Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Lord Varys

FIRE AND BLOOD Volume 1

Recommended Posts

23 hours ago, Yukle said:

Firstly, legendary! :) You got a reply to a decent post! :)

I am also quite pumped for more imaginary history. I have often wondered if the Dance of the Dragons really boiled down to, "We don't want a woman on the throne," or if, as I suspect, the Greens had spent years preparing for just such a moment and lots of promises were made that were just better than what the Blacks offered.

Not sure what more we'll learn about this, but my feeling is that Otto and Alicent actually had only a rather small cabal of really devoted men around them. While Viserys I yet lived the succession was clear, after all, and both Alicent and Otto and all their cronies pretended to accept and support it despite the fact that they also made it known that they would like it if the king reconsidered the matter.

We also have Otto methodically preparing his coup and Aegon II's subsequent coronation - imprisoning people, bribing others, and writing letters to people he thought would be favorable to their cause - all while the corpse of the king is rotting in his bedchamber.

In the end they quickly realize that they don't have nearly enough support. Only half of the Reach is with them, Dalton Greyjoy spits in their face, etc.

And the fact that they only make their offer to Borros Baratheon after Viserys I's death also underlines that.

One wonders when exactly Ser Tyland Lannister got on board. Only when they discussed the succession? Or was it days, weeks, months, or years before? We don't know. It would surely have been him who ensured that Lord Jason stood with the Greens.

The Blacks clearly had made no preparations - or if they did, Otto put an end to that when he imprisoned all the Blacks in the capital when the king died.

Once Rhaenyra and Daemon learn what happened, they have to make new plans.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Lord Varys

I'm not so sure. When you brought up Balerion in 48 AC as well as Jaehaerys and Alysanne at Storm's End GRRM seemed pretty dismissive. 

Anyway, I want pictures of:

The royal family.

We know GRRM had a lot of input on the nine mistresses of Aegon IV so it's clear he has specific images of historical characters and I really want to know how he imagined such impressive and infamous characters as Alyssa Velaryon and Tyanna of the Tower.

Also, dramatic historical events such as Maegor's Trial By Seven, Aegon I's coronation, Aegon II jumping from his dragon as it plummets to the ground, and Orys's duel with Argilac.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Text

Its telling that so far as we know The Heirs of the Dragon never discusses what the realm thought of Viserys I's decision.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh shit...in his blog comments, GRRM stated that the back cover statement about Daenerys's dragon eggs might just be stuff Bantam added to sell the book:

Quote

Comment:  Thank you, Mr. Martin! Can’t wait to find out the origins of Dany’s babies. And everything else in between.

GRRM:  Uh… I never said anything about Dany, that was added by Bantam. Please disregard.

Comment:  Was the part about finding out why travellers can’t go to Valyria accurate or was that an addition by them as well?

GRRM:  Hmmmm… well, I think some of the hype is overblown but that is the nature of advertising.
There are a few bits and scenes and suggestions in the text from which one can extrapolate certain things and concoct theories… but in the case of things like Valyria and the dragon eggs, it is all possible answers, not meant to be definitive.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
28 minutes ago, The Dragon Demands said:

Oh shit...in his blog comments, GRRM stated that the back cover statement about Daenerys's dragon eggs might just be stuff Bantam added to sell the book:

 

Thanks for bringing this to light. It reminds me how the publishers added the tag onto the cover of the story The Ice Dragon claiming it is set in the same world as ASOAIF. And how years ago some German (?) publisher added a blurb trying to describe the first book, and they were way off.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Thanks for bringing this to light. It reminds me how the publishers added the tag onto the cover of the story The Ice Dragon claiming it is set in the same world as ASOAIF. And how years ago some German (?) publisher added a blurb trying to describe the first book, and they were way off.

And wasn't there a proposed jacket for Dance or Winds suggesting that the Wall was in ruins? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/4/2018 at 1:26 PM, Lost Melnibonean said:

And wasn't there a proposed jacket for Dance or Winds suggesting that the Wall was in ruins? 

The dustjacket/back of book descriptions of the first three books always make me feel like the person responsible had either never read them or was told to make them as fantasy cheesy as possible. But one inaccuracy that always stood out to me, especially because it made me think ASoS would be the last book in what I thought was a trilogy, is: "an army of barbaric wildlings arrives from the outermost limits of civilization, accompanied by a horde of mythical Others..." Somehow I haven't noticed that horde of Others on my rereads.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There is also this old A Feast for Crows synopsis released by Amazon UK in 2002:

Quote

Continuing the most ambitious and imaginative epic fantasy since The Lord of the Rings

The action in Book Four of A Song of Ice and Fire begins the day after the end of A STORM OF SWORDS. While the remaining northern lords war endlessly with each other and the ironmen of the isles attack the Dreadfort, Sansa becomes a skilled player in the game of thrones with Littlefinger as her mentor, Arya a skilled assassin, and Bran a magician and shapeshifter of great power. All seek to gain revenge for the death of their parents and Robb Stark, whose head was cut off and replaced with the head of his direwolf.

Valar morghulis. All men must die, and wolves, too. Danerys trains her growing dragons and learns from Barristan the secrets of her father, her brother Rhaegar, and other matters that will culminate at Starfell. And Jon Snow is the nine-hundredth-and-ninety-eighth lord commander of the Night's Watch. The Wall is his. The night is dark, and he has King Stannis to face. The cold wind is rising, and still there are inhuman powers gathering in the north.

https://www.sffworld.com/forum/threads/the-feast-for-crows-synopsis.267/

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

While it is pretty clear that there is no chance that we see a direct connection between dragon eggs and our Daenerys Targaryen in 'Fire and Blood' it is still possible that there is some connection there on a more subtle level.

I mean, there is the chance that some ancient prophecies (the promised prince, say, or Azor Ahai stuff) might be mentioned therein, or that we get some sort of flashback to Valyria, or a report from some expedition going there in the Century of Blood, or whatever.

The idea that anybody actually travels to Valyria on screen in that book sound not very convincing, though.

On 4.5.2018 at 2:59 AM, The Grey Wolf said:

We know GRRM had a lot of input on the nine mistresses of Aegon IV so it's clear he has specific images of historical characters and I really want to know how he imagined such impressive and infamous characters as Alyssa Velaryon and Tyanna of the Tower.

Pretty sure we'll get picture of both of them. They are crucial figures in Westerosi history, after all, and Alyssa even more so than Tyanna.

On 4.5.2018 at 2:59 AM, The Grey Wolf said:

Also, dramatic historical events such as Maegor's Trial By Seven, Aegon I's coronation, Aegon II jumping from his dragon as it plummets to the ground, and Orys's duel with Argilac.

Seeing Aegon II in his various stages - the plump and greedy boy, the sullen king, the disfigured king after Rook's Rest, the nobody on Dragonstone, and the crippled king after his restoration - could also be rather interesting. We have no clue whether he ever walked again after he shattered both his legs but I actually doubt it.

On 4.5.2018 at 3:08 AM, The Grey Wolf said:

Its telling that so far as we know The Heirs of the Dragon never discusses what the realm thought of Viserys I's decision.

Well, the Realm as such wouldn't have had an opinion on the matter. Various people did. And many of those people actually swore a vow to defend Rhaenyra's succession. And even those people opposing the idea in principle - which certainly would have been numerous - may have come around to grudgingly accept it after it became clear that King Viserys wouldn't change his mind on the matter.

It is not that Aegon the Elder was some kind of great warrior or natural born leader or anything. Nobody was looking up to that guy. If Aemond had been the elder son things could have looked much different. Viserys I may have even felt compelled to name him his heir if he had been his firstborn son.

And it is very telling that the Greens felt they had to stage a coup and crown Aegon II instead of calling another Great Council to discuss the succession. They hoped to create facts and thus prevent a civil war - or make it at least only a small affair with Rhaenyra being quickly dealt with - but it didn't work. But one assumes that a pretty large number of people who would have accepted Rhaenyra as their queen if Aegon II hadn't been crowned ended up declaring for Aegon II simply because this was suddenly an option.

In that sense my guess would be that by the time of Viserys I's death the level of acceptance for a Queen Rhaenyra would have been about 70% or so, dropping to about 50% after Aegon II had been crowned. Otto and Alicent likely accepted it to go down to 20-30%, or perhaps even lower than that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Text

Re Pictures: I like your idea regarding Aegon II. It would lend pathos to his tragedy. Rhaenyra lost her sons, dragon, and second husband. Aegon II lost his wife, sons, dragon, and legs.

Re the Realm: I was referring to the lords and knights of the 7K in general. Anyway, I disagree with your assessment. The Baratheons, Starks, and Greyjoys had to be bribed before they would commit to either faction. Lord Tully and Lord Wylde both disagreed with Viserys I's decision. To me that says most of the realm was at best ambivalent about both claimants.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I hope we learn more about Aegon, son of Baelon. At this point all we know is that he lived to see his older brother crowned king. Maybe he is the "ape prince" mentioned by Axell Florent in ADWD?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

8 hours ago, The Grey Wolf said:

Re the Realm: I was referring to the lords and knights of the 7K in general. Anyway, I disagree with your assessment. The Baratheons, Starks, and Greyjoys had to be bribed before they would commit to either faction. Lord Tully and Lord Wylde both disagreed with Viserys I's decision. To me that says most of the realm was at best ambivalent about both claimants.

But that is only after there are two options. I was talking about how the Realm felt while Viserys I was still alive and there were two factions at court but a very clear ruling of the king on the succession. Once Aegon II is crowned and Rhaenyra has her coronation on Dragonstone the lords of the Realm - especially those with power and prestige - can sit back, relax, and wait what the two pretenders offer them.

But this is not how it goes while nobody knows yet that there will be a coup and the coronation of a King Aegon II.

Compare it to the situation after the death of King Robert. Everybody expected Joffrey to succeed his father because, aside from Stannis who didn't say anything aloud, everybody thought the boy was his father's son. Only when Renly and Stannis make their claims known - along with the secessionist kings Balon and Robb - are the lords of the Realm forced to pick sides. For the Stormlanders and men of the Reach Renly suddenly looks as a better alternative, but after his death they have again to choose between Stannis and Joffrey, etc.

If Aegon the Elder had accepted the rule of his sister very few people - if any at all - would have risen against her. And it is not that Aegon showed any great interest at becoming king or leading people. He seems to have been fine with his life as a pampered and lazy prince. While I don't buy Eustace's account that he didn't want to be king when they offered the crown to him, I don't think he actively worked towards seizing it. That was all Otto and Alicent's doing. 

I'm not saying that everybody accepted Rhaenyra as the heir, I'm saying it looks as if a majority had made their peace with it. That's why Otto and Alicent have to use bribes and the like early on during their coup. They have to buy and convince many people to support who would have otherwise, most likely, accepted Rhaenyra as their queen.

I mean, what do you think would have happened if Rhaenyra had been Viserys I's Hand at the time of his death? Or at least in the city and the one who were with him when he died, being able to make the first steps?

There wouldn't have been a large rebellion then, especially not since it is pretty clear that Rhaenyra wouldn't have killed her half-siblings left and right. She spared both the lives of Alicent and Helaena later on, and that's after they had given her very good cause to kill them. She even made it clear in the beginning of the Dance that she blamed Otto and Alicent for the original coup, and not Aegon II, Helaena, Aemond, or Daeron.

9 hours ago, The Grey Wolf said:

I hope we learn more about Aegon, son of Baelon. At this point all we know is that he lived to see his older brother crowned king. Maybe he is the "ape prince" mentioned by Axell Florent in ADWD?

I expect that guy to be mentioned, and the whole Ape Prince thing should definitely be resolved. The only other prince being able to do that kind of thing would actually be Prince Maegor, Aerion's son. All the others can't be it. Rhaegel's son outlives him (and he doesn't seem to be the kind of guy doing stuff like that), Aelor is too young for that, etc. But then, if it was so recently a prince as Prince Maegor then Axell should have been old enough to do it.

Thus the Aegon fellow - or perhaps also Jaehaerys I's son Aemon, if he and Jocelyn had a son that's not mentioned in the family tree - is the best candidate for the whole thing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I just want to say that I am very excited for this book. I can't wait to read how no one was perfect in the past and so we should enjoy the story and not play favorites. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Text

Re Rhaenyra: If she had been in the capital when Viserys I died I imagine the Greens would have had her murdered. "Oh no! Rhaenyra jumped out the window upon hearing of her beloved father's death! What's this? A will signed by the late king naming his eldest son his heir?! All hail King Aegon II!"

Seriously, when you got the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, the Master of Whisperers, the Master of Laws, the Master of Ships, and the Dowager Queen all plotting against you the chances of an untimely meeting with the Stranger should be pretty high.

Re the Ape Prince: I don't think it makes sense for him to be Prince Aemon, who not only died in battle but was also of "hallowed memory". Prince Aegon or Prince Maegor is the only one that makes sense to me unless Aegon, Aeryn, Gaemon, or Valerion was wed before his untimely death.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Sea Dragon said:

I just want to say that I am very excited for this book. I can't wait to read how no one was perfect in the past and so we should enjoy the story and not play favorites. 

Well, I'd be surprised if Jaehaerys I turned out as another version of his cruel uncle, but who knows...

1 hour ago, The Grey Wolf said:

Re Rhaenyra: If she had been in the capital when Viserys I died I imagine the Greens would have had her murdered. "Oh no! Rhaenyra jumped out the window upon hearing of her beloved father's death! What's this? A will signed by the late king naming his eldest son his heir?! All hail King Aegon II!"

Well, couldn't they have used that ploy with Rhaenyra being alive and on Dragonstone? Nobody ever said anything about Viserys I changing the succession on his deathbed - which they certainly could have done.

1 hour ago, The Grey Wolf said:

Seriously, when you got the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, the Master of Whisperers, the Master of Laws, the Master of Ships, and the Dowager Queen all plotting against you the chances of an untimely meeting with the Stranger should be pretty high.

Not if you act first. And we don't know when exactly the gang there got on board. And we do know that the Greens had to kill, imprison, and bribe a pretty large number of people in KL to go through with their coup.

If Rhaenyra had taken the reins of power other people may have woken up in black cells, and Otto and Alicent may have found themselves under house arrest.

The Hightowers even have to cleanse the City Watch of Black loyalists, indicating that their power grab was far from complete until it was. And then it never was all that complete considering how easy Rhaenyra took the city later on during the war.

1 hour ago, The Grey Wolf said:

Re the Ape Prince: I don't think it makes sense for him to be Prince Aemon, who not only died in battle but was also of "hallowed memory". Prince Aegon or Prince Maegor is the only one that makes sense to me unless Aegon, Aeryn, Gaemon, or Valerion was wed before his untimely death.

Well, just because a man shows a certain eccentric behavior doesn't mean couldn't also be a great hero, no? I mean, this whole ape story is actually a rather cruel joke, not so much a symptom of real madness if you ask me. Whoever did that mocked the people he confronted with the ape dressed in human clothing. The idea that the guy actually thought the ape was his son isn't very likely in my opinion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, I'd be surprised if Jaehaerys I turned out as another version of his cruel uncle, but who knows...

3 hours ago, The Grey Wolf said:

In images drawn by Roman Papsuev, there is strong resemblence between facial expression of Maegor and Jaehaerys.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, Dead headofMaelysKinslayer said:

In images drawn by Roman Papsuev, there is strong resemblence between facial expression of Maegor and Jaehaerys.

Really? Have to watch those pictures again. Right now I only remember that Aegon II looks pretty much like Viserys I and Naerys very much like Daenerys.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, The Grey Wolf said:

@Lord Varys @The Dragon Demands

Barnes & Noble and Amazon are now showing a page count of 736 pages!

Well, it is supposed to be nearly 1,000 manuscript pages. Insert the many illustrations which take nearly a hundred pages as well, and keep in mind that the appendices and the partially blank pages after the end of many of the many chapters in the ASoIaF novels also take up some space, we should be in for a very large amount of text here.

After all, ASoS and ADwD both had around 1,500 manuscript pages which resulted in about 1,000 book pages.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

×