promise me

[Prof. Cecily]

2 hours ago, Catelyn Cerwyn said:

Sometime composer for voices (and occasionally harp!) here. First off: the ‘high’ designation of ‘high harp’ does not appear to be a signifier of prestige – it is a musical signifier, that the instrument is a small one that cannot play low-pitched bass notes.---

There are brief references to harps and harpists in the other Dunk and Egg novellas (a singer warbling “The Day They Hanged Black Robin” in The Sworn Sword; a couple of Frey daughters playing “Two Hearts That Beat As One” on high harp, badly, in The Mystery Knight).

Thanks for that information!

Now you've inspired me to read the D&E novellas.

1 hour ago, SFDanny said:

There is a quote of Catelyn's which talks of being before Storm's End where she thinks Ned and his troops could have stayed when they came to relieve the siege. I have to run so I'll look for it when I get back, but there is no doubt Ned took his troops with him when he rode south from King's Landing. There is also a quote of Martin saying his troops didn't go south with him to Dorne. I'll post that too later.

The only real question is do his troops stay at Storm's End while he goes to the Tower of Joy and on to Starfall. They could have been commanded to return to King's Landing or someplace else without Ned.

I must say I hadn't really studied the hairdressers as a source of information. Now, I'll have to do a reread.

Interesting.

I must find my source for Ned and the armies riding helter skelter to KL.

That's what comes of not bookmarking immediately your information.

Edited to add:

Here's the source and a quotation.

Quote

Because Robert had taken a wound from Rhaegar during battle, he gave the pursuit of the remnants of the Targaryen army to Eddard Stark. Eddard followed the remnants of the army back to King's Landing, where the Red Keep was being held by several thousand loyalists.[1]

Quote

When Eddard Stark arrived in the city, he found Jaime seated on the Iron Throne and Aerys's corpse slumped below it.[45] Robert Baratheon arrived in the city at a later point, upon which he was presented with the bodies of Elia, Rhaenys and Aegon by Lord Tywin. Robert was pleased by these deaths, but Eddard called it murder of children. This resulted in an argument between Eddard and Robert, and Eddard rode out alone in anger to fight the final battles of the war in the south.[1]

Quote

After lifing the siege at Storm's End, Lord Eddard Stark rode further south with six companions: Howland Reed, Lord Willam Dustin, Ethan Glover, Martyn Cassel, Theo Wull and Ser Mark Ryswell.^[14] Near the Red Mountains of Dorne, they found three knights of Aerys II's Kingsguard, Lord Commander Gerold Hightower, and Ser Arthur Dayne and Ser Oswell Whent.^[14]

 

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Robert's_Rebellion#Battle_of_the_Trident

 

Can we deduce from this that Ned and his army went to KL after the battle of the trident, and from there, to the lifting the siege at Storm End.

I'd like others' opinions, but it seems clear to me that Ned's army did not stay at Storm's End, but rather went with him to mop up any conflicts remaining in the south.

I could be wrong though!

Edited to add: I see that I am! I can only plead noobness for my error.

And be grateful to have learned something today.

So the timeline is Ned leads his troops from the Trident to KL

Ned leads troops from KL to Storm's End

From there, on to ToJ with his companions.

Please correct me if I'm wrong!

 

The hairdresser.

Well, my source is RL. You'll not find it in the canon. 

I simply had a vision of Cersei grinning as a hairdresser set one of those perfect curls and murmured the latest gossip.

 

[kissdbyfire]

The Dunk & Egg novellas!

 

[SFDanny]

1 hour ago, Prof. Cecily said:

Thanks for that information!

Now you've inspired me to read the D&E novellas.

Interesting.

I must find my source for Ned and the armies riding helter skelter to KL.

That's what comes of not bookmarking immediately your information.

Do read the Dunk and Egg novellas! You will love them. At least I did. It used to be a problem in finding all of the novellas, but they have been republished in one book called A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms. That should be easily available in any large bookstore.

I know the quote of Ned and his troops racing to King's Landing, but that is before Ned leaves to relieve the siege of Storm's End. Yours is from Jaime in A Storm of Swords:

Quote

"Ned Stark was racing south with Robert's van, but my father's forces reached the city first. Pycelle convinced the king that his Warden of the West had come to defend him, so he opened the gates. The one time he should have heeded Varys, and he ignored him. My father had held back from the war, brooding on all the wrongs Aerys had done him and determined that House Lannister should be on the winning side. The Trident decided him" (ASoS 419)

This retells what Ned told us in A Game of Thrones:

Quote

"You took a wound from Rhaegar," Ned reminded him. "So when the Targaryen host broke and ran, you gave the pursuit into my hands. The remnants of Rhaegar's army fled back to King's Landing. We followed. Aerys was in the Red Keep with several thousand loyalists. I expected to find the gates closed to us." 

Robert gave an impatient shake of his head. "Instead you found that our men had already taken the city. What of it?"

"Not our men," Ned said patiently. "Lannister men. The lion of Lannister flew over the ramparts. not the crowned stag. And they had taken the city by treachery."  (AGoT 96)

After Ned takes control of King's Landing, Robert arrives and is crowned king. At his coronation, or shorty after, Tywin presents the bodies of Elia and her children as tribute to the new king. This is when Ned and Robert argue and Ned rides of that very day to continue the war in the south.

Quote

Ned did not feign surprise; Robert's hatred of the Targaryens was a madness in him. He remembered the angry words they had exchanged when Tywin Lannister had presented Robert with the corpses of Rhaegar's wife and children as a token of fealty. Ned had named that murder; Robert called it war. When he had protested that the young prince and princess were no more than babes, his new-made king had replied, "I see no babes. Only dragonspawn." Not even Jon Arryn had been able to calm that storm. Eddard Stark had ridden out that very day in a cold rage, to fight the last battles of the war alone in the south. It had taken another death to reconcile them; Lyanna's death, and the grief they had shared over her passing. (AGoT 93-94) bold emphasis added

So we know Lyanna's death and other battles of the war in the south take place after Ned leaves King's Landing. How do we know the relief of Storm's End is after this? Because Stannis tells us so:

Quote

For such crimes there must be justice. Starting with Cersei and her abominations. But only starting. I mean to scour that court clean. As Robert should have done, after the Trident. Ser Barristan once told me that the rot in King Aerys's reign began with Varys. The eunuch should never have been pardoned. No more than the Kingslayer. At the least, Robert should have stripped the white cloak from Jaime and sent him to the Wall, as Lord Stark urged. He listened to Jon Arryn instead. I was still at Storm's End, under siege and unconsulted." (ASoS 411) bold emphasis added

Stannis is still under siege when Robert pardons Varys, Pycelle, and Jaime at Robert's coronation. Ned leaves that day to go south and continue the war. And he takes his army with him, as Catelyn remembers when she is before Storm's End as a witness to Stannis and Renly's parlay. .

Quote

Stannis Baratheon's foragers had cut the trees down for his siege towers and catapults. Catelyn wondered how long the grove had stood, and whether Ned had rested here when he led his host south to lift the last siege of Storm's End. He had won a great victory that day, all the great for being bloodless. (ACoK 352) bold emphasis added

But Ned does not take his troops with him into Dorne and to the Tower of Joy. Martin tells us so.

Quote

September 11, 1999.

The Baratheon Brothers

First. When Cersei and Ned talked in the godswood in aGoT, she mentioned Jon, and wondered who his mother was, (paraphrasing) "...Some peasant wife you raped, while her holdfast burned?" This indicates that there were fightings in Dorne when Ned went there to get Lyanna back. But I thought the Martells stayed out of the war, and that Ned went there when the war was all over. So: did Ned take an army with him into Dorne, or not?

Ned's army did not accompany him to Dorne, no. There were no battles in Dorne during Robert's Rebellion, though doubtless there were minor skirmishes along the borders. But it's not entirely correct that the Martells stayed out of the war. Rhaegar had Dornish troops with him on the Trident, under the command of Prince Lewyn of the Kingsguard. However, the Dornishmen did not support him as strongly as they might have, in part because of anger at his treatment of Elia, in part because of Prince Doran's innate caution. Cersei's line reflects no more than a desire to wound, to say something nasty to get a rise out of Ned.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1046/ bold emphasis added

So the timeline goes from the Battle of the Trident with Rhaegar's death to the sack of King's Landing, to the coronation of Robert and the pardon of Pycelle, Varys, and Jaime and the presentation of the bodies of Elia and her children, on to the argument between Robert and Ned, with Ned leaving that day to go onto Storm's End, and then Ned leaving Storm's End with only his six companions and going to the Tower of Joy, at which Ned fights with the three knights of the Kingsguard, finds Lyanna dying, and goes to Starfall to return the sword Dawn. On his return, it seem clear he brings Jon with him, at least part of the way, and Ned stops in King's Landing to tell Robert of Lyanna's death.

[bent branch]

16 hours ago, Traverys said:

 (@SFDanny will have to excuse me for mentioning the show inside their sacred bubble of General ASoIaF.)

I don't know what tone SFDanny used, but mentioning the show IS totally forbidden in the books section. You could find yourself banned.

[SFDanny]

18 minutes ago, bent branch said:

I don't know what tone SFDanny used, but mentioning the show IS totally forbidden in the books section. You could find yourself banned.

Tone? I thought i was rather nice about it. Placed it as a personal request and everything. Just a reminder for all. If there are any questions about Show references in this forum, please read mormont's warning pinned on the first page.

[bent branch]

2 minutes ago, SFDanny said:

Tone? I thought i was rather nice about it. Placed it as a personal request and everything. Just a reminder for all. If there are any questions about Show references in this forums, please read Mormont's warning pinned on the first page.

I'm sure your tone was fine since I didn't even remember what you had said to Traverys about the show. I'm just sitting here reading the thread and I notice Traverys seemed a tad upset at being told not to bring up the show. I just wanted to reinforce that show talk is forbidden.

[SFDanny]

5 minutes ago, bent branch said:

I'm sure your tone was fine since I didn't even remember what you had said to Traverys about the show. I'm just sitting here reading the thread and I notice Traverys seemed a tad upset at being told not to bring up the show. I just wanted to reinforce that show talk is forbidden.

All's good bb. I added a link to my reference to mormont's warning

[SFDanny]

4 hours ago, Traverys said:

Thanks for the additional quotes! I don't have the Dunk and Egg books on kindle so can't do an easy search for them.

May I suggest the great on-line resource "A Search of Ice and Fire."

[Ygrain]

8 hours ago, SFDanny said:

We don't know who told Cersei her information, but clearly it points to Jon coming from Dorne, and appearing after Ned left Starfall. Her barb about "the child you stole" points directly to Jon possibly being Ashara's child, And it pinpoints his appearance to Ned's time in Dorne. My guess is that Cersei hears her tales about Jon from reports to the small council after Ned leaves and goes North. It's possible that it comes from Tywin but someone is looking into Jon's origins.

The interesting thing here, I think, is that Cersei also speaks of a "Dornish peasant" as a possibility of being Jon's mother. This maybe a reference to Wylla and her claim that she is Jon's mother. Anyway, both rumors reinforce the other. I don't see any other real possibility for when Jon is first known outside of Dorne.

I think that the rumours of Ashara as Jon's mother rely mainly on her having a baby, but you are right that Cersei speculating on the mother's identity as a Dornish peasant does seem to point to some general knowledge of Jon being from Dorne. However... one thing occured to me: do we know for sure that Ned went to Starfall directly from ToJ? IIRC, that quote I posted above mentions killing Dayne and returning Dawn in a single sentence but that doesn't necessarily mean there was no considerable passage of time between the two events, and I don't recall any other instance when this is mentioned. You know, it has always bugged me a bit, that Ned goes happily wandering around Dorne while there are Lyanna's bones to be interred and Robert to report to. What if - what IF! - after the ToJ showdown, Ned sent Wylla with Jon to Starfall, went back to his troops and to KL, made up with Robert and sent Lyanna north with most of the army, and then travelled with his men to Starfall, where he returned Dawn and recovered "his natural son". Hence, there would be absolutely no connection between Lyanna and Jon, because that would be two separate trips, two separate locations. It might also be perfectly convincing to tell Robert that the journey to Starfall was not only about Dawn but that there was this Dornish girl who he had met and who wrote him that she had a baby, and Robert wouldn't suspect a thing.

I just can't imagine Ned pulling wool over everyone's eyes if he turned up with Lyanna's bones and a baby, so, IMHO, the two events must have been separated somehow.

5 hours ago, Traverys said:

I concede that maybe Jon is not brought into the picture until later, but that would also mean that Ned still played decoy while Wylla and Jon headed north.

There's really no reason to think that Ned didn't see Robert after the Tower of Joy, but let's start at the beginning of the chain of logic: Robert heads a rebellion over his perception that his betrothed was "stolen" from him, becomes king of the realm upon his victory, sends Ned to lift the siege of Storm's End and to retrieve his sister, and Ned doesn't report back to his king in person to report the death of his sister? It's not like King's Landing is out of the way heading north. There's plenty of textual precedent to believe that Ned would now need Robert's (aka Jon Arryn's) permission to officially return to Winterfell. The war isn't over until your liege says its over. We see this with not only Robb and the north, but also when Edmure (foolishly) dismisses the Riverlands lords to go back and defend their own holdfasts.

Well, yeah, I do think that Ned went to KL to report to Robert, I just don't think Jon was anywhere around.

[Prof. Cecily]

4 hours ago, SFDanny said:

Do read the Dunk and Egg novellas! You will love them. At least I did. It used to be a problem in finding all of the novellas, but they have been republished in one book called A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms. That should be easily available in any large bookstore.

I know the quote of Ned and his troops racing to King's Landing, but that is before Ned leaves to relieve the siege of Storm's End. Yours is from Jaime in A Storm of Swords:

This retells what Ned told us in A Game of Thrones:

After Ned takes control of King's Landing, Robert arrives and is crowned king. At his coronation, or shorty after, Tywin presents the bodies of Elia and her children as tribute to the new king. This is when Ned and Robert argue and Ned rides of that very day to continue the war in the south.

So we know Lyanna's death and other battles of the war in the south take place after Ned leaves King's Landing. How do we know the relief of Storm's End is after this? Because Stannis tells us so:

Stannis is still under siege when Robert pardons Varys, Pycelle, and Jaime at Robert's coronation. Ned leaves that day to go south and continue the war. And he takes his army with him, as Catelyn remembers when she is before Storm's End as a witness to Stannis and Renly's parlay. .

But Ned does not take his troops with him into Dorne and to the Tower of Joy. Martin tells us so.

So the timeline goes from the Battle of the Trident with Rhaegar's death to the sack of King's Landing, to the coronation of Robert and the pardon of Pycelle, Varys, and Jaime and the presentation of the bodies of Elia and her children, on to the argument between Robert and Ned, with Ned leaving that day to go onto Storm's End, and then Ned leaving Storm's End with only his six companions and going to the Tower of Joy, at which Ned fights with the three knights of the Kingsguard, finds Lyanna dying, and goes to Starfall to return the sword Dawn. On his return, it seem clear he brings Jon with him, at least part of the way, and Ned stops in King's Landing to tell Robert of Lyanna's death.

Thanks for such a clear exposition of the events. Bookmarked.

2 hours ago, SFDanny said:

May I suggest the great on-line resource "A Search of Ice and Fire."

Seconded.

[Wolfgirly]

11 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

No, just NO. Rhaegar playing harp for the commoners around KL and then going to the pub to drink the money he made playing is a show invention, and one of the most irking imo. 

Oh dear. I've read pieces that inform that just before the Tourney at Harrenhal, Lyanna Stark and her family and so on from Winterfell, grouped in a tavern whilst Rhaegar played the harp. Where was this from... Lyanna wept at the music he played. As for the TV show, I have read two books so far, "Game of Thrones" and "Clash of Kings." It was Daenerys who was told by someone that Rhaegar didn't like killing and loved to sing. 

9 hours ago, Prof. Cecily said:

A harp made of silver? Not likely. Harps are made of wood. They need to vibrate.

Where is that idea from?

I mentioned the wagon to underline the difficulties of transported a high harp. They weigh in at 20 kilos.

I'm sure you're right about camping in the woods!

Sorry it was silver stringed. I don't think the harp was made entirely of silver but I have read the strings were made of silver or I could be wrong. I got the idea from various blogs writing about it. I plan to read the third book soon as possible, and have been researching also into the harp. I'd love to know where it is tbh. 

[Prof. Cecily]

12 minutes ago, Wolfgirly said:

Oh dear. I've read pieces that inform that just before the Tourney at Harrenhal, Lyanna Stark and her family and so on from Winterfell, grouped in a tavern whilst Rhaegar played the harp. Where was this from... Lyanna wept at the music he played. As for the TV show, I have read two books so far, "Game of Thrones" and "Clash of Kings." It was Daenerys who was told by someone that Rhaegar didn't like killing and loved to sing. 

Sorry it was silver stringed. I don't think the harp was made entirely of silver but I have read the strings were made of silver or I could be wrong. I got the idea from various blogs writing about it. I plan to read the third book soon as possible, and have been researching also into the harp. I'd love to know where it is tbh. 

 

You can find  references from all the books of ASoIaF to the silver strings, the opening feast of the Harrenhal tourney and much more at this search engine

https://asearchoficeandfire.com/

While this search engine is elegant and easy to use, it has two quirks- you must use the right keywords and you have to spell the key words correctly.

I hope you have as much fun with it as do I!

Perhaps the most enjoyable way to research the harp would be to listen to medieval harp music as you read the saga or browse this forum.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a91gLsJNHmQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZFzYlCNrKo

 

 

 

[kissdbyfire]

1 hour ago, Wolfgirly said:

Oh dear. I've read pieces that inform that just before the Tourney at Harrenhal, Lyanna Stark and her family and so on from Winterfell, grouped in a tavern whilst Rhaegar played the harp. Where was this from... Lyanna wept at the music he played. As for the TV show, I have read two books so far, "Game of Thrones" and "Clash of Kings." It was Daenerys who was told by someone that Rhaegar didn't like killing and loved to sing. 

Sorry it was silver stringed. I don't think the harp was made entirely of silver but I have read the strings were made of silver or I could be wrong. I got the idea from various blogs writing about it. I plan to read the third book soon as possible, and have been researching also into the harp. I'd love to know where it is tbh. 

Nope. Rhaegar played at the feast in Harrenhal. If you've only read AGoT and ACoK, you have to be very careful w/ what you post since show stuff is not allowed here. There are several posters, myself included, who don't watch the show and really don't want to hear/read anything about it and its absurd inventions.

[HaeSuse]

On 5/26/2017 at 10:47 AM, Widowmaker 811 said:

 

Know this. I like you guys.  At least you both recognize that Jon is a bastard.  Many of his fans do not and refuse to even after convincing arguments that he is.  

 

On 5/26/2017 at 9:42 AM, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Mya Stone is known to be Robert's bastard but she is still a Stone and not a Storm.

I think I read somewhere a bastard can take a father's or mother's birth places bastard name and the place they were born if both parents are high born. So if r+l=j Jon could take Waters, Snow or Sand. I could be wrong though. 

 

On 5/26/2017 at 0:52 PM, Dorian Martell's son said:

Rightful or not does not matter. It is how he was raised and he is a Snow. Lord snow to be exact 

 

Only the Kings or Lords of winterfell are buried in the crypts. The fact that Lyanna is buried there isan indication that something important plot wise is in there 

 

I think you guys miss my point. I know that they take the name according to their upbringing. I'm not claiming Jon should change his bastard last name. Or that it would even be worth mentioning, except that GRRM uses symbolism like no one else. And I'm asking for thoughts on whether the surname Waters would possibly have any bearing on Jon as a person, his story arc, the greater plot of the books, etc. Regardless of the above quoted stuff, does Jon Waters potentially bring any new symbolism into the books?

[Ralphis Baratheon]

33 minutes ago, HaeSuse said:

 

 

 

I think you guys miss my point. I know that they take the name according to their upbringing. I'm not claiming Jon should change his bastard last name. Or that it would even be worth mentioning, except that GRRM uses symbolism like no one else. And I'm asking for thoughts on whether the surname Waters would possibly have any bearing on Jon as a person, his story arc, the greater plot of the books, etc. Regardless of the above quoted stuff, does Jon Waters potentially bring any new symbolism into the books?

 I don't see him ever taking the last name Waters though so I don't see why it would have any bearing on him. I mean even if he finds out the truth of his birth I think he'll keep the name Snow. 

Can you give an example of the symbolism you are referring too?

[HaeSuse]

2 minutes ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

 I don't see him ever taking the last name Waters though so I don't see why it would have any bearing on him. I mean even if he finds out the truth of his birth I think he'll keep the name Snow. 

Can you give an example of the symbolism you are referring too?

Oh dear jesus christ. I am not saying he would take the name Waters. I can't say that loudly enough, can I? This member of asoiaf.westeros.org is very much NOT implying that Jon Snow should, would or could take the last name Waters. However, what I AM doing is trying to ask if there could possibly be symbolism just in the very fact that he could possibly have turned out to have been a Waters.

 

For instance, there is symbolism in Viserys wearing a crown of gold that Drogo gave him, even though he never sat the iron throne. There is symbolism in Cersei having a valonquar, even if it turns out to be Jamie instead of Tyrion. There can be symbolism in things that are yet to come, or will never come at all. GRRM doesn't rely solely on symbolism of the true, the fact, the real. He also uses symbolism of the false, the lies, the yet to come, the never to come.

 

Oh, just forget it. I was never here.

[SFDanny]

4 hours ago, Ygrain said:

I think that the rumours of Ashara as Jon's mother rely mainly on her having a baby, but you are right that Cersei speculating on the mother's identity as a Dornish peasant does seem to point to some general knowledge of Jon being from Dorne. However... one thing occured to me: do we know for sure that Ned went to Starfall directly from ToJ? IIRC, that quote I posted above mentions killing Dayne and returning Dawn in a single sentence but that doesn't necessarily mean there was no considerable passage of time between the two events, and I don't recall any other instance when this is mentioned. You know, it has always bugged me a bit, that Ned goes happily wandering around Dorne while there are Lyanna's bones to be interred and Robert to report to. What if - what IF! - after the ToJ showdown, Ned sent Wylla with Jon to Starfall, went back to his troops and to KL, made up with Robert and sent Lyanna north with most of the army, and then travelled with his men to Starfall, where he returned Dawn and recovered "his natural son". Hence, there would be absolutely no connection between Lyanna and Jon, because that would be two separate trips, two separate locations. It might also be perfectly convincing to tell Robert that the journey to Starfall was not only about Dawn but that there was this Dornish girl who he had met and who wrote him that she had a baby, and Robert wouldn't suspect a thing.

I just can't imagine Ned pulling wool over everyone's eyes if he turned up with Lyanna's bones and a baby, so, IMHO, the two events must have been separated somehow.

Well, yeah, I do think that Ned went to KL to report to Robert, I just don't think Jon was anywhere around.

There is lots of speculation, as I'm sure you've been aware of and probably participated in, over the years about how long Ned's trip takes. If Robb is about a year old when Catelyn arrives in Winterfell, then that event likely takes some 13 to 15 months after Ned leaves King's Landing. Ned's arrival is then sometime before that in 284. On the far end, we know Catelyn and Ned have to be together nine months before Sansa is born in late 286. My guess is they are both in Winterfell in late 284.

Which is to say your suggestion could work. We are talking vast distances traveled here, and your suggestion about doubles a good part of that, but as we know Martin can speed up the time needed to travel those distances when he wants. Normally, I would argue the trip from King's Landing to Storm's End and on to the Tower of Joy takes somewhere in the neighborhood of six weeks to two months. With your suggestion some of that time on a return to King's Landing from the Tower of Joy can be cut off because Ned need not go back to Storm's End first from the Tower of Joy. He is also traveling without his army and can therefore travel faster. But even if he can cut the time traveled in half we are talking about adding something like two months onto Ned's journey. Or at least that's my rough estimate. Again, that is only a back of the envelope estimation that tells me your idea fits within the parameters of what's possible.

I'm not sure how much such a course would gain Ned, and it raises a number of questions. Your suggestion speaks of Wylla and Jon making the journey to Starfall by themselves. Why would Ned trust his nephew to a woman he has only just met? Why would he trust both of their safety to just Wylla's ability to go to Starfall? At the very least, I would think Howland would have to be involved in that trip. Perhaps there is someone else at the Tower who can open the way to Starfall. Lady Ashara? But I think that after just pledging to the dying Lyanna to raise and protect Jon as his own son, this course is unlikely.

In very old R+L=J threads some, including Ran, used to raise the possibility of Jon being taken from the tower before Ned arrives. This scenario always involved Ashara and Wylla taking the babe to safety. My main objection was always why didn't at least one of the Kingsguard go with them. But such a scenario answers your question of why Ned would go to Starfall first - because he had to. He had to get to Jon before he disappeared and Ned did not know who he was. I still find this idea lacking.

Instead, I think Ned decides to take Jon to Starfall knowing full well what people will think if he suddenly appears with a child after a visit to an old flame (lover?) He uses both the Ashara gossip and the Wylla cover story as a double blind of Jon's origins. He also uses his reputation of a man of honor to make people believe his fall from honor was the real story. This works, especially with Robert, who wants to believe Ned is secretly like him.

What I don't see is the great advantage in delaying his trip to Starfall in order to accomplish this aim. The excuse of a letter from Wylla telling Ned of the birth of his son, seems fraught with the same danger as Jon just showing up with Ned after returning Dawn to Starfall. But most of all it assumes a level of trust Ned would have with the Daynes that I don't know that he has before returning Dawn. Anyway, those are my initial thoughts to your very interesting and novel idea. I will think more on it and see if there is a way to narrow down the window of time for Ned's return more than the rather wide one I mentioned above.

Good post, Ygrain!

 

[Ygrain]

25 minutes ago, SFDanny said:

I'm not sure how much such a course would gain Ned, and it raises a number of questions. Your suggestion speaks of Wylla and Jon making the journey to Starfall by themselves. Why would Ned trust his nephew to a woman he has only just met? Why would he trust both of their safety to just Wylla's ability to go to Starfall? At the very least, I would think Howland would have to be involved in that trip. Perhaps there is someone else at the Tower who can open the way to Starfall. Lady Ashara? But I think that after just pledging to the dying Lyanna to raise and protect Jon as his own son, this course is unlikely.

Wylla had been deemed reliable enough by Lyanna and the KG, or else she wouldn't have been at ToJ in the first place. If there were any other people present, it would definitely make Wylla's trip safer - perhaps some supply party was due, so she would have to travel only a part of the way? 

Howland would be an option, as well - it's basically a variation of the scenario in which Ned dispatches Howland, Wylla and Jon from Starfall and himself returns to KL. As for Ashara - well, some time ago I entertained an idea that she was present at ToJ, as well, to keep company to Lyanna just like she had to poor Elia.

 

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In very old R+L=J threads some, including Ran, used to raise the possibility of Jon being taken from the tower before Ned arrives. This scenario always involved Ashara and Wylla taking the babe to safety. My main objection was always why didn't at least one of the Kingsguard go with them. But such a scenario answers your question of why Ned would go to Starfall first - because he had to. He had to get to Jon before he disappeared and Ned did not know who he was. I still find this idea lacking.

I'm quite fond of the scenario, because I believe the KG absence has a parallel in Aegon II's secret departure from KL - he didn't have any KG with him, either, because their presence would be like a red flag "the king is here". And the ToJ trio are still true to their vows - they are protecting their king, dying for him if need be, by not letting anyone discover his existence.

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What I don't see is the great advantage in delaying his trip to Starfall in order to accomplish this aim. The excuse of a letter from Wylla telling Ned of the birth of his son, seems fraught with the same danger as Jon just showing up with Ned after returning Dawn to Starfall.

Perhaps if Ned claimed that she was about to give birth soon?

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But most of all it assumes a level of trust Ned would have with the Daynes that I don't know that he has before returning Dawn.

Yeah, that might be a problem. Some previous involvement on Ashara's part (we don't know from whom Ned learned about ToJ, after all) could be an explanation; I've always wondered - unsupported as this is so far - if, after Ashara was dishonoured by Brandon, Ned still might have been willing to marry her. Even though this didn't happen, such an act of goodwill would have counted for something.

ETA: I've forgotten to mention Arthur's sad smile upon encountering Ned - that might be a hint at some sort of connection between the two men, and by extension, with the Daynes.

 

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Anyway, those are my initial thoughts to your very interesting and novel idea. I will think more on it and see if there is a way to narrow down the window of time for Ned's return more than the rather wide one I mentioned above.

I'm afraid that without any new information, we are at a dead end. But I am glad I could come up with something new, it's getting increasingly difficult these days (wish GRRM were my bitch, we would have had TWOW by now  )

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Good post, Ygrain!

 

Off topic, but of particular interest to you, I guess, concerning that supposed change in succession. If Hightower knew that Viserys was named Aerys' heir, he wouldn't have hesitated for a single second what his duty was. But Arthur Dayne? I don't think he would be all too happy to serve a younger version of Aerys, so if the information came through the Daynes (if it came at all, that is), I don't think it would be quite below Arthur to withhold this bit from the White Bull and let the succession run its usual course, to Rhaegar's son.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

21 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Off topic, but of particular interest to you, I guess, concerning that supposed change in succession. If Hightower knew that Viserys was named Aerys' heir, he wouldn't have hesitated for a single second what his duty was. But Arthur Dayne? I don't think he would be all too happy to serve a younger version of Aerys, so if the information came through the Daynes (if it came at all, that is), I don't think it would be quite below Arthur to withhold this bit from the White Bull and let the succession run its usual course, to Rhaegar's son.

Just for perspective, Gerold Hightower, the white bull, would have come from King's Landing where he watched the brutal execution of Rickard and Brandon Stark at Aerys command.

If Rheagar returned to Kings Landing with the intention of calling a council and deposing his father, keeping the Kingsguard loyal to him (or disenchanted with Aerys) away so they don't have to pick between their oath and him until after the crown changed hands.

Ironically, it could be that the Kingsguard were at the ToJ for their own protection as much as to babysit.

After all, the Kingsguard does not run (but they do hide!)

[sweetsunray]

On 26/5/2017 at 9:41 AM, elder brother jonothor dar said:

But the promise has not been kept, did he promise to bury her in the Sept of Baelor or maybe a hill overlooking Stormsend?

Ned only thinks of broken promises in his cell after Robert's death. Before that he thinks of promises kept.

There is no actual reason to believe that Ned's broken promises in his cell have anything to do with Lyanna. Just because he often thinks "promise me" in certain situations, and we are then always notified that those were Lyanna's words, does not mean that any and every promise Ned ponders is a promise to Lyanna 15 years ago.

He made promises to Robert: to protect and help his children (Ned promised to keep his bastard children safe in his mind), to eat boar, to stop the order to assassinate Dany. Varys told him it was too late to revoke the assassination order. Ned didn't eat any boar. And from a dark cell he sure as hell wasn't protecting and helping any of Robert's bastard children.

Ned was unable to keep the promises to Robert, and those are the "broken promises". This becomes more clear because the paragraphs before and after him lamenting broken promises do not mention Lyanna at all, but only current events and open questions: Cat, his daughters, Robb, etc. Only much much later in the chapter do we get a reference to Lyanna, with the memory of Rhaegar crowning Lyanna, and Ned reaching for the thorns.

Now, George imo did want to mislead us into jumping to the conclusion that "broken promises" have to do with Lyanna, because we were already pavlovian trained to think "ah promises -> Lyanna"; so that we think Ned' letter is one meant for Jon. But the sourrounding literary evidence is uncannily different from any previous mind wanderings whenever Ned thinks of promises to Lyanna. Personally I've come to the conclusion it was a letter for Tobho Mott to send Gendry to Winterfell. He was trying to keep at least one promise to Robert, before he'd die.