What would have happened if Margaery had died with Joffrey?

[John Suburbs]

22 hours ago, Colonel Green said:

No, I'm not splitting hairs.  You said he was talking about the show, and I pointed out that he was explicitly talking about the books, at which point you changed the subject.

One doesn't need a steel trap mind to openly discuss something.  He's not being vague, he's talking about something he presumes the reader already knows, in fact (even though, in the course of doing so, he actually gave new information -- the whole choking angle -- that nobody had guessed, and in so doing clarified certain aspects of the story considerably).

On that, we agree.

Lol, I'm glad you finally agree that the book proves the poison was in the pie.

But I'll say again, everything in that interview is trumped by "and I make no promises, because I have two more books to write, and I may have more surprises to reveal."

[John Suburbs]

22 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

The above is not the reaction Cressen experienced. What I just realized is Cressen had a regular size cup while Joff had a three foot chalice. The poison would have been diluted by volume but still as deadly.

Cressen's half-cup with a tiny "flake" of a crystal. Joffrey's three-foot chalice, drained significantly from "three quarters full", with a full-sized crystal in it. We also have to realize is that the chalice is not three feet of nothing but cup -- it must have a base and a fairly long stem, otherwise Joffrey would never be able to hoist it one-handed. I would guess it holds maybe four or five times a normal goblet.

But regardless of who had more wine, the text clearly shows that Joffrey's would have been the more concentrated had it been poisoned at the time he was drinking. At the end of the scene, his was "deep purple" while Cressen's was not unusual or discolored in any way. So unless we can come up with a plausible explanation as to who would add more poison to the chalice after Joffrey dropped it, and more importantly why anyone would do such a thing, we can only conclude that Joffrey consumed a massively greater quantity of more potent poisoned wine than Cressen.

But we also have to acknowledge the fact that the strangler is a contact poison. It hits the throat and goes to work directly, not through the stomach and the circulatory system. In this way, it is like poison ivy or ammonia, not arsenic. So, with these indisputable facts in hand, can we conclude that Cressen's small dose would act on him quicker even if it was more concentrated? No, that is not the way chemistry and human physiology works. Increased dilution would not slow the poison down, only weaken its intensity, and perhaps spread the effect over a larger area.

Look at it this way: if you were to pour straight ammonia into a shot glass and drink that, it would burn your throat instantly, and you would probably die. If you were to pour the same amount of ammonia into a large glass of water and drink that all at once, it would still burn you instantly, just not as badly. If you were to place a tiny drop of ammonia into a large glass of water, it would still instantly burn any skin it came into contact with, but the affect would be so minimal that you might not even notice. But then after a certain amount of time, the ammonia will not reconcentrate inside your body and burn you. That's ridiculous.

So this whole idea of Joffrey's supposedly more diluted poison fails across the board. It doesn't align with the text, nor scientific fact.

[John Suburbs]

4 hours ago, Ygrain said:

And what colour were the wines that you have drunk? I'd happily go with "deep purple" for quite a few of them. As does this chart: http://winefolly.com/review/complete-wine-color-chart/

Let's take a look at the quote about the colours that Clegane's Pup kindly collected:

• original wine - dark Arbor red
• poured over Tyrion  - red

• on Joff's chin - purple
• spilt on the dais - dark red
• the remains in the chalice - deep purple

So, before the poisoning, we get the description of both dark red and red, and after the poisoning, we have dark red and (deep) purple used interchangeably because that's what they are - dark red is a more general term, deep purple a more precise one.

 

No, we have different wines at different times. Dark Arbor red at the initial toast, hours earlier. Normal red running down over Tyrion. Then we have the same wine changing color within a matter of minutes. And at the end we have Tyrion pondering the unusualness of the wine that looked perfectly normal when he poured it into the chalice but is now deep purple.

 

4 hours ago, Ygrain said:

When I find the part which says that Cersei personally picked all the staff, which is why Shae cannot go, I'll let you know. But, you know, that's how it was done at medieval feasts - you had reliable folks who cut the stuff for you, or you helped yourself with your own dagger.

No, that is not how it was done. Look at all the feasts throughout the series; not once has anyone ever seen dishes being cut and plated on their tables. It would be a ridiculous spectacle to subject high lords and ladies to. They don't want grubby commoners in their midsts hacking away at food with sharp knives. Aside from the PW, here are some examples:

Quote

CoK, Bran III

"You did well, Bran," Ser Rodrick told him. "Lord Eddard would have been most proud." Down the table, Maester Luwin nodded his agreement as the servers began to carry in the food.

SoS, Sansa II

As the servants brought out a broth of leeks and mushrooms, Butterbumps began to juggle and Lady Olenna pushed herself forward to rest her elbows on the table.

Servants were coming and going and the Maidenvault echoed with the clatter of spoons and plates.

SoS, Catelyn VII

The wedding feast began with a thin leek soup, followed by a salad of green beans, onions, and beets, river pike poached in almond milk, mounds of mashed turnips that were cold before they reached the table..."

Edmure was kissing Roslyn and squeezing her hand. Elsewhere in the hall, Ser Marq Piper and Ser Danwell Frey played a drinking game, Lame Lothar said something musing to Ser Hosteen, one of the younger Freys juggled three daggers for a group of giggly girls, and Jinglebell sat on the floor sucking wine off his fingers. The servers were bringing out huge silver platters piled high with cuts of juicy, pink lamb...

 

Sorry, once again, but there is no evidence of your claim. You are basing your theory on nothing but your imagination.

8 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Really? (spoilered for length)

  Reveal hidden contents

“Your Grace.” Lord Tywin’s voice was impeccably correct. “They are bringing in the pie. Your sword is needed.”
“The pie?” Joffrey took his queen by the hand. “Come, my lady, it’s the pie.”
The guests stood, shouting and applauding and smashing their wine cups together as the great pie made its slow way down the length of the hall, wheeled along by a half-dozen beaming cooks. Two yards across it was, crusty and golden brown, and they could hear squeaks and thumpings coming from inside it.
Tyrion pulled himself back into his chair. All he needed now was for a dove to shit on him and his day would be complete. The wine had soaked through his doublet and smallclothes, and he could feel the wetness against his skin. He ought to change, but no one was permitted to leave the feast until the time came for the bedding ceremony. That was still a good twenty or thirty dishes off, he judged.
King Joffrey and his queen met the pie below the dais. As Joff drew his sword, Margaery laid a hand on his arm to restrain him. “Widow’s Wail was not meant for slicing pies.”
“True.” Joffrey lifted his voice. “Ser Ilyn, your sword!”
From the shadows at the back of the hall, Ser Ilyn Payne appeared. The specter at the feast, thought Tyrion as he watched the King’s justice stride forward, gaunt and grim. He had been too young to have known Ser Ilyn before he’d lost his tongue. He would have been a different man in those days, but now the silence is as much a part of him as those hollow eyes, that rusty chainmail shirt, and the greatsword on his back.
Ser Ilyn bowed before the king and queen, reached back over his shoulder, and drew forth six feet of ornate silver bright with runes. He knelt to offer the huge blade to Joffrey, hilt first; points of red fire winked from ruby eyes on the pommel, a chunk of dragonglass carved in the shape of a grinning skull.
Sansa stirred in her seat. “What sword is that?”
Tyrion’s eyes still stung from the wine. He blinked and looked again. Ser Ilyn’s greatsword was as long and wide as Ice, but it was too silverybright; Valyrian steel had a darkness to it, a smokiness in its soul. Sansa clutched his arm. “What has Ser Ilyn done with my father’s sword?”
I should have sent Ice back to Robb Stark, Tyrion thought. He glanced at his father, but Lord Tywin was watching the king.
Joffrey and Margaery joined hands to lift the greatsword and swung it down together in a silvery arc. When the piecrust broke, the doves burst forth in a swirl of white feathers, scattering in every direction, flapping for the windows and the rafters. A roar of delight went up from the benches, and the fiddlers and pipers in the gallery began to play a sprightly tune. Joff took his bride in his arms, and whirled her around merrily.
A serving man placed a slice of hot pigeon pie in front of Tyrion and covered it with a spoon of lemon cream.

Please, find me the part where the approach of the serving man is described. Absolutely no servants are mentioned, the pie is cut 
(which is after it is wheeled slowly), and then, suddenly, there is a serving man. Did he teleport himself in front of Tyrion somehow? Or do you propose that the whole time the big pie was being wheeled in, there were servant hovering with the plates in their hands before the guests? 

Uninportant bits of information are left out. They are so unimportant that you don't even notice they are not there because the narrative runs so smoothly without them. 

The servant comes from behind Tyrion as he is facing forward watching Joffrey twirl Margaery, merrily.  Do you imagine he has eyes in the back of his head? So no, Tyrion is not going to see him approach, but he would most definitely notice if some burley pastry chef shoved the guests at the high table aside so he could start cutting pies right there instead of doing it in the kitchen like any sane person would.

By the time the pigeons were released, there were servants at the ready with pies in hand. Lady O could very easily see to these details herself, since she is already known as a micromanager, especially when it comes to food ("The cheese will be served when I want it served, and I want it served now." Also notice in this scene how there isn't a gaping cheesemonger in her face with a huge knife in his hands and a giant wheel of cheese to cut up.) It also gives her an excuse to be standing there at that exact moment, making sure that this formal even in her granddaughter's wedding feast goes off without a hitch.

Sorry, but your theory is bunk. You've been pwned.

On ‎10‎/‎19‎/‎2017 at 6:32 PM, Tygett Greenshield said:

I give up it was the wine. Shit plot, shit books.

No, extraordinary plot, where the truth is spelled out in facts but is hidden behind the reader's misinterpretation and cultural biases.

The text is clear: Joffrey's wine was more concentrated than Cressen's and he drank a massively greater quantity.

I'll let the victim speak for himself: "It's, kof, the pie, noth -- kof, pie."

[Ygrain]

4 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

No, we have different wines at different times. Dark Arbor red at the initial toast, hours earlier. Normal red running down over Tyrion.

Indeed, the brand of wine is named only during the initial toast, but there is no textual evidence that they switched to a different one. Unless you can prove so, they still are drinking Arbor red. Dark. 

4 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Then we have the same wine changing color within a matter of minutes.

Bullshit. The colour of the wine that Tyrion fills the chalice with is not stated, so it cannot change. Then, after the cutting of the pie, one and the same wine is described as purple - dark red - deep purple, in this particular order, so do you propose now that the wine is a chameleon and switches colours from purple to dark red to deep purple? Dark purple can be described as dark red because it is a shade of red.

4 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

And at the end we have Tyrion pondering the unusualness of the wine that looked perfectly normal when he poured it into the chalice but is now deep purple.

That is a lie, dear ser. He never makes any observation about the wine looking unusual or different from the one he poured in. NEVER. 

Also:

10 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Cressen's half-cup with a tiny "flake" of a crystal. Joffrey's three-foot chalice, drained significantly from "three quarters full", with a full-sized crystal in it. We also have to realize is that the chalice is not three feet of nothing but cup -- it must have a base and a fairly long stem, otherwise Joffrey would never be able to hoist it one-handed. I would guess it holds maybe four or five times a normal goblet.

“Let the cups be filled!” Joffrey proclaimed, when the gods had been given their due. His cupbearer poured a whole flagon of dark Arbor red into the golden wedding chalice that Lord Tyrell had given him that morning. The king had to use both hands to lift it.

...

He claimed a flagon from a serving girl and filled the goblet three-quarters full. “No, on your knees, dwarf.” Kneeling, Tyrion raised up the heavy cup, wondering if he was about to get a second bath. But Joffrey took the wedding chalice one-handed, drank deep, and set it on the table.

So either the flagon that Tyrion uses is smaller (quite possibly, because they hardly have a unified size of flagons), or Joffrey is less careful about spilling it. Either way, a wee bit bigger.

4 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

No, that is not how it was done. Look at all the feasts throughout the series; not once has anyone ever seen dishes being cut and plated on their tables. It would be a ridiculous spectacle to subject high lords and ladies to. They don't want grubby commoners in their midsts hacking away at food with sharp knives. Aside from the PW, here are some examples:

Nice examples, only they show what I've been claiming the whole time: food is brought in in huge common portions, and not every details is mentioned. For example, did Catelyn helped herself, or did someone serve the food for her? It is not stated. Your quotes do not prove your points, and claiming that the servants at the royal feast would be grubby is a fanfiction. Especially when they're hand-picked:

“My lady,” said Shae wistfully. “Couldn’t I come serve at table? I so want to see the pigeons fly out of the pie.”
Sansa looked at her uncertainly. “The queen has chosen all the servers.”

BTW:

Four master pyromancers conjured up beasts of living flame to tear at each other with fiery claws whilst the serving men ladeled out bowls of blandissory, a mixture of beef broth and boiled wine sweetened with honey and dotted with blanched almonds and chunks of capon.

I'm not a native speaker, so please, enlighten me: does "ladel" (ladle?) mean they were bringing pre-filled bowls, or filling the bowls right there in front of the guests?

4 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

The servant comes from behind Tyrion as he is facing forward watching Joffrey twirl Margaery, merrily.  Do you imagine he has eyes in the back of his head? So no, Tyrion is not going to see him approach, but he would most definitely notice if some burley pastry chef shoved the guests at the high table aside so he could start cutting pies right there instead of doing it in the kitchen like any sane person would.

1) Please, show a quote that the servers are approaching from behind as present-day waiters do. 

2) the guests are sitting along one side of the table, the other is free. There is no need to approach from behind because they can approach from the front. They can bring  whole common dishes (so that the individual portions couldn't be poisoned, you know), and cut them right there in front of the guests, so that everyone could see. Because that's the way things were done. Until you can pull a quote about pre-cut pieces from the kitchen, or that special serving table you like to devise, that's how they were generally done. Servants bring in huge platters and common bowls from which they serve the guests of honour, less important people help themselves on their own.

4 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

By the time the pigeons were released, there were servants at the ready with pies in hand. Lady O could very easily see to these details herself, since she is already known as a micromanager, especially when it comes to food ("The cheese will be served when I want it served, and I want it served now." Also notice in this scene how there isn't a gaping cheesemonger in her face with a huge knife in his hands and a giant wheel of cheese to cut up.) It also gives her an excuse to be standing there at that exact moment, making sure that this formal even in her granddaughter's wedding feast goes off without a hitch.

Fanfiction again. Comparing Olenna's private meal with a huge feast held by someone else is not even apples and pears but a blueberry versus a watermellon. 

4 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Sorry, but your theory is bunk. You've been pwned.

If words were coin, I'm sure you would be a billionaire.

[Ralphis Baratheon]

I'

6 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

You've been pwned.

LOL really?

[Ygrain]

Just a side note, on the colour of Joff's face - it is not mentioned in ASOS but AFFC:

“Girl?” Cersei had overlooked the second body. She strode to the bed, flung aside the heap of bloody coverlets, and there she was, naked, cold, and pink . . . save for her face, which had turned as black as Joff’s had at his wedding feast.

[John Suburbs]

On ‎10‎/‎21‎/‎2017 at 3:22 AM, Ygrain said:

Indeed, the brand of wine is named only during the initial toast, but there is no textual evidence that they switched to a different one. Unless you can prove so, they still are drinking Arbor red. Dark. 

lol, textual evidence. That's rich. You with your pies being cut up at the head table, and you ask me for textual evidence.

Amber Red, dark, but not purple.

On ‎10‎/‎21‎/‎2017 at 3:22 AM, Ygrain said:

Bullshit. The colour of the wine that Tyrion fills the chalice with is not stated, so it cannot change. Then, after the cutting of the pie, one and the same wine is described as purple - dark red - deep purple, in this particular order, so do you propose now that the wine is a chameleon and switches colours from purple to dark red to deep purple? Dark purple can be described as dark red because it is a shade of red.

That is a lie, dear ser. He never makes any observation about the wine looking unusual or different from the one he poured in. NEVER. 

 

Le sigh.

Quote

There was still a half-inch of deep purple wine in the bottom of it. Tyrion considered it for a moment, then poured it on the floor.

Is he considering the bouquet? The nose? Of course not, he is considering the observation he has just made, that the wine is now deep purple.

On ‎10‎/‎21‎/‎2017 at 3:22 AM, Ygrain said:

“Let the cups be filled!” Joffrey proclaimed, when the gods had been given their due. His cupbearer poured a whole flagon of dark Arbor red into the golden wedding chalice that Lord Tyrell had given him that morning. The king had to use both hands to lift it.

...

He claimed a flagon from a serving girl and filled the goblet three-quarters full. “No, on your knees, dwarf.” Kneeling, Tyrion raised up the heavy cup, wondering if he was about to get a second bath. But Joffrey took the wedding chalice one-handed, drank deep, and set it on the table.

So either the flagon that Tyrion uses is smaller (quite possibly, because they hardly have a unified size of flagons), or Joffrey is less careful about spilling it. Either way, a wee bit bigger.

It means that even three-quarters full, Joffrey can still lift the chalice one-handed. That gives the lie to the impression people have that the chalice is three feet of nothing but cup. First of all, if there was a flagon large enough to fill a three-foot cup, then it would require one beefy serving girl to carry it. Secondly, Joffrey would have to be glamored to appear as a skinning boy when in fact he is Jonny Atlas able to hoist several liters of wine and a solid gold cup with one hand.

 

On ‎10‎/‎21‎/‎2017 at 3:22 AM, Ygrain said:

Nice examples, only they show what I've been claiming the whole time: food is brought in in huge common portions, and not every details is mentioned. For example, did Catelyn helped herself, or did someone serve the food for her? It is not stated. Your quotes do not prove your points, and claiming that the servants at the royal feast would be grubby is a fanfiction. Especially when they're hand-picked:

No, it means that no dishes are being cut and plated at the tables where guests are eating. Sorry, but this whole pie-cutting idea of yours is nonsense. To paraphrase you: no textual support.

It's as if I were to argue that the wine could not have been poisoned because then Joffrey's wine-taster would have died too. And you would say, "What wine-taster?" And I would say, "the wine taster that was a common facet of medieval life -- all the kings had them. It's not mentioned anywhere in the text because it is such an unnecessary detail, but he sipped Joffrey's wine first and then went his merry way, only to be then removed by Tywin and executed so he could frame Tyrion for the murder." No text, no support, no proof, no logical consistency, but this is a work of fiction and GRRM can do whatever he wants in his books.

On ‎10‎/‎21‎/‎2017 at 3:22 AM, Ygrain said:

Four master pyromancers conjured up beasts of living flame to tear at each other with fiery claws whilst the serving men ladeled out bowls of blandissory, a mixture of beef broth and boiled wine sweetened with honey and dotted with blanched almonds and chunks of capon.

I'm not a native speaker, so please, enlighten me: does "ladel" (ladle?) mean they were bringing pre-filled bowls, or filling the bowls right there in front of the guests?

I'm not sure, where is that from? Qarth? Soup is probably an exception because it is a lot less messy to spoon it into bowls at table rather than carry full bowls from the kitchen. But they wouldn't plunk a huge cauldron of boiling soup on the table and start ladeling it from there. They would have one server place the bowls, another holding the soup and a third with the ladle. The fact remains that in Westeros, no pies, meat, or any other food is cut and plated at table. NEVER. That is purely your imagination.

This reminds me of the guy at argued that Lady O could not know which pie was Tyrion's because they would have slid all over the trolley from the kitchen to the throne room. And I had to reread the chapter and look back at all the other feasts to find any mention of these trolleys, and when I told them there were none he insisted that just because it's never mentioned in the text doesn't mean they don't exist, so unless I can prove there were no trolleys then Lady O could not have done the pie, tra la la la la...

On ‎10‎/‎21‎/‎2017 at 3:22 AM, Ygrain said:

1) Please, show a quote that the servers are approaching from behind as present-day waiters do. 

I'll show you one when you show me the one about the pies being cut at the table.

On ‎10‎/‎21‎/‎2017 at 3:22 AM, Ygrain said:

2) the guests are sitting along one side of the table, the other is free. There is no need to approach from behind because they can approach from the front. They can bring  whole common dishes (so that the individual portions couldn't be poisoned, you know), and cut them right there in front of the guests, so that everyone could see. Because that's the way things were done. Until you can pull a quote about pre-cut pieces from the kitchen, or that special serving table you like to devise, that's how they were generally done. Servants bring in huge platters and common bowls from which they serve the guests of honour, less important people help themselves on their own.

So instead of just placing dishes directly in front of the guests in a polite, dignified way, they are going to reach all the way across the table, which is so deep that Tyrion has to climb into his seat just to reach the chalice. And this is if, as would be logical, the head table is not raised on the dais as well.

As I showed conclusively above, this is not how things were done. Servants brought individual dishes to the guests and then cleared the dishes. For someone who claims to have all of this textual evidence, you sure make a lot of bold claims with no evidence at all.

On ‎10‎/‎21‎/‎2017 at 3:22 AM, Ygrain said:

Fanfiction again. Comparing Olenna's private meal with a huge feast held by someone else is not even apples and pears but a blueberry versus a watermellon. 

It establishes Lady O's character as a micromanager, especially when it comes to food.

[John Suburbs]

On ‎10‎/‎21‎/‎2017 at 3:58 AM, Ralphis Baratheon said:

I'

LOL really?

Yes, pies being cut up at the table. Didn't happen. Has never happened, anywhere, not at any feast, large or small, morning, noon or night. Cleanly and concisely proven in the text. Pwned.

 

[Clegane'sPup]

On 10/20/2017 at 4:44 PM, John Suburbs said:

Cressen's half-cup with a tiny "flake" of a crystal.

Sorry John, I can't go with half cup or the tiny flake and I'm going to go seek out the text.

[Ygrain]

20 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Yes, pies being cut up at the table. Didn't happen. Has never happened, anywhere, not at any feast, large or small, morning, noon or night. Cleanly and concisely proven in the text. Pwned.

 

The wedding guests gorged on cod cakes and winter squash, hills of neeps and great round wheels of cheese, on smoking slabs of mutton and beef ribs charred almost black, and lastly on three great wedding pies, as wide across as wagon wheels, their flaky crusts stuffed to bursting with carrots, onions, turnips, parsnips, mushrooms, and chunks of seasoned pork swimming in a savory brown gravy. Ramsay hacked off slices with his falchion and Wyman Manderly himself served, presenting the first steaming portions to Roose Bolton and his fat Frey wife, the next to Ser Hosteen and Ser Aenys, the sons of Walder Frey.

 

Yeah, totally no pie cutting happening anywhere. Sure.

Also, note the "great round wheels of cheese" and "hills of neeps" - i.e., huge common portions for everyone to help themselves from.

 

Some more occasions of common portions on the tables:

• Winterfell feast with Robert, AGOT:

There was still half a honeyed chicken in the center of the table. Jon reached out to tear off a leg, then had a better idea. He knifed the bird whole and let the carcass slide to the floor between his legs. Ghost ripped into it in savage silence.

Ben Stark laughed. “As I feared. Ah, well. I believe I was younger than you the first time I got truly and sincerely drunk.” He snagged a roasted onion, dripping brown with gravy, from a nearby trencher and bit into it.

• The feast at the tourney of the Hand, AGOT:

Sansa and Septa Mordane were given places of high honor, to the left of the raised dais where the king himself sat beside his queen. When Prince Joffrey seated himself to her right, she felt her throat tighten.....All the while the courses came and went. A thick soup of barley and venison. Salads of sweetgrass and spinach and plums, sprinkled with crushed nuts. Snails in honey and garlic. Sansa had never eaten snails before; Joffrey showed her how to get the snail out of the shell, and fed her the first sweet morsel himself. Then came trout fresh from the river, baked in clay; her prince helped her crack open the hard casing to expose the flaky white flesh within. And when the meat course was brought out, he served her himself, slicing a queen’s portion from the joint, smiling as he laid it on her plate.

• Tywin feasting his bannermen, AGOT:

Lord Tywin took his evening meal with his chief knights and lords bannermen, his great crimson-and-gold standard waving overhead from a lofty pike....The cooks were serving the meat course: five suckling pigs, skin seared and crackling, a different fruit in every mouth.(= the pigs are served whole) ..... “Oh, surely you can save me a peasant or two, Father,” Tyrion replied. “Not too many, I wouldn’t want to be greedy.” He filled his wine cup and watched a serving man carve into the pig.

• Harvest feast at Winterfell, ACOK:

Such food Bran had never seen; course after course after course, so much that he could not manage more than a bite or two of each dish. There were great joints of aurochs roasted with leeks, venison pies chunky with carrots, bacon, and mushrooms, mutton chops sauced in honey and cloves, savory duck, peppered boar, goose, skewers of pigeon and capon, beef-and-barley stew, cold fruit soup. Lord Wyman had brought twenty casks of fish from White Harbor packed in salt and seaweed; whitefish and winkles, crabs and mussels, clams, herring, cod, salmon, lobster and lampreys. There was black bread and honeycakes and oaten biscuits; there were turnips and pease and beets, beans and squash and huge red onions; there were baked apples and berry tarts and pears poached in strongwine. Wheels of white cheese were set at every table, above and below the salt, and flagons of hot spice wine and chilled autumn ale were passed up and down the tables....The serving men brought every dish to Bran first, that he might take the lord’s portion if he chose.

• Feast at Renly's camp, ACOK:

Of food there was plenty. The war had not touched the fabled bounty of Highgarden. While singers sang and tumblers tumbled, they began with pears poached in wine, and went on to tiny savory fish rolled in salt and cooked crisp, and capons stuffed with onions and mushrooms. There were great loaves of brown bread, mounds of turnips and sweetcorn and pease, immense hams and roast geese and trenchers dripping full of venison stewed with beer and barley. For the sweet, Lord Caswell’s servants brought down trays of pastries from his castle kitchens, cream swans and spun-sugar unicorns, lemon cakes in the shape of roses, spiced honey biscuits and blackberry tarts, apple crisps and wheels of buttery cheese.

 

- In other words: plenty of examples of food served in huge portions from which people either help themselves or are served, and their behaviour never shows that the dishes are supposed to be served differently.

[Ygrain]

21 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

lol, textual evidence. That's rich. You with your pies being cut up at the head table, and you ask me for textual evidence.

See above.

21 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Amber Red, dark, but not purple.

So we have three kinds of wine now? White, red and purple? Check that chart of wine colours I linked previously. Some red wines are coloured purple.

21 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Le sigh.

Go sigh at GRRM's door, it was him who wrote one and the same wine first purple when running down Joff's chin and then dark red when running down the dais. What is the man thinking to confuse you so, tut, tut.

21 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Is he considering the bouquet? The nose? Of course not, he is considering the observation he has just made, that the wine is now deep purple.

Not true. The wine has already been described as purple a couple of paragraphs earlier, when it's running down Joff's chin. 

21 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

No, it means that no dishes are being cut and plated at the tables where guests are eating. Sorry, but this whole pie-cutting idea of yours is nonsense. To paraphrase you: no textual support.

See above.

21 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

I'm not sure, where is that from? Qarth? Soup is probably an exception because it is a lot less messy to spoon it into bowls at table rather than carry full bowls from the kitchen. But they wouldn't plunk a huge cauldron of boiling soup on the table and start ladeling it from there. They would have one server place the bowls, another holding the soup and a third with the ladle. The fact remains that in Westeros, no pies, meat, or any other food is cut and plated at table. NEVER. That is purely your imagination.

See the post above.

And FYI, that description of soup being ladled is right from Joffrey's wedding feast.

21 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

I'll show you one when you show me the one about the pies being cut at the table.

I believe I just have, so your turn.

21 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

So instead of just placing dishes directly in front of the guests in a polite, dignified way, they are going to reach all the way across the table, which is so deep that Tyrion has to climb into his seat just to reach the chalice. And this is if, as would be logical, the head table is not raised on the dais as well.

The table is not so deep, it's Tyrion's legs and arms so short that he cannot reach where Joff reached comfortably.

21 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

As I showed conclusively above, this is not how things were done. Servants brought individual dishes to the guests and then cleared the dishes. For someone who claims to have all of this textual evidence, you sure make a lot of bold claims with no evidence at all.

Lol.

But by all means, do continue making bold claims revealing how little you remember from the books.

21 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

It establishes Lady O's character as a micromanager, especially when it comes to food.

Unless you have a quote that Olenna was messing with Cersei's job to prepare the feast, I call fanfiction.

[John Suburbs]

21 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Sorry John, I can't go with half cup or the tiny flake and I'm going to go seek out the text.

Um, well, that's what it says:

Quote

Ser Davos' cup was before him, still half-full of sour red. He found a hard flake of crystal in his sleeve, held it tight between thumb and forefinger as he reached for the cup.

So a half-cup with a "flake" of crystal, vs. let's say, a six-cup chalice already significantly drained from "three quarters full." Sure, all these measurements are inexact, but at the end of the day, we have Cressen's wine appearing as normal-looking wine and Joffrey's as deep purple. So the weight of evidence points to Joffrey's wine being the more concentrated, not Cressen's.

[John Suburbs]

2 hours ago, Ygrain said:

The wedding guests gorged on cod cakes and winter squash, hills of neeps and great round wheels of cheese, on smoking slabs of mutton and beef ribs charred almost black, and lastly on three great wedding pies, as wide across as wagon wheels, their flaky crusts stuffed to bursting with carrots, onions, turnips, parsnips, mushrooms, and chunks of seasoned pork swimming in a savory brown gravy. Ramsay hacked off slices with his falchion and Wyman Manderly himself served, presenting the first steaming portions to Roose Bolton and his fat Frey wife, the next to Ser Hosteen and Ser Aenys, the sons of Walder Frey.

 

Yeah, totally no pie cutting happening anywhere. Sure.

Also, note the "great round wheels of cheese" and "hills of neeps" - i.e., huge common portions for everyone to help themselves from.

 

Some more occasions of common portions on the tables:

• Winterfell feast with Robert, AGOT:

There was still half a honeyed chicken in the center of the table. Jon reached out to tear off a leg, then had a better idea. He knifed the bird whole and let the carcass slide to the floor between his legs. Ghost ripped into it in savage silence.

Ben Stark laughed. “As I feared. Ah, well. I believe I was younger than you the first time I got truly and sincerely drunk.” He snagged a roasted onion, dripping brown with gravy, from a nearby trencher and bit into it.

• The feast at the tourney of the Hand, AGOT:

Sansa and Septa Mordane were given places of high honor, to the left of the raised dais where the king himself sat beside his queen. When Prince Joffrey seated himself to her right, she felt her throat tighten.....All the while the courses came and went. A thick soup of barley and venison. Salads of sweetgrass and spinach and plums, sprinkled with crushed nuts. Snails in honey and garlic. Sansa had never eaten snails before; Joffrey showed her how to get the snail out of the shell, and fed her the first sweet morsel himself. Then came trout fresh from the river, baked in clay; her prince helped her crack open the hard casing to expose the flaky white flesh within. And when the meat course was brought out, he served her himself, slicing a queen’s portion from the joint, smiling as he laid it on her plate.

• Tywin feasting his bannermen, AGOT:

Lord Tywin took his evening meal with his chief knights and lords bannermen, his great crimson-and-gold standard waving overhead from a lofty pike....The cooks were serving the meat course: five suckling pigs, skin seared and crackling, a different fruit in every mouth.(= the pigs are served whole) ..... “Oh, surely you can save me a peasant or two, Father,” Tyrion replied. “Not too many, I wouldn’t want to be greedy.” He filled his wine cup and watched a serving man carve into the pig.

• Harvest feast at Winterfell, ACOK:

Such food Bran had never seen; course after course after course, so much that he could not manage more than a bite or two of each dish. There were great joints of aurochs roasted with leeks, venison pies chunky with carrots, bacon, and mushrooms, mutton chops sauced in honey and cloves, savory duck, peppered boar, goose, skewers of pigeon and capon, beef-and-barley stew, cold fruit soup. Lord Wyman had brought twenty casks of fish from White Harbor packed in salt and seaweed; whitefish and winkles, crabs and mussels, clams, herring, cod, salmon, lobster and lampreys. There was black bread and honeycakes and oaten biscuits; there were turnips and pease and beets, beans and squash and huge red onions; there were baked apples and berry tarts and pears poached in strongwine. Wheels of white cheese were set at every table, above and below the salt, and flagons of hot spice wine and chilled autumn ale were passed up and down the tables....The serving men brought every dish to Bran first, that he might take the lord’s portion if he chose.

• Feast at Renly's camp, ACOK:

Of food there was plenty. The war had not touched the fabled bounty of Highgarden. While singers sang and tumblers tumbled, they began with pears poached in wine, and went on to tiny savory fish rolled in salt and cooked crisp, and capons stuffed with onions and mushrooms. There were great loaves of brown bread, mounds of turnips and sweetcorn and pease, immense hams and roast geese and trenchers dripping full of venison stewed with beer and barley. For the sweet, Lord Caswell’s servants brought down trays of pastries from his castle kitchens, cream swans and spun-sugar unicorns, lemon cakes in the shape of roses, spiced honey biscuits and blackberry tarts, apple crisps and wheels of buttery cheese.

 

- In other words: plenty of examples of food served in huge portions from which people either help themselves or are served, and their behaviour never shows that the dishes are supposed to be served differently.

Yes, exactly what I'm saying, Servants bringing food to the table, already cut and already plated. Sure, commoners down below have to serve themselves, and Ramsey hacking up pies for a roomful of fighting men hardly qualifies as a formal state dinner. No cutting at tables, not prepping at tables, platters of pre-cut meats and pastries. As I said, the soup is an exception: it makes more sense to ladle it at table than carry umpteen bowls of hot soup through the crowd.

At none of these events do you see kitchen serfs marching up to the tables of the high and mighty, who are unarmed and unarmored at an event like a royal wedding, to start slicing up pies with sharp knives. The closest you have is at Tywin's armed encampment full of soldiers with swords and wearing plate and chain, and we can't even say exactly where this serving man is. He is most certainly not in the center of the table where Tywin is trying to discuss the military situation with his commanders.

I'm still waiting for you text that has this pieman slicing pies at the head table right where Tyrion should be able to see. What you are trying to argue is that in a chapter where GRRM has given us 2000 words or more describing the food, the servants serving the food, the guests eating the food, what they were wearing, how they acted, everything he saw, heard and even thought, GRRM cannot add another half-sentence to say "After the pieman cut the pie at the table, a serving man place a slice of hot pigeon pie in front of Tyrion." But then, instead of just having Joffrey drink his wine and die, he is fine with giving us another page-and-a-half of completely unnecessary action and dialogue that has no relevance, no point, no purpose, no meaning -- just extra words to write and print and read.

 

 

[John Suburbs]

2 hours ago, Ygrain said:

So we have three kinds of wine now? White, red and purple? Check that chart of wine colours I linked previously. Some red wines are coloured purple.

Go sigh at GRRM's door, it was him who wrote one and the same wine first purple when running down Joff's chin and then dark red when running down the dais. What is the man thinking to confuse you so, tut, tut.

Not true. The wine has already been described as purple a couple of paragraphs earlier, when it's running down Joff's chin. 

Unless it is some kind of speciality wine, like plum, then it is called either red or white. So if the deep purple wine had looked the same as it had all along, then Tyrion would just think "red wine." He doesn't. The wine is not "deep purple", a very odd color. Rationalize all you want, but unless wine has the truly distinctive color of purple, then it is simply described as red wine. Sub-millimeter sheens of red win set against pale white skin and illuminated by orange torchlight will of course appear purple. But to think that people would see clearly purple wine and say it is red is, once again, contorting facts out of all proportion.

 

2 hours ago, Ygrain said:

I believe I just have, so your turn.

You haven't even come close. You have no text to back you claim, and no rational argument to make as to why common kitchen staff would be allowed to wield sharp knives in and around the nobility, blocking their views of the dancing and entertainments and in general inserting their unwashed selves into the center of the most formal event of the era, when all of this pie-cutting can be done quickly and easily in the kitchen so that guests are served immediately after the ceremony -- as evidenced by the text.

 

2 hours ago, Ygrain said:

The table is not so deep, it's Tyrion's legs and arms so short that he cannot reach where Joff reached comfortably.

And where is your text for that? Here is my proof that servants are behind the table at the actual feast we are discussing. I'll take it as slowly as I can, but this requires concentration so please read carefully:

Quote

Tyrion turned in his seat. Joffrey was almost upon him, red-faced and staggering, wine slopping over the rim of the great golden wedding chalice he carried in both hands.

So unless you want to argue that Tyrion's chair was facing backward and Joffrey is on top of the table, then this is all happening behind the table.

Next quote:

Quote

He had to crawl under the table to find the thing. "Good, now fill it with wine." He claimed a flagon from a serving girl and filled the goblet three quarters full.

So now, are you going to argue that your invisible text has Tryion crawling all the way under the table, coming up on the other side, filling the chalice, and either crawling back under or climbing over top to hand it to Joffrey? Can Tyrion, who has to climb into his seat to reach it only a few moments later, able to reach across this "narrow" table to hand it to Joff, all while on his knees no less?

 

 

[Universal Sword Donor]

On 10/21/2017 at 2:22 AM, Ygrain said:

BTW:

Four master pyromancers conjured up beasts of living flame to tear at each other with fiery claws whilst the serving men ladeled out bowls of blandissory, a mixture of beef broth and boiled wine sweetened with honey and dotted with blanched almonds and chunks of capon.

I'm not a native speaker, so please, enlighten me: does "ladel" (ladle?) mean they were bringing pre-filled bowls, or filling the bowls right there in front of the guests?

As it turns out, I am a native English speaker. You cannot ladle something out unless you take a ladle and scoop out something viscous or liquid-based out of a container. That is literally the definition of ladle, but to be fair I've never seen it spelled that way. In any way, shape or form the blandissory was being doled out to the guests from a central container into their bowl unless GRRM is subverting the English language along with every trope.

[Wild Bill]

Urban Dictionary is fun...

[Ygrain]

8 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Yes, exactly what I'm saying, Servants bringing food to the table, already cut and already plated. Sure, commoners down below have to serve themselves, and Ramsey hacking up pies for a roomful of fighting men hardly qualifies as a formal state dinner. No cutting at tables, not prepping at tables, platters of pre-cut meats and pastries. As I said, the soup is an exception: it makes more sense to ladle it at table than carry umpteen bowls of hot soup through the crowd.

At none of these events do you see kitchen serfs marching up to the tables of the high and mighty, who are unarmed and unarmored at an event like a royal wedding, to start slicing up pies with sharp knives. The closest you have is at Tywin's armed encampment full of soldiers with swords and wearing plate and chain, and we can't even say exactly where this serving man is. He is most certainly not in the center of the table where Tywin is trying to discuss the military situation with his commanders.

I'm still waiting for you text that has this pieman slicing pies at the head table right where Tyrion should be able to see. What you are trying to argue is that in a chapter where GRRM has given us 2000 words or more describing the food, the servants serving the food, the guests eating the food, what they were wearing, how they acted, everything he saw, heard and even thought, GRRM cannot add another half-sentence to say "After the pieman cut the pie at the table, a serving man place a slice of hot pigeon pie in front of Tyrion." But then, instead of just having Joffrey drink his wine and die, he is fine with giving us another page-and-a-half of completely unnecessary action and dialogue that has no relevance, no point, no purpose, no meaning -- just extra words to write and print and read.

 

 

Man, you need to work on your reading comprehension. There are bolded parts which clearly say that the stuff is brought in WHOLE  or in big heaps, which means it's ONE huge platter for people to take from or to be served from. While you are at it, you might want to start to ponder the scene in Tywin's tent with a serving man cutting the pig and what it means when GRRM emphasizes that Joffrey or Wyman Manderly serve THEMSELVES.

But since you are unable ot unwilling or both... I'm leaving it to the readers of the thread to see for themselves how food is served in Westeros.

[Wild Bill]

6 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

But since you are unable ot unwilling or both... I'm leaving it to the readers of the thread to see for themselves how food is served in Westeros.

Well, I am sure there must be servers and such, introducing themselves to create a false familiarity to create an artificial situation to enhance the restaurant's rep, and the server's tip.

I think John Suburbs (I mean, really!, good food in the burbs?), is used to fine dining = a waitron offering "the Strangler" (as advertised on TV) as the sine qua non for fine not so fine dining.

As an aside, not wanting to go off topic, do servers get decent remuneration? Grrm doesn't appear to talk about this. Bother.

[The Bard of Banefort]

While the Tyrells would certainly grieve for Margaery, I imagine they would probably try to betroth one of her cousins to Tommen. Whether or not that would have been good enough for Tywin is the question. 

[John Suburbs]

16 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Man, you need to work on your reading comprehension. There are bolded parts which clearly say that the stuff is brought in WHOLE  or in big heaps, which means it's ONE huge platter for people to take from or to be served from. While you are at it, you might want to start to ponder the scene in Tywin's tent with a serving man cutting the pig and what it means when GRRM emphasizes that Joffrey or Wyman Manderly serve THEMSELVES.

But since you are unable ot unwilling or both... I'm leaving it to the readers of the thread to see for themselves how food is served in Westeros.

Sorry, grain, you got nothing here. There is not one example of a servant cutting pies or anything else at a table where high lords and ladies are dining.

And since we know that "a serving man placed a slice of hot pigeon pie in front of Tyrion.." then nobody is serving themselves either, unless you think that everybody else is serving themselves and only Tyrion has his handed to him, which in my book would be proof positive that this is the one Lady O wants him to have.

Plus, I think you may be laboring under the delusion that I insist that this is the only way that Lady O could poison the pie. I'm only suggesting it as the most sensible, least-complicated method. If you want to insist that there is a pieman cutting pie on the head table, fine, then we can go with Lady O's trusted servant to slip the poison in just before he serves it to Tyrion. I have no text to support that, but since you've already thrown text out the window, let's go with that.

 

Also, I'll point out that your own theory has collapsed in upon itself. On the one hand, you say that servants cutting food at table is so common that it would gum up the text just to mention, but then your "evidence" has Martin mentioning it over and over again. So why is it only a problem to point out these plainly visible sights at the Purple Wedding and nowhere else?