Kalbear Posted July 20, 2017 Share Posted July 20, 2017 8 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said: His approval numbers have dipped in light of the Donny Jr. meeting, haven't they? Not statistically, no. It went down about half a point. It's stayed pretty consistent at the upper end of 30% for a while now. Really, at this point of the game you have to think that if you're a Trump supporter you're going to be a Trump supporter for a long time. There's too much sunk cost there. 8 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said: I get that hardcore Trumpists don't care, but I do believe his more moderate supporters are beginning to turn away from him. I realize that none of this is likely to result in impeachment, but this is damaging the party as a whole, don't you think? Not particularly, no. More Republicans now believe that Russia had nothing to do with it and that the Trump campaign had nothing to do with it either - even after the DJTJ revelation. There are a good number of Republicans who believe that the DJTJ email is fake news and didn't happen, despite DJTJ admitting and releasing it himself. 8 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said: On top of that, I'm enjoying the drama. I'm all in for it being ratcheted up another notch. I kind of like to watch TV shows for my drama, not my kid's survival. But hey, I'm sure it's super awesome for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manhole Eunuchsbane Posted July 20, 2017 Share Posted July 20, 2017 6 minutes ago, Kalbear said: I kind of like to watch TV shows for my drama, not my kid's survival. But hey, I'm sure it's super awesome for you. Not sure how this ties into Trumpcare, outside of the distraction. And even that doesn't appear to be moving that needle in the wrong direction. That said, I certainly sympathize with your situation and I agree that the Trumpcare issue is certainly more important. I don't mean to downplay that issue in favor of the Russia stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fez Posted July 20, 2017 Share Posted July 20, 2017 24 minutes ago, Kalbear said: Not statistically, no. It went down about half a point. It's stayed pretty consistent at the upper end of 30% for a while now. Really, at this point of the game you have to think that if you're a Trump supporter you're going to be a Trump supporter for a long time. There's too much sunk cost there. At least until there's a recession. Or if the health insurance industry collapses. Either of which seems somewhat likely to occur within the next four years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Pepper Posted July 20, 2017 Share Posted July 20, 2017 31 minutes ago, Fez said: At least until there's a recession. Or if the health insurance industry collapses. Either of which seems somewhat likely to occur within the next four years. This would typically be true but those who voted for Trump are not rational actors. These are the sorts of people who actively rely on the ACA while at the same time voting to have it repealed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted July 20, 2017 Share Posted July 20, 2017 20 minutes ago, Dr. Pepper said: This would typically be true but those who voted for Trump are not rational actors. These are the sorts of people who actively rely on the ACA while at the same time voting to have it repealed. That can be rational; they can believe that the ACA isn't good enough, or is hurting things they care more about (such as abortions). The notion that you can benefit from something and still vote to take it away as an irrational thing really needs to stop, as does the incorrect calculus about people being upset about something like the BRCA but that meaning they're insane for voting for Republicans - because while they're upset, they care more about other things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Pepper Posted July 20, 2017 Share Posted July 20, 2017 6 minutes ago, Kalbear said: That can be rational; they can believe that the ACA isn't good enough, or is hurting things they care more about (such as abortions). The notion that you can benefit from something and still vote to take it away as an irrational thing really needs to stop, as does the incorrect calculus about people being upset about something like the BRCA but that meaning they're insane for voting for Republicans - because while they're upset, they care more about other things. Perhaps in some cases, but certainly not here. Your abortion example? Completely senseless considering mandated access to birth control (particularly long-acting bc) correlates with a drop in abortion rates. One might argue that anti abortion laws across the country had something to do with it, though a number of states that implemented these things had increased rates (and of course many of the laws have been ruled unconstitutional). None of these voters voted for someone who would improve the ACA or even work to provide better coverage and access or fewer abortions. FFS, these idiots are even voting to defund reproductive health care. In any case, healthcare is but one single example of a cause where voting for Trump reflects an irrational actor. You can hit on any number of items and still come to the conclusion that voting for Trump (I'm talking Trump specifically, not just any establishment Republican) was done by irrational actors. The economy, first amendment rights, anti-corruption, and so on and so forth. Trump is antithetical to nearly everything they want and they still voted for him. They are irrational actors and I don't think one can predict that they'd react in rational ways, such as turning their backs on him when healthcare or the economy fails. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manhole Eunuchsbane Posted July 20, 2017 Share Posted July 20, 2017 5 minutes ago, Dr. Pepper said: In any case, healthcare is but one single example of a cause where voting for Trump reflects an irrational actor. You can hit on any number of items and still come to the conclusion that voting for Trump (I'm talking Trump specifically, not just any establishment Republican) was done by irrational actors. The economy, first amendment rights, anti-corruption, and so on and so forth. Trump is antithetical to nearly everything they want and they still voted for him. They are irrational actors and I don't think one can predict that they'd react in rational ways, such as turning their backs on him when healthcare or the economy fails. You could also point to a number of different issues where he was the only candidate that was even bothering to address. Islamic terrorism and immigration chiefly. If as a voter these issues were important to you, he was literally the only candidate that was talking about these issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Pepper Posted July 20, 2017 Share Posted July 20, 2017 12 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said: You could also point to a number of different issues where he was the only candidate that was even bothering to address. Islamic terrorism and immigration chiefly. If as a voter these issues were important to you, he was literally the only candidate that was talking about these issues. Except that's absolutely not true... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manhole Eunuchsbane Posted July 20, 2017 Share Posted July 20, 2017 4 minutes ago, Dr. Pepper said: Except that's absolutely not true... Give me an example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Pepper Posted July 20, 2017 Share Posted July 20, 2017 7 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said: Give me an example. I mean, are you being fucking serious? I get that Trump told you that no one was talking about immigration or terrorism, but that's not true. Maybe you were too busy making your popcorn to hear? Look, I'll give you millions of results that you can sift through. I'll just pick a handful of the candidates. There's a little site called google where you can check out others. https://www.google.com/search?q=hillary+immigration&oq=hillary+immigration&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l5.3198j0j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8 https://www.google.com/search?q=hillary+immigration&oq=hillary+immigration&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l5.3198j0j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#q=bernie+immigration https://www.google.com/search?q=hillary+immigration&oq=hillary+immigration&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l5.3198j0j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#q=ted+crus+immigration https://www.google.com/search?q=hillary+immigration&oq=hillary+immigration&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l5.3198j0j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#q=jeb+bush+immigration https://www.google.com/search?q=hillary+immigration&oq=hillary+immigration&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l5.3198j0j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#q=kasich+immigration https://www.google.com/search?q=hillary+immigration&oq=hillary+immigration&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l5.3198j0j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#q=kasich+terrorism https://www.google.com/search?q=hillary+immigration&oq=hillary+immigration&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l5.3198j0j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#q=ted+cruz+terrorism https://www.google.com/search?q=hillary+immigration&oq=hillary+immigration&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l5.3198j0j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#q=marco+rubio+terrorism https://www.google.com/search?q=hillary+immigration&oq=hillary+immigration&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l5.3198j0j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#q=hillary+terrorism https://www.google.com/search?q=hillary+immigration&oq=hillary+immigration&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l5.3198j0j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#q=bernie+terrorism Perhaps what you mean to say is that Trump was the only one who openly stated that Mexicans are rapists, immigration should be stopped, Mexico should pay for a wall, and Muslims should be banned? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manhole Eunuchsbane Posted July 20, 2017 Share Posted July 20, 2017 Hillary is really the only relevant piece here, as none of the others made it to the final cut. And Hillary was talking about easing constrictions on immigration. If your default position was immigration is a problem, then you can't vote for Hillary. I'll allow for the fact that Cruz had a similar stance as Trump, but would you view a Cruz voter as being any more enlightened than a Trump voter? The Hillary anti-terrorism stuff is kind of laughable. Radical jihadism? What jihad isn't radical. The fact that she can't even properly name the problem tells you where she stands. Just to clarify, I don't think that Trump has any better ideas or standing to actually fix these problems, but at the very least he addressed them directly. His opponent danced around them, as she does so many things. I couldn't imagine casting a vote for Trump outside of a scenario where a gun was pointed to my head. That said, I can understand why some folks voted for him. It's not entirely irrational. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Pepper Posted July 20, 2017 Share Posted July 20, 2017 3 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said: Hillary is really the only relevant piece here, as none of the others made it to the final cut. And Hillary was talking about easing constrictions on immigration. If your default position was immigration is a problem, then you can't vote for Hillary. I'll allow for the fact that Cruz had a similar stance as Trump, but would you view a Cruz voter as being any more enlightened than a Trump voter? Hillary spoke about immigration and terrorism. Your assertion was that no one but Trump was talking about it at all. It's clearly not true. Obviously I think Cruz (and most of the GOP primary line up) is pretty terrible. Me and mine would be harmed by a Cruz administration an it would be scary because it would lean dominionist, but I feel pretty certain that American democracy would still be standing when he's gone. I'd be able to rely on the notion that these things are cyclical and things will cycle back in the correct way after a term or two or even three. The thing about Cruz is he didn't go about spouting things like, say, a desire for anti-corruption while also gleefully describing how much corruption he was involved with. Most of Cruz's platform was crazy in the typical way of conservativism while Trumps was crazy in the way of magical irrational thinking. And it continues to be. No, I don't think a Cruz voter would be all that enlightened, but I certainly wouldn't consider them irrational in the way Trump voters and continued supporters are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manhole Eunuchsbane Posted July 20, 2017 Share Posted July 20, 2017 15 minutes ago, Dr. Pepper said: Hillary spoke about immigration and terrorism. Your assertion was that no one but Trump was talking about it at all. It's clearly not true. Obviously I think Cruz (and most of the GOP primary line up) is pretty terrible. Me and mine would be harmed by a Cruz administration an it would be scary because it would lean dominionist, but I feel pretty certain that American democracy would still be standing when he's gone. I'd be able to rely on the notion that these things are cyclical and things will cycle back in the correct way after a term or two or even three. The thing about Cruz is he didn't go about spouting things like, say, a desire for anti-corruption while also gleefully describing how much corruption he was involved with. Most of Cruz's platform was crazy in the typical way of conservativism while Trumps was crazy in the way of magical irrational thinking. And it continues to be. No, I don't think a Cruz voter would be all that enlightened, but I certainly wouldn't consider them irrational in the way Trump voters and continued supporters are. Fair enough. You're right in that I overstated my case. Hillary did talk about these things, but I don't think a lot of what she said garnered much for her in the way of votes. She and Trump are clearly at the opposite ends of the spectrum on immigration, so that's likely a push. I do think she probably lost voters on the terrorism issue. I don't think most of America was interested in further american military adventurism in the Middle East. And that seemed to be the focus of her argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drawkcabi Posted July 21, 2017 Share Posted July 21, 2017 Forgive me if this has all ready been brought up forgive me, these threads move so fast. All those evangelical Christians and others ultra devout, the mental gymnastics they did to make President Obama come out as the Antichrist... I wonder if they are being willfully ignorant, or never believed the narrative in the first place just found it a useful way to prey on other ignorant people's superstitions, or believe its a trick by the real Antichrist, fake news, etc.? a little mix of all of the above? but 666 Fifth Avenue? or are there some that are actually freaked out about it but aren't making a fuss, holding back saying anything, because it's more important Trump is "their guy"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zorral Posted July 21, 2017 Share Posted July 21, 2017 So now the romperitler's fellas are investigating Meuller's fellas to discredit the Russian investigation. Good luck w/dat. New York Times, behind paywall so url not link: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/20/us/politics/donald-trump-robert-mueller-russia-investigation.html? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongRider Posted July 21, 2017 Share Posted July 21, 2017 Of course he is. I like how he's added himself to the list of possible pardonee's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martell Spy Posted July 21, 2017 Share Posted July 21, 2017 So, OJ is getting out. How long will he be able to stay out of the news? Also, back for another sequel............................... it's Zombie Ryancare. https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/7/20/16000600/trumpcare-not-dead-yet Trumpcare still isn’t dead This is a dangerous time for complacency. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongRider Posted July 21, 2017 Share Posted July 21, 2017 5 minutes ago, Martell Spy said: So, OJ is getting out. How long will he be able to stay out of the news? Also, back for another sequel............................... it's Zombie Ryancare. https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/7/20/16000600/trumpcare-not-dead-yet Trumpcare still isn’t dead This is a dangerous time for complacency. Yup. Time to call Heller again, might add Sandoval to the list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThinkerX Posted July 21, 2017 Share Posted July 21, 2017 I was wondering when the 'Zombie Ryancare' would be linked to here. My take is, it amounts to rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic - again. Won't change anything - unless the Republicans are willing to include Democrats in these negotiations. I have seen calls for this, but I doubt the leadership is that desperate yet: http://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/325797-gop-rep-congress-must-work-on-bipartisan-healthcare-bill I wonder, though... Say, the Republicans, KNOWING they can't do it alone, AND facing serious opposition from their base for the 'death-care' schemes so far... - suppose they cooperated with the Democrats just enough to fix the more critical issues with the ACA (and there are plenty of things that desperately need fixing), then took credit for putting forth a better health care package for the people while simultaneously blaming the democrats for the original mess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martell Spy Posted July 21, 2017 Share Posted July 21, 2017 Quote Say, the Republicans, KNOWING they can't do it alone, AND facing serious opposition from their base for the 'death-care' schemes so far... - suppose they cooperated with the Democrats just enough to fix the more critical issues with the ACA (and there are plenty of things that desperately need fixing), then took credit for putting forth a better health care package for the people while simultaneously blaming the democrats for the original mess. Don't think they can, even if some of them want to. The Turtle for some reason is intensely committed to Ryan's kill the poor scheme. I've been pretty puzzled why he won't change the core part of this awful bill. Perhaps just his well known hatred of Harry Reid is causing this. The best theory I have seen though is that while he is very skilled at selling legislation and twisting arms, he lacks policy imagination when it comes to writing legislation. This and because Trump thinks it's a great idea are why we are stuck with this undead creature. There may be arrogance involved as well, since he successfully stole a SC seat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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