys but at least he left her face alone so people knew it was her.

Rule Number Two must be to pick sane and reliable goons. 

[Lady Blizzardborn]

On 3/29/2017 at 1:42 PM, John Suburbs said:

<snip

Do we know who the Others pray to? I don't remember that being mentioned anywhere.

<snip

We don't know if they pray or have any religion at all. GRRM has purposely left us in the dark on a lot of things pertaining to the Others.

[John Suburbs]

18 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

We don't know if they pray or have any religion at all. GRRM has purposely left us in the dark on a lot of things pertaining to the Others.

Yes, that was my question to Colonel Green, who seemed certain that the Others did not worship the old gods. I thought there might have been some text to that affect that I missed.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Just now, John Suburbs said:

Yes, that was my question to Colonel Green, who seemed certain that the Others did not worship the old gods. I thought there might have been some text to that affect that I missed.

No, you haven't missed anything there. We have no clue who or what or if they worship.