U.S. Politics: A City Upon A Hill Has Lost It's Shine.

[all swedes are racist]

2 hours ago, Triskan said:

Sounds like even Ted Cruz is saying he's not on board.  At this point I would think the Turtle would not want to bring it up for a vote.  

I'm still amazed at the calculus of even going for this thing because they "promised they would" and fear a backlash if they don't get it done.  But imagine the potential backlash if they did pass it.  

the calculus works better if you remember the koch network's promise to "close the piggy banks" for the mid terms if their preferred healthcare and tax reforms don't get enacted. that's a lotta fuckin money to lose out on

[DMC]

3 minutes ago, good chill praxis guy said:

the calculus works better if you remember the koch network's promise to "close the piggy banks" for the mid terms if their preferred healthcare and tax reforms don't get enacted. that's a lotta fuckin money to lose out on

It's Mercer to the rescue!

[Bonnot OG]

10 minutes ago, ThinkerX said:

And again, that attitude makes a bad situation worse - very possibly to the point of some sort of half assed civil war.  Is that what you want?

 Communicate, though, and possibilities open up.  I linked to this piece a couple pages ago. It began with an armed confrontation and could have easily gotten worse.  Then they decided to talk WITH each other instead of AT each other. Take note of the ending.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/first-was-the-armed-showdown-at-the-mosque-over-sharia-then-came-the-sitdown-at-dairy-queen-over-the-future-of-america/ar-AAsn2Y0?ocid=msnclassic

Go preach at conservatives that voted for Trump and cheered on his bigotry about that. Not people defending themselves and rights or their loved ones and their rights.

[Dr. Pepper]

21 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

They are drawing attention to a real problem (which isn't black crime, by the way, it's violence committed by police against black people) and they are doing it in a very effective manner and in a non-violent way. That protest does not equate to the Milo Berkeley protest in any substantial way. It doesn't shut anybody up, it expresses a concern through a very simple action (or inaction, really)

My point is Milo was not shut up at all. He was given a bullhorn.

My sincere apologies.  I absolutely miswrote there.

There are more protests going on than just violence committed by police against black people.  Today's mass NFL protests are a direct response against Trump.  It's not shutting up Trump at all.  He's still the fucking president with a twitter account and open access to the media.  He has the world's biggest bullhorn.  What this protest does is say that what this person says is wrong and they do not condone it.  Standing up to people matters even if it doesn't shut him up.  It will serve to change the minds of others, too.  Or at least get others on their side.

Milo wasn't given a bullhorn.  He's lost multiple horns through all of this.  He no longer has a twitter account, his attempts to speak publicly provoked people into digging into all of his interviews which eventually led to the loss of his breitbart platform.  So how unsuccessful have these protests been, exactly?  Further, there are a growing number of people who are telling me and others like me "I stand with you and against those who are against you."  That's very meaningful and a huge win.  

 

 

[Bonnot OG]

3 minutes ago, Dr. Pepper said:

My sincere apologies.  I absolutely miswrote there.

There are more protests going on than just violence committed by police against black people.  Today's mass NFL protests are a direct response against Trump.  It's not shutting up Trump at all.  He's still the fucking president with a twitter account and open access to the media.  He has the world's biggest bullhorn.  What this protest does is say that what this person says is wrong and they do not condone it.  Standing up to people matters even if it doesn't shut him up.  It will serve to change the minds of others, too.  Or at least get others on their side.

Milo wasn't given a bullhorn.  He's lost multiple horns through all of this.  He no longer has a twitter account, his attempts to speak publicly provoked people into digging into all of his interviews which eventually led to the loss of his breitbart platform.  So how unsuccessful have these protests been, exactly?  Further, there are a growing number of people who are telling me and others like me "I stand with you and against those who are against you."  That's very meaningful and a huge win.  

 

 

Facebook needs to pull the plug on him having an account.

 

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

3 minutes ago, Dr. Pepper said:

My sincere apologies.  I absolutely miswrote there.

There are more protests going on than just violence committed by police against black people.  Today's mass NFL protests are a direct response against Trump.  It's not shutting up Trump at all.  He's still the fucking president with a twitter account and open access to the media.  He has the world's biggest bullhorn.  What this protest does is say that what this person says is wrong and they do not condone it.  Standing up to people matters even if it doesn't shut him up.  It will serve to change the minds of others, too.  Or at least get others on their side.

Milo wasn't given a bullhorn.  He's lost multiple horns through all of this.  He no longer has a twitter account, his attempts to speak publicly provoked people into digging into all of his interviews which eventually led to the loss of his breitbart platform.  So how unsuccessful have these protests been, exactly?  Further, there are a growing number of people who are telling me and others like me "I stand with you and against those who are against you."  That's very meaningful and a huge win.  

Your point about Trump is directly comparable to the effect that the Milo Berkeley protest had, you are right about that. Trump's diatribe had the exact opposite effect that he had hoped it would have. That said, I think you're wrong about everything else. The core issue surrounding the Kaepernick Anthem protest is BLM. That's why he started doing it. The Trump backlash magnified it, but the core protest remains the same. 

I stand with you in terms of what you find offensive regarding Milo's speech. It's despicable and heartless to traumatize and marginalize folks who are on the fringes. I don't condone that in any way, shape or form. What I can't agree with is the use of violent protest to block speech. Nor can I agree with the perception that this particular protest was a victory for anyone other than Milo. The one point regarding that I will concede is that perhaps the extra attention did lead to that video podcast footage being dredged up. 

[Sivin]

1 hour ago, ThinkerX said:

The problem is, this attitude leads directly to the opposing sides battering each other into pulp. Conservatives pass laws liberals hate now, which results in demonstrations with a high possibility of turning violent.  Conservatives use that violence to justify even harsher laws, and violence of their own.  Then, maybe leftist types win control of congress, and not only undo the conservative measures, but take aim at other laws and institutions conservatives value.  Lawsuits. Violence.  Polarization. Meanwhile, critical things are not getting done - infrastructure, schools, and more.  And the whole country, liberal and conservative alike, goes backward.

The other side doesn't go away.  Either find someway to deal with the other side at a rational level, even if you deem it distasteful, or lose everything. 

 

1 hour ago, polishgenius said:

Sure, but surely sometimes healing is better than amputation? Like, obviously, not everyone who supports Trump and the Republicans can be reasoned with or should be. But some of them can. It does matter that Mr.Thinker 'is totes cool with the gays he knows personally' because that's a step in a dialogue in which he switches/stops his vote and/or starts making some effort to change the social/political view from his side. And I realise that it's not your job nor should you have to to dialogue with everyone who supports those trying to supress your right to be, but just shouting down everyone on that side of the fence as if they were all equal and equally rotten just makes everyone close ranks and be less likely to change their minds. And changing their minds is in the end the only real way to end the problem. It's not going to end just from people on our side talking amongs ourselves and shouting over the fence: we need people on their side to be working for it too.

Thinker already posited that his father and others like him are 'politically limited', suggesting that they'll never support ideals that aren't antithetical to decency. I happen to agree, thus there is no recourse with these disgusting advocates of advocates of oppression and social disharmony. ThinkerX's father will never vote for a progressive, and always for the candidate who wants, at a minimum, to strip away my rights if not my life. 

17 minutes ago, ThinkerX said:

And again, that attitude makes a bad situation worse - very possibly to the point of some sort of half assed civil war.  Is that what you want?

 Communicate, though, and possibilities open up.  I linked to this piece a couple pages ago. It began with an armed confrontation and could have easily gotten worse.  Then they decided to talk WITH each other instead of AT each other. Take note of the ending.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/first-was-the-armed-showdown-at-the-mosque-over-sharia-then-came-the-sitdown-at-dairy-queen-over-the-future-of-america/ar-AAsn2Y0?ocid=msnclassic

You want me to break sugar cone with Richard Spencer, is that it? I have to treat an ideology that demands mass murder against persecuted peoples as my intellectual and civil equal while he denounces me? Am I to treat Ben Shapiro likewise and ignore that he has made his name by insinuating that I should be in an asylum? I'm sure both men and their rabid supporters will be thoughtful and attentive in our discussions, and that I won't be putting my life in jeopardy by exposing myself to their homicidal rhetoric. 

By advocating dialogue you are insinuating that both sides have valid points of view and compromise is possible. 

I say no, sir. There is no valid point of view hidden in the tenets of national socialism, white supremacists do not possess a grievance of merit we could agree on, and losers that support demagogues preaching vitriol and hate will never be amenable to peace and reason. 

15 minutes ago, Starkess said:

So what's your brilliant solution? 62,979,879 people voted for Trump. Are you going to round them up and put them in front of a firing squad? Strip them of their right to vote? Do you have any desire to actually see the United States continue into the future as a nation or are you over the entire concept?

Hmm, that is what they want to do to me so... nah. I'd be cool with those 62 million being represented proportionally for a start. But wait, they'll never agree to that. I'd be partially sated if it was made illegal to hold rallies for terrorist groups and promote genocidal ideologies. Also to ban the distribution of personal information of private citizens for harassment purposes.

[Dr. Pepper]

29 minutes ago, Sword of Doom said:

Facebook needs to pull the plug on him having an account.

 

Facebook has proven to be a shit stain in this matter.  Zuckerberg is constantly on record discussing all the ways he wants to be good and do good and not have facebook as a platform of this or that, but it all continues.

Frankly, Twitter needs to pull the plug on trump having an account.

17 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

Your point about Trump is directly comparable to the effect that the Milo Berkeley protest had, you are right about that. Trump's diatribe had the exact opposite effect that he had hoped it would have. That said, I think you're wrong about everything else. The core issue surrounding the Kaepernick Anthem protest is BLM. That's why he started doing it. The Trump backlash magnified it, but the core protest remains the same. 

I stand with you in terms of what you find offensive regarding Milo's speech. It's despicable and heartless to traumatize and marginalize folks who are on the fringes. I don't condone that in any way, shape or form. What I can't agree with is the use of violent protest to block speech. Nor can I agree with the perception that this particular protest was a victory for anyone other than Milo. The one point regarding that I will concede is that perhaps the extra attention did lead to that video podcast footage being dredged up. 

Yes, the NFL anthem protests began as BLM.  That's not what's going on today.  It's a direct response to Trump who barked about making it less safe for players to play as well as firing players who protest.  It's expanded beyond what it started as.

When peaceful protests don't work and real people's lives on on the lines, what then are you prepared to do?  The threat was imminent.  The environment needed to be made so that it was too unsafe for shitbags to talk.  That has proven to work at places like Berkeley.  It's not like there weren't peaceful protests before the more violent one broke out.

Again, Milo has lost multiple platforms over the last year.  People have been making stands about allowing he and his ilk to speak.  In a different climate his kind being given platforms wouldn't be so problematic.  You must acknowledge that these times aren't normal.

[The Mance]

24 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

The one point regarding that I will concede is that perhaps the extra attention did lead to that video podcast footage being dredged up. 

Though it should be noted that digging up old footage to defame a virulent pustule like Milo is an excellent example of nonviolent countering, and it did more to shut that fucker up than any amount of random face-punching of his fans ever could. 

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

4 minutes ago, Dr. Pepper said:

Yes, the NFL anthem protests began as BLM.  That's not what's going on today.  It's a direct response to Trump who barked about making it less safe for players to play as well as firing players who protest.  It's expanded beyond what it started as.

 I think it's both. What happened today is a direct response to Trump's authoritarian bullshit, granted, but it is also a show of solidarity for the BLM protest that Kaepernick started, and other players like Micheal Bennett have continued in Kaepernick's absence. Not sure you can separate the two. Make no mistake, this is a big PR win for BLM as much as it is an embarrassment for Trump.  

[Dr. Pepper]

1 minute ago, The Mance said:

Though it should be noted that digging up old footage to defame a virulent pustule like Milo is an excellent example of nonviolent countering, and it did more to shut that fucker up than any amount of random face-punching of his fans ever could. 

Shit like that doesn't always work out the way one hopes.  Anyone remember this person who admitted on tape to gleefully sexually assaulting women only to have millions ignore it and elect him president?  Anyone?

 

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

2 minutes ago, The Mance said:

Though it should be noted that digging up old footage to defame a virulent pustule like Milo is an excellent example of nonviolent countering, and it did more to shut that fucker up than any amount of random face-punching of his fans ever could. 

Agreed. He still hasn't recovered completely from that, and hopefully won't. On the other hand, Milo is currently trying to turn another Berkeley event into his comeback tour.

[Bonnot OG]

20 minutes ago, The Mance said:

Though it should be noted that digging up old footage to defame a virulent pustule like Milo is an excellent example of nonviolent countering, and it did more to shut that fucker up than any amount of random face-punching of his fans ever could. 

And violence shut him down and stopped him from outing undocumented students before most people knew he was pedophile apologist. 

Oh, and so people get a good idea of how shit Milo truly is, and how much of a lying scumbag he really is. 

Before that riot in Berkeley, one of Milo's ans shot an anarchist antifascist protester in Seattle, and Milo tried to say someone shot one of his fans. He also recently photoshopped a leftist reporter into the SPLCENTER homepage to try and say the guy is a neo nazi, which is a lawsuit waiting to happen, which is the route I hope the reporter / writer goes.

 

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

Just now, Sword of Doom said:

And violence shut him down and stopped him from outing undocumented students before most people knew he was pedophile apologist. 

For 3 whole months.

[denstorebog]

17 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

Make no mistake, this is a big PR win for BLM as much as it is an embarrassment for Trump.  

Only if it translates into less approval of Trump, otherwise it's just another day in pre-fascist America. Somehow I have a feeling that every single one of Trump's supporters will now lump the NFL together with Hollywood and the rest of the unpatriotic, librul hatesphere. Sports events will become political battlegrounds either by following suit or not following suit (NASCAR owners say they won't tolerate similar protests at races), but everything else will be same shit, different arena.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

3 minutes ago, denstorebog said:

Only if it translates into less approval of Trump, otherwise it's just another day in pre-fascist America. Somehow I have a feeling that every single one of Trump's supporters will now lump the NFL together with Hollywood and the rest of the librul hatesphere. Sports events will become a political battleground (NASCAR owners say they won't tolerate similar protests at races), but everything else will be same shit, different arena.

Well yeah, I'm not equating "an embarrassment for Trump" into a political victory. It's more a moral one at this point. That said, I can't agree that this is just another day in pre-fascist America. The NFL is HUGE. It's a trillion dollar industry that is extremely high profile. This has been a finger in Trump's eye, regardless of how you perceive it. 

[Dr. Pepper]

20 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

 I think it's both. What happened today is a direct response to Trump's authoritarian bullshit, granted, but it is also a show of solidarity for the BLM protest that Kaepernick started, and other players like Micheal Bennett have continued in Kaepernick's absence. Not sure you can separate the two. Make no mistake, this is a big PR win for BLM as much as it is an embarrassment for Trump.  

We won't know whether or not it's a win for BLM until more people, specifically allies, begin joining the efforts of BLM and we won't know if it's a win against Trump until new approval ratings come out, or until we hit the new elections and the Dems have massive wins.  

7 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

For 3 whole months.

Even three days of reprieve for his would-be victims would be a success.  The goal was to stop him from speaking at that event.  It worked.  It worked so well that Milo began to tumble.  

[denstorebog]

5 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

Well yeah, I'm not equating "an embarrassment for Trump" into a political victory. It's more a moral one at this point.

We're living in a world of post-Trump morals. There's no moral victory if no one's opinion of Trump changes, but everyone's opinion is strengthened.

5 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

This has been a finger in Trump's eye, regardless of how you perceive it. 

Not anymore than the Oscars or the Emmys poking a finger in Trump's eye at every opportunity. Sure, the NFL battle is new, and the viewership is higher, but if the end result is that the pro-Trumpers grow angry at the NFL or the players rather than Trump, I don't see how it's a moral victory. That's not to say that it's a bad thing, but it's more of a morale boost for those who are already embarassed about Trump rather than a new embarassment for him.

[Dr. Pepper]

Kushner used private email to conduct White House business

http://www.politico.com/story/2017/09/24/jared-kushner-private-email-white-house-243071

Quote

Presidential son-in-law and senior adviser Jared Kushner has corresponded with other administration officials about White House matters through a private email account set up during the transition last December, part of a larger pattern of Trump administration aides using personal email accounts for government business.

Kushner uses his private account alongside his official White House email account, sometimes trading emails with senior White House officials, outside advisers and others about media coverage, event planning and other subjects, according to four people familiar with the correspondence. POLITICO has seen and verified about two dozen emails.

Can the GOP every use "But Her Emails" as a rallying cry again?

Oh who am I kidding, they are the party of zero personal responsibility.  

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

1 minute ago, denstorebog said:

Not anymore than the Oscars or the Emmys poking a finger in Trump's eye at every opportunity. Sure, the NFL battle is new, and the viewership is higher, but if the end result is that the pro-Trumpers grow angry at the NFL or the players rather than Trump, I don't see how it's a moral victory. That's not to say that it's a bad thing, but it's more of a morale boost for those who are already embarassed about Trump rather than a new embarassment for him.

Can't agree with that last bit at all. This is an embarrassment for Trump. He calls for a firing for "disrespecting" the flag and something on the order of 10 times the amount of players who were protesting prior join the protest? The league admonished him. Perhaps the most popular black man on the planet called him a bum. If he's not embarrassed, he's not watching TV or reading Twitter today.