The Unholy Consult Post-Release SPOILER THREAD II

[Kalbear]

1 minute ago, Hello World said:

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Sorry, don't know how to remove that on my phone. Does anyone know if any of the Bakker threads were lost when the forum went down a couple of years ago? Because I'm trying to find an old post of mine but I can't. 

Probably some? There were about two months of posts which were lost. Most of the old threads are around, though chances are good you're not linked to them directly via your profile; I know I'm not. 

[jurble]

Yeah, you have to use Google search to find them.  I went through bits of TJE #1 , #2 and #3 to see if anyone had any theories that came true. 

[Hello World]

Too bad. I remembered having an argument with someone about Mimara being a kind of virgin Mary and I wanted to rub it in... But now I can't. 

[jurble]

Speaking of that, let's do a more thorough awards show for predictions!

Kcf guesses correctly the mysterious guy at the start of TJE was an agent of Kellhus!

 

Polishgenius suspects the first WLW is a fake and Sorweel is the real one.  Not entirely correct, both are real, but he's correct that Sorweel is the WLW as well!

 

Jon AS notes the Ordeal exists only to convey the sorcerers.

That gets noted straight up in the text in TGO, I think.

Giving up now on page 10 of TJE #1.  Too much effort and the broken formatting burns my eyes!

[Hello World]

The first link doesn't work, and I can't believe no one has asked Bakker if Leweth is still alive yet... 

[Corvinus85]

A brief review

For the most part I liked the book. I would say that what happened to the Ordeal on the march across Agongorea was a bit too much, in description at least. For the first time, I was just as disgusted in reading something as I can be when watching a scene of gore on TV.

On how the book ended, I was somewhat surprised, but then thinking about the series title, and what Kellhus has represented to Akka from the beginning, the Harbinger, I realized that it had to happen this way. So, I am in no way upset about how the book ended, and if Bakker decides that he’s done, it wouldn’t be a totally bad ending either; a terribly grim one, sure, with lots of questions, but not bad. Because the way things stand now, humanity has a far lesser chance of surviving the 2^nd Apocalypse. The Whirlwind and the Horde can advance all the way to the Three Seas virtually unopposed – no High Norsirai this time, the Nonmen are nearly extinct, and the Three Seas are in turmoil, with the crème of their military might destroyed, and the Schools greatly weakened. Even Zeum is probably in turmoil by now, with the demon in Malowebi’s body going there to destroy the ruling dynasty. And who the hell knows where the Heron Spear ended up; probably buried in the massive pile of Sranc bodies.

A few things that I don’t particularly like about Bakker’s style – a bit too much ambiguity in describing events; he likes to spin the reader’s head, and I often find myself saying WTF out loud. He also tends to build up characters, suggest that they will do something, or be part of something momentous, and then give them an inglorious ending. He did this to Sorweel in this book. (Maithanet and Fanayal in previous books). Sometimes this is ok, but if often leaves me unsatisfied.

One great thing about these books is the layers upon layers of mysteries, which are slowly revealed. This last entry certainly didn’t disappoint in that regard. I also see an interesting pattern emerging. The series’ central figure is Kellhus, and in each of the individual series (Prince of Nothing, Aspect-Emperor), his plot goes full circle, as at the end he confronts his own past, the Dûnyain. Bakker has created a character who is so powerful that readers could easily dislike just because of his abilities; a veritable Superman who cannot be defeated by mundane obstacles. But Bakker also knows how to gives his Superman the right adversaries, characters that could match Kellhus in abilities.

 

Questions, theories & predictions (divided by sections and placed in spoilers because of post length)

Now for the head-spinning stuff, the biggest one, the main twist, is about Kellhus and Ajokli. WTF?

Spoiler

 

First, I don’t really know who was in possession of whom. As I read the book, I kept thinking that there must be something important about the other Decapitant. I kept thinking that maybe Kellhus was reserving that head for another character, Akka most likely, or that it was already the head of someone important, maybe Sorweel’s father. It was interesting that, to everyone, the Decapitants appeared as they seemed to be, two ugly, demonic heads; everyone that is, except Kelmo, who saw Malowebi’s head, but Bakker purposefully did not say what Kelmo saw in the other head, if he even took a good look at it. (Or I missed something)

So, when the big reveal happens, I don’t know who is talking. Is it still Kellhus, and the other Decapitant is Ajokli, or is it Ajokli in Kellhus’s body, and the other Decapitant is Kellhus? As this sinks in, I would say that at the very end, it was Ajokli controlling the body, because the body got destroyed, and if the series should continue, I really don’t see this being the end of Kellhus. Throughout Malowebi’s POV, it was heavily implied one could return to their normal state, if their head is reunited with their body (or a different body). But someone is going to have to find the pillar of salt, and retrieve the head.

Continuing this line of thought, when did Ajokli take hold? There are three possibilities:

1. Before the events in the Aspect-Emperor series –  basically when Kellhus went to Hell, for reasons not yet truly revealed. Kellhus tells the Mutilated that his soul is safe, that he struck a deal with the Pit, and Malowebi is terrified when he realizes that Ajokli had a found a way to physically enter the world. Going back to the Judging Eye, when we first meet Kelmo, he shares a laugh with the idol of Ajokli. From Kelmo’s perspective, this moment has to do with him being the secret master of the palace; but maybe Ajokli was really laughing in that scene, and he was laughing because he had deceived everyone, and was inhabiting Kellhus’s body.
2. During the march of the Great Ordeal – there is that whole head on a pole BS; so maybe when Kellhus started re-educating Proyas, he also doing his deal with Ajokli. From Malowebi’s POV, we know that Kellhus/Ajokli can communicate with the Decapitants. Going back to #1 with this, if Ajokli was in control from the start, he was still in communion with Kellhus who was giving him info that Ajokli himself did not discern. Ajokli, being a god, and the prince of deceit, could easily deceive any normal person. With Kellhus’s help, he could, maybe, deceive the Anasûrimbor kids, as well.
3. Right there at the end, when Kellhus entered Golgotterath and confronted the other Dûnyain. Golgotterath is revealed to be a topoi. The Consult inadvertently turned Golgotterath in a topoi because of all the souls they fed to the Carapace to create the weapon they needed to shut the world from Hell. Irony! The clue for Ajokli taking hold only at this stage lies in what happened between Iyokus and the demon Kalapiol (spelling?); furthermore, reading the Appendix entry on Decapitants also reveals a story, which I missed if it was written in any of the books, about a guy witnessing Kellhus taking his head off, and putting it back on, repeatedly, in the desert on the Battle Plain, another topoi. So I think there was a constant conflict between Kellhus and Ajokli, won by Ajokli only at the end because of the location. And then lost by him when the body was destroyed.

 

Regarding Kelmomas – there is a feeling of deus ex with Kelmo at the end of this book, so I hope Bakker plans to answer these questions in future books (or, the answers are already there, and I missed them).

Spoiler

 

How is it that Kelmo is invisible to Ajokli, and implicitly the other gods? And why can he break through the glamor created by godly power and demonic magic and see the truth of a face? Of course, these questions could be irrelevant now that Kelmo is the No-God.

How did Kelmo get in the Golden Room? I would find it incredibly unrealistic, even for his character, if he somehow managed to sneak in through the whole battlefield, and get past defenses protected by Wards. I believe that the skin-spy he ran into took him to Golgotterath, but then something happened (the distractions of battle), and he “escaped supervision” and snuck into the Golden Room. But if this is the case, why wasn’t he presented to the Dûnyain, who would have instantly known who he was, and they could have used him right away, and not wait for Kellhus to appear.

 

Regarding Sorweel – initially I was disappointed how he just died, and not only that, but after everything he’s been through and done, he fully transforms into the White-Luck Warrior, and fails. Thinking a bit more about Sorweel, I would say that his role had more to do with Serwa. I think he may have had a positive influence of her, helped her develop the human side she inherited from Esmi. One question – did he go to hell or heaven? That last bit suggests that Yatwer took him in her embrace, but for good or bad, I don’t know.

On Serwa and Kayûtas – another cliffhanger is whether these two survived. I can’t see Bakker killing either of the two off page, and the last we see of them is Kayûtas carrying his sister’s body. Bakker using the word “body” can imply that she is dead, but I’m not sure. But the bigger question is, did Kayûtas betray Serwa? Who shot that Chorae in her hand? It seems that she miscounted, but I doubt it, I think it came from somewhere she didn’t expect. Also, just before that moment, she yelled for Kayûtas to come; the plan was probably to have Kayûtas and his forces come in and overwhelm Skuthula, once all the Chorae-bearing Usranc were dead.

Regarding the reveal of the Ark, the Inchoroi, and the Dunsult.

Spoiler

I liked that the Ark is revealed to have a massive AI, I’m not surprised by that. I wish more info would have been given on the Inverse Fire; so it’s a portal that lets you see the Outside, but how was it made? Did the Inchoroi make it, or did their creators make it? And yes, interesting reveal about the Inchoroi. At this point, I theorize that the creators of the Inchoroi were also human (Earth humans maybe) and this whole subject is an allegory to the dangers of technology run amok, and what a society can become, if it only values technological advancement. I’m also thinking that the Dûnyain principles came to be because of the Ark. Somehow, a group of early humans that migrated to Ëarwa found a message that detailed the principles of the Tenke, and took it to heart. Therefore, the implication would that the Dûnyain built the Ark, and thus are also responsible for the damnation of all humanity. One thing that could have been better if the Dunsult had been represented by a son of Kellhus. Why was Aurax such a whipped dog, while his bro was still Horde-General? Was he always broken, or did the Dunsult break him?

One small prediction I have regarding future books. Lil Moe will lead the Scylvendi on a different path, fighting for humanity, rather than against. This is simply a logical conclusion on my part – militarily speaking, the Three Seas are quite screwed, as I mentioned above, so I predict the Scylvendi will become humanity’s champions. Or Bakker could just kill off everybody, and be done with.

Another prediction/theory I have regarding the No-God. My opinion is that the way to truly use the No-God is to throw him/it in the Outside. If he is an absence to the gods, then his presence in the Outside could very well fuck them, erase them from existence, and thus souls would be safe from their torment. Kellhus may do this.

Other questions:

Spoiler

 

What is the connection with the False Sun? I read that story a few months ago, and I cannot think of anything significant.

So Nau-Cayûti was fed to the Carapace and thus the first iteration of the No-God came to be. But I thought it was mentioned that Nau-Cayûti was betrayed and murdered by his wife. Did he get out of the Ark when he and Seswatha snuck in to steal the Heron Spear?

I didn’t understand why the Mysunsai Grandmaster decided to attack the Quya. (The arrival of the Quya was an awesome scene, btw). Was he just a dickhead? There was a line there about him having a temper, but still…

 

 

[redeagl]

2 hours ago, Kalbear said:

Well, apparently literally no one got a major important revelation about the Consult, so...yeah. 

This was despite having no less than FOUR beta readers. 

That's not what I meant. She said that Akokli was a deus ex machina........

[redeagl]

2 hours ago, Kalbear said:

Yeah, that's what I took from it.

In which case this was essentially all something of a Titirga trap. Shae lures Kellhus in with the promise of Dunyain thinkers and the nuke, either because he is now DunShae (or ShaeYain?) or because he thinks Kellhus will come to that conclusion. He flatters Kellhus into thinking that he will become the No-God and all of this was for his benefit - which might work, but it is also just one of many options for dealing with Kellhus. DunShae's real ace in the hole is the one he's been watching via skin-spies for a long time - Kelmomas. He also suspects Kelmomas will work (or any Anasurimbor might work - the prophecies true and false) so it works out. 

But the plan was always to kill Kellhus in one form or another - by putting him in the Sarcophagus, or choraeing him with 100 skin spies, or using his stronger magic, or confusing him with Kelmomas. This was just the trap to bring him in. And just like Kellhus says he's like Titirga, he falls for a fairly simple ruse. 

I guess that's fine, but it needed a lot more work to really sell, and missing that out entirely as even an option means that at best it's interesting but trivial behavior. DunShae or DunSult don't end up mattering that much; what ends up mattering more is trying to figure out if this was intended or accidental, and that's just not that clear.

Love that theory. It would make the original Consult look a bit more powerful than what we got ( which Bakker kept hinting at in both the TSA thread and the AMA.)

[Kalbear]

51 minutes ago, redeagl said:

That's not what I meant. She said that Akokli was a deus ex machina........

Ajokli isn't? I mean, when you're structurally saying that everything is ambiguous and deliberately so, and you are making things happen with said ambiguity and they happen for reasons unknown, virtually everything is deus ex machina. Ajokli is no different; we got very little hint that Kellhus was like this for a long time, virtually nothing about the decapitants until the last book, we still don't know what the deal was with Kellhus or even what his plan was...how is it not?

50 minutes ago, redeagl said:

Love that theory. It would make the original Consult look a bit more powerful than what we got ( which Bakker kept hinting at in both the TSA thread and the AMA.)

Yeah, it would make them significantly more impressive (though Aurang and Mek both went down stupid hard, and Aurax groveling is kind of weaksauce), but again the problem is that it wasn't sold nearly well enough to me. That we are now even wondering if it is Shae in the DunSult and have no real textual proof of this (much less any extratextual proof) makes this a failure given that the book is The Unholy Consult. 

[Kalbear]

1 hour ago, Corvinus said:

 

Now for the head-spinning stuff, the biggest one, the main twist, is about Kellhus and Ajokli. WTF?

 

No one knows. My guess is that Ajokli has been guiding Kellhus since TWP. No one has asked Bakker this, once, which seems really stupid, but whatever.

1 hour ago, Corvinus said:

 

Regarding Kelmomas – there is a feeling of deus ex with Kelmo at the end of this book, so I hope Bakker plans to answer these questions in future books (or, the answers are already there, and I missed them).

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How is it that Kelmo is invisible to Ajokli, and implicitly the other gods? And why can he break through the glamor created by godly power and demonic magic and see the truth of a face? Of course, these questions could be irrelevant now that Kelmo is the No-God.

How did Kelmo get in the Golden Room? I would find it incredibly unrealistic, even for his character, if he somehow managed to sneak in through the whole battlefield, and get past defenses protected by Wards. I believe that the skin-spy he ran into took him to Golgotterath, but then something happened (the distractions of battle), and he “escaped supervision” and snuck into the Golden Room. But if this is the case, why wasn’t he presented to the Dûnyain, who would have instantly known who he was, and they could have used him right away, and not wait for Kellhus to appear.

 

 

This has been answered and then confirmed by Bakker.

Mimara always has had the Judging Eye despite not always being pregnant, and she has it both before she's pregnant and after she has her babies. She has it because she always will get it, and she is destined to get it. Similarly, Kelmomas is invisible to the gods because he is destined to be the No-God, he is always going to exist past the point where the Outside stops existing, and thus will always be something that cannot be seen by the gods. 

He can break through and see things that others can't because the god powers only work by influencing things the gods know about. And the gods literally have no idea about Kelmomas, and never have. They cannot make him see the right thing. The glamour requires both a subject and an object, and he can never be a subject.

As to how Kelmomas got into the room - first he frees himself with the file Esme gives him. Then he ends up on the other side of the crater, and runs into (and kills) a Scylvendi scout. We get that scout's pov. We then have him run into a skin-spy that is dressed all in black (just like the Golden Room ones) which is disguised as Esme, and tells him that she'll be whatever he needs. Somehow they go from there through THE ENTIRE FUCKING ORDEAL AND WAR and end up in the Golden room without a single person noticing. 

My fanwank here is that the DunSult (or the DunShae) had skin-spies monitoring all of the Anasurimbors, because they believed the prophecy that an Anasurimbor was necessary for the No-God. They didn't know which one, though, so they had to make sure all of them survived. The skin-spies were tasked with ensuring their safety and hopefully their entrance into the Golden Room. This one took Kelmomas there, just in case Kellhus didn't pan out. Alternately, DunShae knew that Kelmomas was inivisible to the gods and knew that he was a key to defeating Kellhus, and planned on getting him at some point. 

 

[Kalbear]

1 hour ago, Corvinus said:

Regarding Sorweel – initially I was disappointed how he just died, and not only that, but after everything he’s been through and done, he fully transforms into the White-Luck Warrior, and fails. Thinking a bit more about Sorweel, I would say that his role had more to do with Serwa. I think he may have had a positive influence of her, helped her develop the human side she inherited from Esmi. One question – did he go to hell or heaven? That last bit suggests that Yatwer took him in her embrace, but for good or bad, I don’t know.

There's debate on whether being 'redeemed' by the outside entities is good or bad. I tend to think it's not that great, but it's better than being random ciphrang buttfloss. Others are described as being taken by Gilgaol and the like.

1 hour ago, Corvinus said:

On Serwa and Kayûtas – another cliffhanger is whether these two survived. I can’t see Bakker killing either of the two off page, and the last we see of them is Kayûtas carrying his sister’s body. Bakker using the word “body” can imply that she is dead, but I’m not sure. But the bigger question is, did Kayûtas betray Serwa? Who shot that Chorae in her hand? It seems that she miscounted, but I doubt it, I think it came from somewhere she didn’t expect. Also, just before that moment, she yelled for Kayûtas to come; the plan was probably to have Kayûtas and his forces come in and overwhelm Skuthula, once all the Chorae-bearing Usranc were dead.

Common interpretation is that the chorae was the one hidden in Sorweel's assassin pouch and brought with Kelmomas to the Golden Room, and then used to dispatch Serwa. 

 

[Kalbear]

The Inverse Fire has a bit of a good entry in the appendix. It was made prior to the Inchoroi, was used as a goad to ensure that they were bound to the task at hand, and originally was one of the ways that the Progentior race determined that they were totally fucked. 

The Dunyain, per Bakker, did not descend from anything like Inchoroi or Inchoroi principles. he could be lying though.

Aurax might be putting on a show for Kellhus. I'm starting to buy that as a viewpoint, especially if the DunSult is Shae. 

I just don't give a single shit about little Moe or the Scylvendi now that Cnaiur is gone. Not one solitary shit. 

As to the No-God - my prediction is that we've gotten about as much information as we're going to get about it, and that is that. Bakker likes his ambiguity.

The False Sun shows off how smart Shae is, shows the actual Inverse Fire and how important it is, and that's about it.

Nau-Cayuti being betrayed and murdered by his wife was what historians say happened, but apparently that wasn't the case. He was poisoned, buried, left for dead, and then exhumed by the Consult. And then fed to the Sarcophagus. 

The grandmaster attacked the Quya because reasons. Maybe he thought they were assholes. Maybe he thought that they were erratics. I have really no idea, but it rang completely stupid and pointless. 

[Hello World]

Quote

But recently, on the Second Apocalypse Forum people kept referring to something called the 'Baby Kellhus' theory, and though I have no damn idea what they're on about, I find it shocking and absurd

I'm starting to think the baby Kellhus theory is true...

[jurble]

Nah, Bakker's reply makes it seem like he never even considered Baby Kellhus:

Quote

 

That is the creepiest, coolest thing I've heard all day! Shades of Alia!

 

[Hello World]

It makes it seem like that's what he wants you to think. 

[Darth Richard II]

8 minutes ago, Ajûrbkli said:

Nah, Bakker's reply makes it seem like he never even considered Baby Kellhus:

 

Yeah but Bakker also clearly has no idea wtf he's doing anymore, so who the hell knows.

[Darth Richard II]

4 hours ago, Kalbear said:

Well, apparently literally no one got a major important revelation about the Consult, so...yeah. 

This was despite having no less than FOUR beta readers. 

Yeah this pisses me off, and doesn't make me very hopeful for the future of this series.

[jurble]

Quote

Think of the gradual possession suffered by Sorweel whilst wearing the Amiolas. Kellhus knew something was up, but the 10-sided die was cast. The great weakness of the Dunyain is the weakness discovered by Moenghus. For all the power of their intellect, their spirit is actually quite weak.

So Bakker says Kellhus wasn't aware of his possession.  And he confirms once more that the spirits of the Dunyain are weak (and so perfect for Shae).

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

50 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Ajokli isn't? I mean, when you're structurally saying that everything is ambiguous and deliberately so, and you are making things happen with said ambiguity and they happen for reasons unknown, virtually everything is deus ex machina. Ajokli is no different; we got very little hint that Kellhus was like this for a long time, virtually nothing about the decapitants until the last book, we still don't know what the deal was with Kellhus or even what his plan was...how is it not?

Yeah, it would make them significantly more impressive (though Aurang and Mek both went down stupid hard, and Aurax groveling is kind of weaksauce), but again the problem is that it wasn't sold nearly well enough to me. That we are now even wondering if it is Shae in the DunSult and have no real textual proof of this (much less any extratextual proof) makes this a failure given that the book is The Unholy Consult. 

Bakker, said in the AMA and the Q&A at SA that Kellhus's plan was to destroy the Consult and save Mankind. He also said that the closer Kellhus got to Golgottereath, that he stated to suspe t something was amiss. He didnt say what, but i presume it involves Ajokli.

Also, he stated that he woukd like to write a canonical of Kellhus throughout TAE. Show us exacy what his plans were and how they were planned out. Which i think would be cool. Hell, he could even do it as flashbacks in the next series, that would be nice and offer clarification on alot i imagine.

[Valandil]

23 minutes ago, Ajûrbkli said:

Nah, Bakker's reply makes it seem like he never even considered Baby Kellhus:

 

Sure, he never though of it. All the foreshadowing, the tapestry, the blinding holiness of mim's child, the fact she never saw kelhus with judging eye, the fact that kelhus has been mastering noomancy, the dune inspiration with its fully sentient aware babies etc etc etc. it never occurred to him that people would make that link. His faux shocked response almost confirms it!