WeKnowNothing Posted July 26, 2017 Share Posted July 26, 2017 19 minutes ago, TMIFairy said: Tough luck - no polygny, sorry. There is Viserys as the spare to Aegon. He will be able to marry and reproduce in 6-8 years time. So no cause for panic for 10 years or more. Both Rheagar and Viserys can be put out to stud to sire (hopefully male) bastards who, if need be, can be legitimised. If RLJ is true, Rheagar has already embarked on such a quest ... Plus there is Rheanys. And finally - the Baratheons ... Yet all the signs show that Rhaegar married Lyanna. The fact that the KG stayed at the tower even AFTER Rhaegar's death, shows that they weren't just following Rhaegar's orders, but protecting the last Targ heir and King (Jon). If Jon was just a bastard, why would Ned have to hide him in the first place? But Ned had to hide him very well, as politically, Jon would be in danger if he was legitimate. No one would have killed Jon if he was just Rhaegar's bastard, but they would if he was Rhagears last legitimate heir - which is why Ned takes such pains to hide him. Jon is constantly being shown to be kingly, which again...shouldn't happen if Jon was just a bastard. And if your saying that no one would accept the polygamy, because it was unusual and not proper - well wasn't insect also accepted, eventhough it was out of the norm for people in Westeros. If Rhaegar only had one son, and one younger brother, why would he want to wait 10-20 more years for them both to conceive more sons? What if Aegon happens to die before then? After all, it isn't unusual for children in Westeros to die young, Aegon would be unlikely to have lived past his 5th birthday if there happened to be a fever spreading or plague of some sorts in Westeros. And for Rhaegar personally, I imagine he would have wanted one of his own sons to inherit after him, not Viserys. We don't know the mental state of Viserys before RR - and even if RR didn't happen, who could say that Viserys still wouldn't go mad? Regarding Rhaenys, she wouldn't be in the line of succession after Aegon. She would only come after Viserys, if he had no sons. After the dance of dragons they don't take any female heirs for the iron throne - even if they do, Rhaenys would only be considered after all the male heirs, so it would go like this: Aerys > then all male heirs: Rhaegar > Aegon > Jon if he's born > Viserys > Any of Viserys's sons. if Viserys has no sons, and there are NO other male candidates for the throne, it would be: Rhaenys > Dany if she's born > any other Female Targ heirs if there are any. it would only come to the Baratheons if the Targs are completely extinct, in both the male line and the female line. Dany can only inherit now since there are NO Targearyen male candidates available (that she knows of). Of course that would change for when when she and everyone else finds out R+L=J. So as long as possible, the Targs should breed as much as they can, especially if they only have Aegon and Viserys as the only other male candidates. This gives Rhaegar reason to have a son or two with another wife - because at this moment, anything can happen to his one son Aegon, and if Viserys is already showing signs of madness, no one wants him on the throne as another potential mad King. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Doe Posted July 26, 2017 Share Posted July 26, 2017 On 25.7.2017 at 3:26 PM, devilish said: What fascinates me though is Tywin hypocrisy. His cousin Joanna was way below his ranking and she brought nothing to the table apart from her beauty. How is that hypocrisy? It isn't about ranking, it's about lineage. Joanna is a Lannister, which puts her above most matches in Westeros. The Freys aren't close to that. What they have going for them is wealth, which the Lannisters obviously don't need,. And even then Tywin might not have complained had it been a first born Frey rather than a second born. A second born inherits nothing, so it's not a good match for Genna. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernie Mac Posted July 26, 2017 Share Posted July 26, 2017 On 25/07/2017 at 2:26 PM, devilish said: What fascinates me though is Tywin hypocrisy. His cousin Joanna was way below his ranking and she brought nothing to the table apart from her beauty. GRRM does not think it was way below his match, GRRM outlines quite clearly why this marriage made sense. http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Asshai.com_Interview_in_Barcelona/ He even goes on to say that he is not sure of who arranged the marriage, it could well have been Tytos or Gerold who made his two sons promise to marry their offspring to further cement the line of Tytos (him being something of a fuck up and Gerold not wanting to see an ambitious Jason or one of his sons causing a Dance of the Lions) And of course I'm not sure why exactly Tywin is being a hypocrite? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
devilish Posted July 27, 2017 Share Posted July 27, 2017 10 hours ago, Bernie Mac said: GRRM does not think it was way below his match, GRRM outlines quite clearly why this marriage made sense. http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Asshai.com_Interview_in_Barcelona/ He even goes on to say that he is not sure of who arranged the marriage, it could well have been Tytos or Gerold who made his two sons promise to marry their offspring to further cement the line of Tytos (him being something of a fuck up and Gerold not wanting to see an ambitious Jason or one of his sons causing a Dance of the Lions) And of course I'm not sure why exactly Tywin is being a hypocrite? I find that to be a very weak alternative explanation TBH. The Tyrells had a much bigger concern about that, with half the reach having a better claim to theirs. Yet Mace married a Hightower and Luthor married a Redwyne. That kept the Reach houses under check and proved more effective that this 'marrying this knight's daughter because his clan might invade CR' nonsense. I am more inclined to think that he married out of love and lust. Tywin might chastise Tyrion but he does share his 'lust' in terms of women (Shae) Tywin sees marriages as a chess game and yet he himself married out of love Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
devilish Posted July 27, 2017 Share Posted July 27, 2017 18 hours ago, WeKnowNothing said: Who are Rickard and Marna again? I just have to ask, It's escaped me at the moment. Robert Baratheon's no 1 fan boy daddy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Doe Posted July 27, 2017 Share Posted July 27, 2017 37 minutes ago, devilish said: Tywin sees marriages as a chess game and yet he himself married out of love Lol, you're pretty biased. Have you even read what Martin said? Quote Maybe it was Lord Tytos' idea, or maybe even Tywin's grandfather's idea, it depends on which was the exact time in which the marriage alliance was brokered, but I would have to check my notes because I can't remember. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
devilish Posted July 27, 2017 Share Posted July 27, 2017 4 minutes ago, John Doe said: Lol, you're pretty biased. Have you even read what Martin said? I did and I find it a very weak explanation with alot of maybes. PS: Tywin is one of my favourite characters Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Doe Posted July 27, 2017 Share Posted July 27, 2017 3 hours ago, devilish said: I did and I find it a very weak explanation with alot of maybes. PS: Tywin is one of my favourite characters I'm sorry about the accusation then, a lot of people have anti Lannister bias around here, so I thought you were one of them. I think the key point is that it's probably Tytos or his father who planned the marriage, not Tywin, so accusing him of being a hypocrite isn't fair imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humble Maester Posted July 27, 2017 Share Posted July 27, 2017 4 hours ago, John Doe said: I'm sorry about the accusation then, a lot of people have anti Lannister bias around here, so I thought you were one of them. I think the key point is that it's probably Tytos or his father who planned the marriage, not Tywin, so accusing him of being a hypocrite isn't fair imo. Though, to be fair, Tywin has a long character from childhood so he would had probably made his opinion heard on this matter too, and if he did I don't really blame him. Even the most rational human beings have difficulties when judging issues relating to themselves and if Tywin truly had fallen for Joanna before their marriage, then that was it. I wouldn't call that marriage lopsided (they were both Lannisters) but maybe not strategically the best option. Also I don't think anyone has mentioned the most lopsided marriage (mentioned) in all of the series. The marriage of Crown Prince Duncan (the Small) and Jenny of Oldstones, so lopsided it cost him the crown. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMIFairy Posted July 27, 2017 Share Posted July 27, 2017 11 minutes ago, Humble Maester said: Also I don't think anyone has mentioned the most lopsided marriage (mentioned) in all of the series. The marriage of Crown Prince Duncan (the Small) and Jenny of Oldstones, so lopsided it cost him the crown. I believe the OP asked not to include noble-smallfolk marriages ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humble Maester Posted July 27, 2017 Share Posted July 27, 2017 17 minutes ago, TMIFairy said: I believe the OP asked not to include noble-smallfolk marriages ... Ah, my bad then, suppose I should pay more attention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
devilish Posted July 27, 2017 Share Posted July 27, 2017 7 hours ago, John Doe said: I'm sorry about the accusation then, a lot of people have anti Lannister bias around here, so I thought you were one of them. I think the key point is that it's probably Tytos or his father who planned the marriage, not Tywin, so accusing him of being a hypocrite isn't fair imo. I see Tywin as the second best hand of the king ever (behind the bloodraven). However he was far from perfect and he did his (small) share of mistakes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Doe Posted July 27, 2017 Share Posted July 27, 2017 1 hour ago, devilish said: I see Tywin as the second best hand of the king ever (behind the bloodraven). However he was far from perfect and he did his (small) share of mistakes I agree, I just think this isn't one of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foot_Of_The_King Posted July 28, 2017 Share Posted July 28, 2017 Not in the main series of books but the Prince of Dragonflies and Jenny of Oldstones. I mean it doesn't get any more political/socially one sided than the heir to the throne marrying a peasant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grumkin_snark Posted July 28, 2017 Share Posted July 28, 2017 On 7/25/2017 at 8:50 PM, The Bard of Banefort said: A man from House Manwoody married Eleana Targaryen I don't think it's all that lopsided. The Manwoodys are one of the oldest and highest-ranking houses in Dorne, he had come with Mariah's retinue and thus was in KL for ~18-39 years before they wed, he "studied at the Citadel [and] was a cultured man of great wit and learning," Elaena was the youngest of 5 children, had already had 7 kids by then (including two bastards), and marrying Michael was for love not dynastic reasons (indeed they never had children together). I'd say it was a perfectly reasonable marriage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
devilish Posted July 28, 2017 Share Posted July 28, 2017 18 hours ago, John Doe said: I agree, I just think this isn't one of them. I made some research about it and I might have to retract what I just said. In matter of fact, I am starting to think that Joanna-Tywin’s marriage might not even be Tywin’s idea in the first place. Tytos died in 267 AC while Tywin-Joanna got hitched in 263 AC. We also know through Genna’s case that a- Tytos liked to deal with these things very early (Genna was promised to Emmon at 7 years of age) b- He was a lousy negotiator In a typical medieval mindset, the Lord father would be the one calling the shots. TBF Tytos was hardly the dominant medieval Lord and Tywin was hardly the typical medieval obedient son. There again, the buck seem to stop with marriages so we can assume that Tytos engineering Tywin's marriage just as he did with Genna. Which makes me wonder whether there was more behind Tywin’s insistence in provoking the Tarbecks despite the latter having Stafford Lannister in custody. Sure, the Lannisters couldn’t afford looking weak to such dirty tactics. However, Tywin must have known that if Stafford died because he preferred the Lannister pride to Jason’s first born, then the latter might have no choice but to call off the wedding out of grief/pride. You must admit that this is the sort of Machiavellian cunningness Tywin has. Don't take me wrong, I do believe that Tywin ended up loving Joanna Lannister and count his marriage to her as a blessing. However, similarly to Ned-Cat that might have taken a bit of time. Tywin was the warden of the West son, Joanna was a knight's daughter. I seriously doubt they frequented the same social circles until up they got engaged. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Snowflake Posted July 29, 2017 Share Posted July 29, 2017 Alys Karstark and Sigorn the Thenn Lollys Stokeworth and Ser Bronn of the Blackwater Tyrion and Tysha Doran and his lady from Norvos (Doran needed allies in the 7K Lynesse Hightower and Jorah the Andal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted July 29, 2017 Share Posted July 29, 2017 On 7/25/2017 at 6:53 PM, TMIFairy said: Delena Florent and Ser Hosman Norcross. Amerei Frey and Ser Pate. Frey again - Walder "The Original" and Joyeuse Erenford Lord Baelish and Lysa Arryn nee Tully? Lord Vance - OK, I agree that Genna-Emmon is lopsided. But in my eyes definitely not a contender for the "most one sided marriage" trophy Also Amerei Frey to Lancel Lannister. She's the daughter of Walder Frey's 9th son. He's the Lord of Darry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted July 29, 2017 Share Posted July 29, 2017 Spoiler Prince Duncan and Jenny of Oldstones is the most socially one-sided marriage that I can think of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMIFairy Posted July 29, 2017 Share Posted July 29, 2017 16 minutes ago, SeanF said: Also Amerei Frey to Lancel Lannister. She's the daughter of Walder Frey's 9th son. He's the Lord of Darry. I see this as the other way around - it is Amerei who is the Lady Darry and it's Lancel - a landless son of a household knight - who married up. Gregor Clegane killed the last male(s) of House Darry, the title going to sister of the last Lord (or maybe aunt? Father'\s sister, in that case) Mariya Frey nee Darry, wife to Merret Frey. Amerei is her eldest living child. With no living son - Little Walder dead - eldest daughter gets it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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