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AryaSansa

LittleFinger from the character's viewpoint

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33 minutes ago, Darksnider05 said:

I didn't specify you but are you not one who started out speaking of peoples "Delusions"?  But even ignoring that if you work in law and you don't think someone who orchestrates and enables all of these crimes is just as bad I don't know what to tell you.  Because you mentioned raping an eleven year old girl with a dog and that one tracks back to Littlefinger as he had said girl trained in the sex trade after holding her prisoner from the slaughtered retainers of House Stark and delivers her to said dog rapist and flayer of people.

 

Of course. Hence why I said LF is evil.

But who is more evil ? The man who sells a girl off for profit and political gain, or the man who has animals rape her because it satisfies his sadistic urges ?

Both are evil to be sure, both bear responsibility, but who is worse ? Well, that's a matter of how you view evil, and how your moral system is constructed.

In virtually all modern legal systems, I guarantee you that the man who does the rape would suffer harsher consequences than the man who sold the girl.

My personal moral philosophy somewhat aligns with this view. I consider the actual setting of a dog on a girl to be worse than the sale of that girl.

LF's motives aren't noble, obviously, but they aren't sadistic. He may not care what happens to Jeyne Poole, but he isn't deliberately setting out to inflict horrors upon her out of pure sadism. That is the key difference in my mind.

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3 hours ago, NickStark2494 said:

Delusion at its finest. Can't believe anyone actually thinks LF is worse than people like Joffrey, Euron, Ramsay, the Mountain, etc...

Hell, even Roose Bolton is worse than LF, in my view. Cersei definitely is. Tywin is also a pretty ruthless and brutal manipulator, who can at times be vicious or even cruel (forcing Tyrion to watch as his men raped Tysha, and then making Tyrion go last).

Lots of people are worse than Baelish, or at least give him a run for his money.

Sheep are sheep.  :rolleyes:

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Probably LF love Cat at some point, she was his first love etc, but he did everything to destroy her life. Maybe he loved Sansa as an extension, but he framed her for Joffrey's murder!

I'm not satisfied with the execution of the scene, but I love the outcome

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Have to admit, I was bummed they killed Littlefinger. Not an honorable character by any stretch, but He did help save winterfell and He did help save Sansa from kings landing. He came from nothing and built a small empire. I suppose being cucked was the only way for him to die . his one weakness was always the Tully girls.

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1 minute ago, tallTale said:

Have to admit, I was bummed they killed Littlefinger. He did help save winterfell. He did help save Sansa from kings landing. He's not an honorable character, but I thought he deserved a more fitting death. But I guess being cucked was the only way-his one weakness were the Tully loooking girls.

He did help save Winterfel in the same sense that someone who deliberately pours grape juice on a white rug could "save" the floor by sponging it up.  Point being WF only needed saving because LF put it in jeopardy.

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RIP LF.  

He died because he did not know when to stop.

it was cute he asked Lord Royce to save him.

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1 minute ago, Lockjaw of House Boltagon said:

Well, that death scene was worth waiting 7 seasons for. /s

Really, could that be any more anticlimactic? I mean, I liked him crying and begging on his knees but...that was it? 

You are correct, naturally.  I wanted him to see the trap coming, flee south, and be devoured by a certain dire wolf and her pack.

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7 minutes ago, Lockjaw of House Boltagon said:

Well, that death scene was worth waiting 7 seasons for. /s

Really, could that be any more anticlimactic? I mean, I liked him crying and begging on his knees but...that was it? 

Yeah, I was hoping death by dragons or something. That was lame.

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On 8/26/2017 at 5:04 AM, AryaSansa said:

All I hear is how LittleFinger is a terrible person from all the characters in the show.  Sure he is terrible, but that's because we see his actions as the audience of the TV show.

What I don't get is how the characters know he is terrible.

For instance, when Sansa got mad at him for marrying her off to Ramsay, she used specious logic where she said if he knew Ramsey was bad, he's evil, if he didn't, he's "an idiot".  If Sansa didn't know herself, would she be an idiot as well?  If Roose Bolton didn't even know, wouldn't he be an idiot too?  The show never demonstrates that Ramsay's psyhotic tendencies are known throughout Westeros, but not too much that it is unknown to Sansa.  Besides, Little Finger's motives / benefits in marrying Sansa to Ramsey aren't exact clear.  The only time Little Finger could be suspected of being evil instead of pragmatic was when she pushed Lysa out the Moon Door.  But even still, that may have saved Sansa in the future since Lysa was endangering Sansa.

Furthermore, Little Finger's actions haven't been entirely consistent with his self-serving nature.  Why save Sansa from King's Landing?  Why save Jon and Sansa vs the Boltons instead of letting the Boltons wipe out Jon and the Vale taking the North for themselves?  And what is his motive in creating faux discord between Sansa and Arya?  He should technically have the largest army stationed in the North.

All this faux drama seems to be a manufactured conflict by the show writers to kill him off.

Combination of Bran's visions and his actions (Little Finger is a spy Master of sorts, he has spies in the North as well he should have or did know was her point).  I wouldn't assume Roose didn't know, he even scolded Ramsey partly because of her treatment of her.

Yes they are, he wants a pretext for invading the North (which he gets from Cersi).  Even if Ramsey wasn't an abusing Sansa he has it since she's wanted dead by Cersi.

He pushed her threw the Moondoor to take power.

He didn't save her, he stepped in and kept her there rather than lose her to Highgarden.  

The North would never except a Southerner at Winterfell, and the Vale Commanders specifically heard Robin mention agree the point was to save Sansa (pretext that it was).

LF has been entirely selfish/selfserving. 

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On 8/26/2017 at 5:04 AM, AryaSansa said:

For instance, when Sansa got mad at him for marrying her off to Ramsay, she used specious logic where she said if he knew Ramsey was bad, he's evil, if he didn't, he's "an idiot".  If Sansa didn't know herself, would she be an idiot as well?  If Roose Bolton didn't even know, wouldn't he be an idiot too? 

No, she wouldn't be. Littlefinger is someone who's made it his business to know all there is to know about the players in the game, so if he didn't know Ramsay likes to flay people and hunt them down with his dogs, it's a failing at something he's usually good at. Roose Bolton did know. Not that Ramsay would kill him, but about the rest of it.

On 8/26/2017 at 5:04 AM, AryaSansa said:

Furthermore, Little Finger's actions haven't been entirely consistent with his self-serving nature.  Why save Sansa from King's Landing?  Why save Jon and Sansa vs the Boltons instead of letting the Boltons wipe out Jon and the Vale taking the North for themselves?

He wanted Sansa by his side ruling the Seven Kingdoms, like he said, because he sees her as Cat 2.0.

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That was a good ending to LF..... I still cannot tell if the sisters were actively working together to accomplish that.  It didn't make it clear. 

However, that drama between Arya and Sansa was lame fake and I'm glad it is over :D

I'm glad LF is now dead, the way he was called out for his crimes was extremely appropriate and good, and that Arya killed him was fabulous.

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On 8/26/2017 at 2:04 AM, AryaSansa said:

Furthermore, Little Finger's actions haven't been entirely consistent with his self-serving nature.  Why save Sansa from King's Landing?  Why save Jon and Sansa vs the Boltons instead of letting the Boltons wipe out Jon and the Vale taking the North for themselves?  And what is his motive in creating faux discord between Sansa and Arya?  He should technically have the largest army stationed in the North.

All this faux drama seems to be a manufactured conflict by the show writers to kill him off.

That's not faux drama, that's his character conflict.* He's a self-serving manipulative bastard. He's also in love with Sansa. It's not a question of which of those is true; they're both true, and they often conflict. He believes he's clever enough he can avoid them ever conflicting, that he can manipulate everyone (even Sansa) for Sansa's benefit as well as his own every time without ever having to choose between the two, but he's not; he just fails to see the conflict when it comes up.

That's why he saved Sansa in KL, and why he saved her from the Boltons.

With Arya, it's not quite as simple, but still not that complicated. His goal at this stage is to manipulate events so that Sansa instead of Jon ends up leading the North, while at the same time she ends up tied more closely to him than ever. Arya is a threat to his plans, so she has to be taken out. At the same time, she's an opportunity—if he can make Sansa complicit in taking out her own sister, she'll never have anyone but LF to turn to again.

And his plan didn't fail because he underestimated Arya. He really was outplaying her all season. It failed because he underestimated Sansa. Or, rather, because he didn't realize that he'd repeatedly acted against her best interests, he never expected that she'd conclude that he'd repeatedly acted against her best interests and therefore come after him.

---

* He also has a secondary conflict, but the show seems to have not chosen to make anything of it. He seems to be so addicted to creating chaos that he sometimes fails to grab hold of the power he's freed up (which was supposed to be the point) because he's too busy setting up the next round of chaos. But again, I don't think this helps explain his S7 story. The main conflict, and the one they chose to go with, is his love for Sansa/Cat.

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2 hours ago, Lockjaw of House Boltagon said:

Well, that death scene was worth waiting 7 seasons for. /s

Really, could that be any more anticlimactic? I mean, I liked him crying and begging on his knees but...that was it? 

I think the trial was the perfect end to his story. Sansa was put in a position where she had to choose between trying to beat LF at his own game, or beat him Arya's way, and she chose option 3, to beat him her way, as the Lady of Winterfell, using her authority openly and without guile.

I do wish the execution at the end had been different. The one who passes the sentence should swing the sword. And Sansa is nowhere near strong enough to decapitate anyone cleanly. It would be a bloody, painful mess, with her swinging over and over until finally she does enough damage to his spinal cord that he stops thrashing and lies limp and they need the Maester to check whether he's dead or just mortally wounded. That would avoid the whole thing feeling like "Stark vengeance, fuck yeah!" and instead remind us that being Lady of Winterfell isn't all lemon cakes.

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Many people see him as pure evil, but actually his story is one of tragedy. He really loved Cat (wasn't mutual, but Cat didn't love Ned at first either), but was humiliated and spurn away. He wanted to make a name for himself, but he was constantly looked down upon because he was of a minor house, so he turned into a plotter.

He really loves Sansa, but in a very twisted way. Years of running brothels and dealing with prostitutes have alienated him away from the true meaning of love. He doesn't hate Cat, but he did hate Ned with a passion for taking Cat from him. That's why he destroyed Ned's family. If anything Littlefinger biggest sin is his selfishness. He only cares for his own well being. He cares for Sansa, but he cannot grasp what is wrong with destroying her life. It's like he is destroying everything that makes her happy in order to make her totally dependent on him.

Littlefinger in the books is a lot more consistent than Littlefinger in the show.

The murder or Lysa wasn't premeditated in the books - in fact he took a great personal risk to do it. He was planning to do it - eventually - but he did it in a tense moment to save Sansa.

He is not sure how he feels about Sansa - she reminds him too much of Cat and his feeling for her mother are carrying over to her. He's doing what he can to help her, despite destroying her life to begin with. He may not even realize he has feelings for her, but they are there. Some kind of twisted fatherly feelings (she COULD have been his daughter) mixed in with love (she looks exactly like the woman he loved - remember Littlefinger and and Cat were about the age of Sansa when the love triangle happened). Selling her off to the Boltons made very little sense in the show, because Ramsy is a known sadist. Littlefinger cares little for Sansa's family, but he cares a great deal about her personally. He would not allowed her to be tortured or raped.

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On 26. 8. 2017 at 11:04 AM, AryaSansa said:

All I hear is how LittleFinger is a terrible person from all the characters in the show.  Sure he is terrible, but that's because we see his actions as the audience of the TV show.

What I don't get is how the characters know he is terrible.

For instance, when Sansa got mad at him for marrying her off to Ramsay, she used specious logic where she said if he knew Ramsey was bad, he's evil, if he didn't, he's "an idiot".  If Sansa didn't know herself, would she be an idiot as well?  If Roose Bolton didn't even know, wouldn't he be an idiot too?  The show never demonstrates that Ramsay's psyhotic tendencies are known throughout Westeros, but not too much that it is unknown to Sansa.  Besides, Little Finger's motives / benefits in marrying Sansa to Ramsey aren't exact clear.  The only time Little Finger could be suspected of being evil instead of pragmatic was when she pushed Lysa out the Moon Door.  But even still, that may have saved Sansa in the future since Lysa was endangering Sansa.

Furthermore, Little Finger's actions haven't been entirely consistent with his self-serving nature.  Why save Sansa from King's Landing?  Why save Jon and Sansa vs the Boltons instead of letting the Boltons wipe out Jon and the Vale taking the North for themselves?  And what is his motive in creating faux discord between Sansa and Arya?  He should technically have the largest army stationed in the North.

All this faux drama seems to be a manufactured conflict by the show writers to kill him off.

Thank you for this post. Yeah, LF was a schemer and had questionable morals but I think that you can't simply label him as a villain in the same category as Ramsay or Joffrey. While he did a few bad things, he also saved Sansa three times and Arya once. Without him, both will be probably long dead. Sansa should, more or less, see him as her saviour (which is what she does in the books). However, Sansa, for a reason I cannot understand at all, repeatedly forgets that she agreed to marry Ramsay and blames LF for it.

I honestly don't understand why is everyone so sure that LF is evil. For example Brienne. She is constantly against him, although she knows nothing about him. Jon hates him, although LF saved his life. Neither Jon, nor Brienne know about LF making Lysa murder Jon Arryn, betraying Ned, killing Joffrey and possibly not even about him killing Lysa. Yet they both are 100% he is a bad guy. Makes no sense. If we accept the theory that Arya and Sansa were playing LF this whole season, it would mean that they assumed right from the beginning that he would try to pit them against each other. He eventually did but how the f they could predict it like this?

It's the same thing as Cersei's relationship with Jaime. It was a highly guarded secret for seasons and suddenly everybody knows about it and are completely certain about it.

11 hours ago, Lockjaw of House Boltagon said:

Well, that death scene was worth waiting 7 seasons for. /s

Really, could that be any more anticlimactic? I mean, I liked him crying and begging on his knees but...that was it? 

I agree. I expected him to eventually be killed by Sansa but I also expected it to be the "student outplayed the master" scenario which it imo wasn't. Like Sansa setting a trap and LF being cought in flagranti in such a way that no one could deny he is guilty. Saying that Arya might be a dangerous person is not a trap. Instead, Sansa, Arya and Bran confronted him without having an actual proof or witness, relying solely on Bran's and Sansa's claims, and everyone happily agreed with it and didn't even question it. Don't get me wrong, I liked that it was the Stark kids who killed him, after all he did to their family, but the execution of his downfall was just lame.

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On 8/27/2017 at 4:43 PM, Gala said:

 I was happy when despite their innocence Cersei's 2 kids died - she deserved that more than anyone and it all was her doing; Jaime, too, for that matter.
 

That is a very twisted moral compass, IMHO.

16 hours ago, TommyJ said:

LF is the most dangerous character, not the most evil one. Yeah he does evil things, loves chaos, but he does not enjoy it because he loves suffering, no he likes it because he sees an opportunity in it.

He was in the past. For the last two seasons he has just been a danger to himself :)

10 hours ago, falcotron said:

 It failed because he underestimated Sansa. Or, rather, because he didn't realize that he'd repeatedly acted against her best interests, he never expected that she'd conclude that he'd repeatedly acted against her best interests and therefore come after him.

His plan follow because he did not fall his own advice, what is kind of silly:

I guess that imagining an omniscient cripple boy whose father he had betrayed would snitch on him was too much for his imagination?

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I think his love for Sansa was more symbolic- he wasn't able to have the mother but he could have the daughter. He's stuck in that childhood.

He's a schemer but most of the characters are- it's necessary to survive and vital to gaining power- so that doesn't make him evil per se.

I thought it was interesting that despite his snakey planning, he died like a worm- poetically just and showing how family love won out over a childhood crush- but it was too obvious to do it in that scene.

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