The Unholy Consult Post-Release SPOILER THREAD II

[Hello World]

One thing I never got is why would Shae die resisting the Mutilated when he should have allied with them instead, just like Aurang and Aurax and Mek did. Seems really unlikely that after spending thousands of years trying to raise the No-God he would die instead letting the Dunyain help him do it. 

[jurble]

4 hours ago, Sheep the Evicted said:

Like I said to Jurble on the reddit thread (i lost track of his name changes is Jurble Hello World or Aojokli ?) Im not buying Shae being the Dunyain theory. If they were all really sharing one soul one of the Mutilated would have turned to the others and explained what was going on when Aokojli revealed himself. But there is clearly SOMETHING going on there.

 

Soy jurble.  Shae possessing the Mutilated doesn't require the Mutilated lack their own identities or ability to think.  Normal humans have much stronger spirits than the Dunyain and so the wretches must be near death and incapable of independent thought.  But the Mutilated are already 'denuded souls' and weak (Bakker straight up said in the AMA that Dunyain have weak spirits).  So they can still think independently if Shae requires them too and use their Dunyain training.

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

@Kalbear, i can see your side but I cant see this stuff just coming out of nowhere. The Kelmommas part that everyone points to, didnt even sirprise me one bit at that point that he show up and fuck shit up. Its what he does. I guess theres a case to be made and if it bothers some, then so be it. 

Not the ending i was hoping for, at all. But, it also wasnt one that suprised me either. The No-God walked. We've been conditioned to see that happen since book 1 and many predicted it. Kellhus i have never really took as the true protagonist, that would be Akka. I just always had hopes that Kellhus would fulfill the TT and actually save mankind. I agree with @.H. that Kellhus probably thought he could dominate and change hell through the Diamos. Im not even sure he expected to be actually possessed by Ajokli in the Golden Room. Whats actually funny is Ajokli cant find him and we can have the Moe convo all over again with the same results...nothing. Unless, Bakker actually does a conical and tells us everything through Kellhus. Which i would love. Doubt we ever see it though.

As i said, my expectations for TNG is for humanity to pull through and, in my mind, thats the only way i coukd even enjoy it. Id undoubtedly read it, but i dont think reading about the end of the world and everyone losing would be very fulfilling. But as Bakker says, thats says more about me and how i percieve meaning than how he writes...i guess.

[Caligula_K3]

11 hours ago, Faint said:

This is purely my own suspicion but I do think there is something of a correlation relating to how satisfied one was with the last book tied to whether a reader perceives (perceived?) Kellhus as the protagonist of the story or whether instead they though that title belonged to Achamian.  I have always been of the latter group and nothing Bakker did in the The Unholy Consult was of much surprise to me (excepting, perhaps, the seemingly continued importance of Esmenet).  

In other words, much of the disappointment with Bakker seems to be an outgrowth of the fact that so many readers had their entire conceptions of the story intertwined with Kellhus as the evil genius who was controlling all events, and now that that this theory has been obliterated, they feel adrift of the whole enterprise.  What is more, this group of people -- at least as evidenced by the online forums where this series is much discussed -- seems to be the majority of readers.

Nowhere is this more apparent than in the fact that Kellhus remains the central topic of discussion here even though his cause ended in total irrelevancy and is not central to the conclusion of the story, whereas Achamian, Mimara, and Esmenet (maybe even Kayûtas and Serwa), who do factor going forward, are completely ignored. 

It's precisely because I viewed Mimara/Achamian/Esmenet/Sorweel as the major protagonists of this series that this last book  fell short for me. Don't get me wrong, I'm disappointed that Kellhus' motives are still unknown after four long books, since his purpose was kind of the central mystery of this series. But I'd be a lot more willing to forgive the flaws of this book and continue reading TSA if these four characters had done anything important or interesting in this book after so much build-up and so many pages dedicated to them. It's pretty shoddy writing to essentially abandon all of your protagonists in the last book of a series and to instead focus on pages-upon-pages of Sranc sex. And it's not a coincidence that the best parts of this book were the few that did focus on these characters, like the Mimara/Esmenet reunion or Achamian and Proyas and Kellhus. If Bakker had given us more meat in those storylines and character acs (see what I did there?), I'm sure there would be a lot more discussion of them.

 

[Hello World]

What's more troubling and sad was that, as someone else said, Bakker added four chapter to TUC after splitting it from TGO, and those 4 chapters must have been in the cannibal ordeal arc. Instead, he should have cut out the new glossary, the Atrocity Tales, those 4 chapters and published it as one book with TGO. I even remember him saying back then that fitting in the new EG was the reason the book was split.

[Lies And Perfidy]

4 minutes ago, Caligula_K3 said:

It's precisely because I viewed Mimara/Achamian/Esmenet/Sorweel as the major protagonists of this series that this last book  fell short for me.

Yeah, exactly. If anything, through the first three books TAE felt more focused on the stories of individual people like those four than did PoN. The Ordeal was at a greater remove than the Holy War, and as obviously all-important as it was in the setting, in the story frame it was more of a backdrop. After all the time spent on Akka & Mimara's quest, Sorweel's growrth, and Esmenet's struggle to rule, TUC totally sidelined them in favor of overlapping gambit pileups by semi-established supernatural entities, with a sideline of Proyas starring in the worst Coen Brothers movie ever.

[jurble]

Bakker is back with more.

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Thanks Z. You've got to many Qs to realistically answer, but I can clear up a couple of things.

The Consult was obsessed because of Moenghus's discovery of their skin-spies. No part of Earwa's native population enjoys any 'technological advantage' in any gunpowdery sense. And lastly, it's not the blood that enables the Carapace, its the ability of the brain to functionally emulate that of an original Insertant.

So Nau-Cayuti and Kelmomas (and the other Anasurimbor, presumably due to Nonman heritage) emulate Insertants, but in this response he states that the Inchoroi are not future Earthlings.  Although, he might be playing with semantics there, as the Inchoroi might be a product of future Earthlings.  Also Inrilatas wouldn't have worked, so apparently not every Anasurimbor works?  And apparently the entire reason Kellhus goaded Achamian was "to witness his fidelity.":  What.

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Thank you distantdiscord: Kellhus became less Kellhus and more Ajokli the nearer he came to Golgotterath. He failed to execute on the Thousandfold Thought because he took the stability of his personal identity for granted.

Ajokli ruined everything apparently.

re: why he didn't see Esmenet freeing Kelmomas

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Because he's under spiritual duress, while planning to assault the most dread fortress that ever existed.

The God in Kellhus' visions:

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Ajokli seems a safe supposition.

whether it was Gilgaol or Ajokli that appeared to Celmomas

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4) The Trickster is as eternal as any of the other Gods.

when Kellhus was first possessed

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That which comes after determines what comes before.

So Kellhus was possessed the entire series.  Analogous to li'l Kel and Mimara.

 

So, uh... it's all Ajokli's fault and Ajokli is even behind Kellhus' failures to notice obvious shit.  And Kellhus didn't even realize he was possessed and losing himself to Ajokli, which is weird given the whole struck treaties line.  I'm not sure how we were supposed to realize this with just the text.

[Hello World]

What if Bakker goes for another "subversion" (these things are starting to get tiresome) of the messiah role this time and makes Mimara's kid a "bad guy" in some way and he joins the Consult?

[Hello World]

2 minutes ago, Ajûrbkli said:

re: why he didn't see Esmenet freeing Kelmomas

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Because he's under spiritual duress, while planning to assault the most dread fortress that ever existed.

 

Wut?

[jurble]

The issue with Jesus joining the Consult is that Jesus only exists because God wants him to exist.  Mimara only possesses the Judging Eye because God wants her to possess the Judging Eye.  Unlike the Gods, God doesn't suffer any limitations, so everything It does, everything It intends, occurs as It wants it to.  So God sending the messiah for no purpose (as the Consult will likely win without the messiah) doesn't fit, unless the Consult wouldn't win without him and God does want the Consult to win.

But we have no idea what God wants.  God, as far as we know, doesn't have any personality in the manner of the Hundred.  Moreover, we've been told God needs prophets to understand the world - it's so far beyond mortality that it apparently needs people like Mimara to experience the world for it (Mimara at one point thought the Eye doesn't care, but she does).  So the God sends Jesus in response to Mimara.  And since Mimara doesn't want the world to fall to the Consult, God with its all-powerful all-seeing shenanigans won't let it happen via Jesus.

 

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Hi DankKnight. In intercessory faiths special dispensations can always be granted, so long as you know the right people, like Psatma Nannaferi. This is why the priestly castes wield the influence they do, and why ancestor lists possess so much religious importance. The Gods are nothing if not political.

So the Gods can straight up save anyone no matter how many sins they've accumulated.  So why does the Judging Eye even exist? 

 

[Hello World]

Damn, I've spent all these years thinking of conspiratorial reasons why Moenghus senior made some of the mistakes that he did and now Kellhus, and the answers all along were things like well, he just didn't consider it, he missed that, and he was distracted.

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

4 minutes ago, Hello World said:

Damn, I've spent all these years thinking of conspiratorial reasons why Moenghus senior made some of the mistakes that he did and now Kellhus, and the answers all along were things like well, he just didn't consider it, he missed that, and he was distracted.

Or, we dont see things that are very near to us, those are the hardest. I get it. I got the same type of answer. But, Bakker is using this as an extension of his philosophical ttheories and what you said are what they are all about. So, does that seem so suprising? Its just telling you how much meaning means to you, after all.

[Darth Richard II]

I find the fact that people are still speculating after Bakker pretty much said all that speculation over the years had no point to be quite funny.

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

16 hours ago, redeagl said:

Can you post the quote when he specifically said that he is working on Crabicus chapters? 

This from the Reddit AMA when asked what he has been writing lately.

The next series is, and always has been, entitled

 The No-God.

There's the matter of the last surviving full Dunyain Anasurimbor on the loose--that's what's been commanding my attention most these days.

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

11 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said:

I find the fact that people are still speculating after Bakker pretty much said all that speculation over the years had no point to be quite funny.

Where did he say it had no point?

[Kalbear]

9 hours ago, Damelon said:

Kellhus is not omnipotent, despite fans clamoring. That should have been clear by now. I'm not sure what you expect, Kalbear. You find Kelmomas plus Skin-spy traveling to Golgotterath across the battlefield implausible, - rightly so -, another option that is hinted at you find implausible as well. Did you expect RSB drawing out a map for you, connecting the dots that one might have missed? Was that the impression you got from pre-TUC installments?

Not at all. 

I didn't find it exactly implausible - I found the transition jarring, and not particularly fleshed out. As an example, let's say that instead of Kelmomas showing up in the Golden Room to thwart Kellhus it turned out to be Cnaiur. Thematically it would make sense, and we know Cnaiur is there, and he's even in the company of a skin spy for a while - but it would still be really weird to have him show up there all of a sudden. 

Same thing with Kelmomas. Based on other reviews and comments, many didn't even catch that it was Kelmomas who was talking with the Scylvendi scout, and they were baffled that he just showed up. Many - including @lokisnow - thought that Kelmomas killed Kellhus. This isn't 'connecting the dots' - this is a failure to be clear in writing and understanding how to tell a story. It's one thing to skip a passport scene where you know how to travel from, say, Momemn to another city nearby; it's quite another to skip the part where the skin spy and the 8 year old somehow manage to get into the great Ark. 

This, IMO, is what a good editor can do. They can suggest 'can you put in a one-paragraph bit about Kelmomas traveling in the tunnel?' or 'can you make it really clear that the Scylvendi is killed by Kelmomas?' And yeah, you can counter that by saying that it should be a surprise, in which case put it in after the big reveal (say, when Malowebi thinks back to what just happened).

9 hours ago, Damelon said:

Kelmomas is Dunyain and the No-God, so who knows what he can or cannot, will or will not do. For me, it was plausible enough and satisfactory. YMMV. I appreciate your passionate posting. I also am glad to read a series, including TUC, that challenges me.

It's not particularly challenging to have to come up with basic things like 'how did this person cross an area'. Ajokli's revelation was the kind of good challenge that many like (similar to the Red Wedding, in that many pieces were laid out but it was hard to tell what they meant). The DunSult wasn't as good, especially if it turns out that they're Shae. But 'using a tunnel' isn't a challenge to the reader; point of fact, we still don't know that this is how it happened. We can guess, but we don't know for sure, and that's not challenging - that's a simple detail that was left out and the narrative lost clarity. 

Similarly, with Kelmomas allowed to be alive and be brought by Esme and brought into the camp and Kellhus never actually killing him - these things are not super plausible because of the lack of setup. We are told that Kellhus loves Esme, but we don't see it. We are told that he thinks he'd lose Esme if he had killed Kelmomas, but we don't see it nor do we see the importance all that well (especially after Kelmomas kills Theliopia). This isn't a matter of Kellhus being fallible or not - it's a big stretch of odd contrivances that make it hard to suspend disbelief in order to get to a certain point. Having earlier Kellhus PoVs would have helped this tremendously, IMO. 

[Kalbear]

1 hour ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

@Kalbear, i can see your side but I cant see this stuff just coming out of nowhere. The Kelmommas part that everyone points to, didnt even sirprise me one bit at that point that he show up and fuck shit up. Its what he does. I guess theres a case to be made and if it bothers some, then so be it. 

If you think that 'shows up and fucks things up' isn't Deus Ex Machina, I'm not sure what is. That's sort of the point. If your expectation is that against all odds he's going to appear and blow everything to hell, regardless of narrative plausibility, well, you've kind of proven your arguer's point.

Also, point of fact, @Bolivar is here too; you should probably argue with him directly instead of using us as his proxies. 

1 hour ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

As i said, my expectations for TNG is for humanity to pull through and, in my mind, thats the only way i coukd even enjoy it. Id undoubtedly read it, but i dont think reading about the end of the world and everyone losing would be very fulfilling. But as Bakker says, thats says more about me and how i percieve meaning than how he writes...i guess.

Well, it's about both, and what your goals are. If your goals are to read for enjoyment chances are good that isn't on the table as much. Especially if you need to justify the sunk cost of reading prior books and discussing things. If Bakker's goal is to actually be considered a good author, having enjoyable or at least interesting books is right up there; there are very few great authors that write books which people don't actually enjoy. (though at this point I think he's going the Ayn Rand thing, where he'll have a bunch of very zealous people following his stuff because they read it when they were 17). 

That being said, what does 'humanity pulling through' mean? We know the gods are basically done, at some point at least, so either the relationship with the souls is forever shut (the No-God victory) or it is altered so that something else replaces it (the Mimara victory). Is either particularly 'good'? In both cases, humanity survives in some way - possibly as immortal beings powered by the Tekne, mind you. In Mimara's case you have the selfless gestalt of all souls that judges humanity completely arbitrarily and ranks everyone on objective whims, so you live in a world where to be a slave is holy and to be a woman is less. 

There really aren't many other options, at least so far. Are either of those 'humanity wins'?

[Darth Richard II]

10 minutes ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

Where did he say it had no point?

Well he said everything is meant to be ambiguous and not have answers, so that kind of makes a lot of this speculation kind of pointless, doesn't it?

[jurble]

13 minutes ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

Where did he say it had no point?

I think he's referencing the fact that Bakker has said he has no idea what's going to happen in the final series.  He only planned the books up to TUC.

 

edit nvm:

2 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said:

Well he said everything is meant to be ambiguous and not have answers, so that kind of makes a lot of this speculation kind of pointless, doesn't it?

Well not literally everything.  That's the sorta flaw of his writing, there were intended ambiguities, unintended ambiguities (the nature of Kellhus' possession by Ajokli, apparently), and unintended complete obfuscations (the 'thing' everyone missed about the Consult, which I assume to be DunShae).

[lokisnow]

Just now, Kalbear said:

If you think that 'shows up and fucks things up' isn't Deus Ex Machina, I'm not sure what is. That's sort of the point. If your expectation is that against all odds he's going to appear and blow everything to hell, regardless of narrative plausibility, well, you've kind of proven your arguer's point.

Also, point of fact, @Bolivar is here too; you should probably argue with him directly instead of using us as his proxies. 

Well, it's about both, and what your goals are. If your goals are to read for enjoyment chances are good that isn't on the table as much. Especially if you need to justify the sunk cost of reading prior books and discussing things. If Bakker's goal is to actually be considered a good author, having enjoyable or at least interesting books is right up there; there are very few great authors that write books which people don't actually enjoy. (though at this point I think he's going the Ayn Rand thing, where he'll have a bunch of very zealous people following his stuff because they read it when they were 17). 

That being said, what does 'humanity pulling through' mean? We know the gods are basically done, at some point at least, so either the relationship with the souls is forever shut (the No-God victory) or it is altered so that something else replaces it (the Mimara victory). Is either particularly 'good'? In both cases, humanity survives in some way - possibly as immortal beings powered by the Tekne, mind you. In Mimara's case you have the selfless gestalt of all souls that judges humanity completely arbitrarily and ranks everyone on objective whims, so you live in a world where to be a slave is holy and to be a woman is less. 

There really aren't many other options, at least so far. Are either of those 'humanity wins'?

Yes. I was certain that Kelmomas chorae-d Kellhus, you had to quote me the passage to prove that it wasn't Kelmo.

 

I think what we needed was a kellhus POV in this book. it can be vague. Him thinking about how the nuke changed everything. Him thinking about how even though everything in TTT was converging and everything should be getting more simple and certain in TTT as possibilities are eliminated instead uncertainty was increasing and a nexis he and TTT could not see through-- like the circumfix--was manifesting more and more the closer they got to golgotterath. Have him think on this paradox, and have him ponder why it is that he sees himself and  TTT failing if he doesn't return for Kelmo and Esme. Have it so that he returns because returning is the only way he can see possibilities of success, but have him not understanding why he has to do it.

Use TTT as the goad that is moving Kellhus to bring Esme and Kelmo with him and have him confused just as the reader is confused.

***

My favorite bit from the AMA was Bakker ex-post-facto surprise to have discovered that Frodo-type characters are useful for writers, because they learn about world as the reader does. It reminds me of post TGO, with his ex-post-facto surprise that Theliopa was a good counterpoint for Kelmomas, allowing each other to bounce off each other. All basic writing stuff that he seems baffled by, character interaction and mileau introduction.  It seems as though Cnaiur + Kellhus was a happy accident, rather than the careful construction one would expect it to be (introducing the world while having two powerful characters provide checks on each other.

My other favorite bit of the AMA is that he allegedly has no recollection of the explanatory details of the Inrau sections we've wondered about. :-/ supports the kal bear theory of Bakker writing quite well.