Vaith Posted May 5, 2019 Share Posted May 5, 2019 2 minutes ago, The Coconut God said: Tyrion is the blatantly wrong option that only Cersei believes, Jaime is the decoy for "clever" readers looking for a twist. I made a post about this here a while back if you want the details, but the short story is that Maggy's prophecies are likely from Cersei's perspective, not omniscient (because she had to drink her blood), and her killer is called the valonqar (notice the "the" instead of "your") because: He was likely ranting about his older brother while killing her, probably justifying himself like a remorseful murderer would. The older brother had a Valyrian look, which is a match for Euron's armor and the high chance that he will be riding a dragon in the books. Now, Jaime makes perfect sense if you analyze this from Cersei's perspective. Her arc is about alienating her closest allies, being blind and reckless and in general being the architect of her own demise. It would be poetic from that point of view for her to finally alienate her brother and lover and get killed by him without seeing it coming. But the thing is, Jaime is on a different path. He's on a redemption arc where he already decided to stop caring about his sister. She sent him a letter begging him to come rescue her, and what did he do? He burned it and went off with Brienne. He broke free from Cersei. Going back to kill her would be character regression and doesn't really make sense if we look at things from the perspective of his arc. And that's why he's the decoy. George's writing is character driven, so Jaime will do what makes sense for Jaime, not what's poetic for Cersei's arc. He is a complex person, not a narrative tool. The theme of Cersei being the architect of her own demise works just as well, if not better, if it happens through her alliance with Euron (the younger, more beautiful... king). Jaime took Riverrun in the name of the Lannisters and threatened to catapult a child from a trebuchet. There's only so much redemption you can do. If Cersei does pull off something heinous (the equivalent to Season 6 wildfire, though I doubt that will happen) I sincerely do not believe that Jaime is such a good person that he wouldn't kill his sister/ex-lover. The letter is supposed to show a deterioration of their relationship, not it completely being useless for any of their characters. Victarion would be pretty meh for her character. I don't think she'll ever ally with Euron, myself, but either way it's like ... oh no, the pirate king has an evil brother who's killing me! Instead of... oh no, I've destroyed this already toxic relationship that Jaime and I shared and he's killing me for my heinous actions now he has a grasp of his own morality! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vaith Posted May 5, 2019 Share Posted May 5, 2019 So I am guessing that Cersei somehow kidnapping Septa Spoonella and getting UnGregor to rape her is supposed to be the "foreshadowing" for this happening to Missandei Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leticia Stark Posted May 5, 2019 Share Posted May 5, 2019 So I guess R+L= J only exists to make Dany lose her claim and be one of the reasons why she becomes mad. I can't believe I wasted my time watching this shit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrypticWeirwood Posted May 5, 2019 Share Posted May 5, 2019 17 minutes ago, Cas Stark said: I don't believe that for a minute. They said that he's not even done writing Dream yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Coconut God Posted May 5, 2019 Share Posted May 5, 2019 Just now, Vaith said: Jaime took Riverrun in the name of the Lannisters and threatened to catapult a child from a trebuchet. There's only so much redemption you can do. If Cersei does pull off something heinous (the equivalent to Season 6 wildfire, though I doubt that will happen) I sincerely do not believe that Jaime is such a good person that he wouldn't kill his sister/ex-lover. The letter is supposed to show a deterioration of their relationship, not it completely being useless for any of their characters. Cersei is just a regent, and a female one at that. Her word doesn't carry the same weight a true king's would. On top of that, her most loyal followers are either self-serving or downright manipulating her. There's no Aerys scenario where she has to be killed for fear someone will execute her crazy order out of blind loyalty or honor. If she orders the Kettleblacks to light up the wildfire, they won't do it because they don't want to blow up. If Euron wants to do it, he'll do it even if Cersei is dead. 5 minutes ago, Vaith said: Victarion would be pretty meh for her character. I don't think she'll ever ally with Euron, myself, but either way it's like ... oh no, the pirate king has an evil brother who's killing me! Instead of... oh no, I've destroyed this already toxic relationship that Jaime and I shared and he's killing me for my heinous actions now he has a grasp of his own morality! If you don't believe she'll ally with Euron by now I don't know what to say. That's probably the surest thing out of all the show to book spoilers, although the dynamics will be entirely different. It's been hinted at several times in AFFC. And keep in mind there will be at least one book, if not more, for this plot line to develop. She'll have plenty of time to interact with Euron and Victarion, he won't be just "the pirate king's evil brother" by the time it actually happens. This is like saying it's stupid that Roose Bolton killed Robb because back in AGoT he was just a random northern lord who unnerved him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrypticWeirwood Posted May 5, 2019 Share Posted May 5, 2019 3 minutes ago, Leticia Stark said: So I guess R+L= J only exists to make Dany lose her claim and be one of the reasons why she becomes mad. I can't believe I wasted my time watching this shit. Think about all those people reading thousands and thousands, and thousands and thousands and thousands, of pages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Coconut God Posted May 5, 2019 Share Posted May 5, 2019 1 minute ago, CrypticWeirwood said: They said that he's not even done writing Dream yet. Linkitty, link, link? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leticia Stark Posted May 5, 2019 Share Posted May 5, 2019 Just watched Missandei's death scene and I feel like throwing up. Poor girl. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vaith Posted May 5, 2019 Share Posted May 5, 2019 4 minutes ago, The Coconut God said: If you don't believe she'll ally with Euron by now I don't know what to say. That's probably the surest thing out of all the show to book spoilers, although the dynamics will be entirely different. It's been hinted at several times in AFFC. And keep in mind there will be at least one book, if not more, for this plot line to develop. She'll have plenty of time to interact with Euron and Victarion, he won't be just "the pirate king's evil brother" by the time it actually happens. This is like saying it's stupid that Roose Bolton killed Robb because back in AGoT he was just a random northern lord who unnerved him. I mean what the show has done at least makes it an odd choice, and one that I'm not really obligated to give it credit for as Martin's work. I'm not sure why show Euron just didn't kill Cersei and take the throne with his entire fleet station in King's Landing while the Lannister army was away in the Reach. Show Euron has nothing eldritch about him, and so many things have already been warped with the Greyjoys. At this point I am only going to take a few things as given if Benioff & Weiss come out and say the idea was from Martin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
longest night Posted May 5, 2019 Share Posted May 5, 2019 According to this leak, Jaime does not betray the Starks. https://i.redd.it/kfynjmbtuew21.png Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xemi Posted May 5, 2019 Share Posted May 5, 2019 4 minutes ago, longest night said: According to this leak, Jaime does not betray the Starks. https://i.redd.it/kfynjmbtuew21.png Yeah, I posted it a few pages back. I think that's the most credible leak so far, though it says Tyrion's trial/death doesn't happen and Friki's pretty legit usually, so who knows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leticia Stark Posted May 5, 2019 Share Posted May 5, 2019 6 minutes ago, longest night said: According to this leak, Jaime does not betray the Starks. https://i.redd.it/kfynjmbtuew21.png Rhaegal will die in this episode, not on episode 5, so this is wrong at least in this point Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leticia Stark Posted May 5, 2019 Share Posted May 5, 2019 Jaime dying with Cersei is the most predictable ending ever and they went for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xemi Posted May 5, 2019 Share Posted May 5, 2019 Just now, Leticia Stark said: Rhaegal will die in this episode, not on episode 5, so this is wrong at least in this point He's saying that the leaked scene is from episode 5 and not 4, and I think that's pretty likely, I mean them suddenly attacking KL in this episode sounds weird as fuck, and the image leakers said they had both episode 4 and 5... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T and A Posted May 5, 2019 Share Posted May 5, 2019 39 minutes ago, CrypticWeirwood said: Winds is written and waiting for the series to end for the announcement. He's begun Dream but not finished it yet. The showrunners gave this away by accident in one of their interviews. That is just clickbait on the internet. I don't think that GRRM has even written more then half of Winds at this point. At this point, I am pretty sure, that even he does not really know, how the story goes. Tons of prophecies, tons of characters seem to have been written, without the author knowing where this story leads. If what the show is presenting as an "outline" by GRRM, is even remotely from GRRM (even say 10%), this series is not worth reading further. That might explain, why he struggles with finishing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leticia Stark Posted May 5, 2019 Share Posted May 5, 2019 4 minutes ago, Xemi said: He's saying that the leaked scene is from episode 5 and not 4, and I think that's pretty likely, I mean them suddenly attacking KL in this episode sounds weird as fuck, and the image leakers said they had both episode 4 and 5... The KL attack will happen on episode 5, Missandei's and Rhaegal's death on episode 4. Someone said that today's episode will end with Missandei's death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
longest night Posted May 5, 2019 Share Posted May 5, 2019 Just now, T and A said: That is just clickbait on the internet. I don't think that GRRM has even written more then half of Winds at this point. At this point, I am pretty sure, that even he does not really know, how the story goes. Tons of prophecies, tons of characters seem to have been written, without the author knowing where this story leads. If what the show is presenting as an "outline" by GRRM, is even remotely from GRRM (even say 10%), this series is not worth reading further. That might explain, why he struggles with finishing it. It was reported last year I think that it was at 1800 pages manuscript. His publisher wanted to split it into two books, and GRRM refused, saying he'd rather rewrite and cut out sections to make closer in size to previous books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cas Stark Posted May 5, 2019 Share Posted May 5, 2019 6 minutes ago, Leticia Stark said: Jaime dying with Cersei is the most predictable ending ever and they went for it. Well, let me ask you, did you like the totally out of left field, but unpredictable Arya killing the NK? Yes, Jamie & Cersei dying together is not shocking, because it has been predicted and foreshadowed forever, to me that doesn't make it bad, some things are inevitable, as long as the story is good and the build up is good. I'd much rather have something that feels organic and authentic than a crazy shocking moment, like Sansa kills her or something bizarre like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leticia Stark Posted May 5, 2019 Share Posted May 5, 2019 1 minute ago, Cas Stark said: Well, let me ask you, did you like the totally out of left field, but unpredictable Arya killing the NK? Yes, Jamie & Cersei dying together is not shocking, because it has been predicted and foreshadowed forever, to me that doesn't make it bad, some things are inevitable, as long as the story is good and the build up is good. I'd much rather have something that feels organic and authentic than a crazy shocking moment, like Sansa kills her or something bizarre like that. Nah, I didn't and I'm not complaining about this ending for Jaime, that's what I've always believed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cas Stark Posted May 5, 2019 Share Posted May 5, 2019 10 minutes ago, Xemi said: He's saying that the leaked scene is from episode 5 and not 4, and I think that's pretty likely, I mean them suddenly attacking KL in this episode sounds weird as fuck, and the image leakers said they had both episode 4 and 5... Well, the whole thing sounds pretty weird as fuck, I had read those leaks yesterday and thought they were fake, but then today, the clips for three of them, which I think that Dany is killed by Jon comes from the same leakers, so that makes it more believable. It seems like these are probably all from ep. 4 though, as that's how the previous leaks have gone, someone gets the episode the day of airing and leaks are finally validated, same way as for eps 1-3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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