Harvey Weinstein: Why is it about so much more than Harvey Weinstein?

[Darth Richard II]

Oh and that Nickolodean guy is one fucked up individual. Why he's not in jail is beyond me.

[Dr. Pepper]

Here's a good example for why it's so dangerous to tie sexual harrassment and assault with sexual attraction.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/oct/27/canada-judge-says-sexual-assault-victim-may-have-been-flattered-by-the-incident

A judge in Quebec told a victim she should have been flattered for the attention because she's overweight, although she has a pretty face.  

Quote

A judge in the Canadian province of Quebec has come under fire after remarking in court that a 17-year-old who said she was sexual assaulted was a “little overweight but has a pretty face” and that she may have been a “bit flattered” by the attention.

Helps contribute to rape culture.  

[maarsen]

14 minutes ago, Dr. Pepper said:

Here's a good example for why it's so dangerous to tie sexual harrassment and assault with sexual attraction.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/oct/27/canada-judge-says-sexual-assault-victim-may-have-been-flattered-by-the-incident

A judge in Quebec told a victim she should have been flattered for the attention because she's overweight, although she has a pretty face.  

Helps contribute to rape culture.  

We had worse comments than that from Canadian judges. We had one who said the victim should have worked harder to keep her legs closed. 

[drawkcabi]

This is extremely minuscule compared to the torturous harassment and worse others have gone through, but when I was a kid, around 12 years old there was a Chinese restaurant in the same shopping center as my parents' restaurant.

I was overweight and the owner had a serious fascination/fetish for my doughy upper arms. Whenever he saw me he made a bee line for me and like magnets his hands went right to one of my arms and he'd squeeze it like he was kneading dough.

I hated it. It made me more than uncomfortable and just so weirded out. I told my mom about this and she first thought it was funny then she told me to tell him to get his hands the hell off me if i didn't like it. I was 12. I couldn't speak to an adult like that. I was looking for someone to make him stop for me. Not only did that not happen, once in a rare while I'd be sent to his restaurant on an errand, when I'd complain about not wanting to go and why I'd just be told again to tell him to stop if I didn't like it. The guy was so brazen too he'd do it in front of my mother, my brother, other people.

Whenever he was around I'd get anxiety attacks and i'd do whatever I could to avoid him.

People shouldn't be able to do that, and people need to listen to others when they are trying to tell them people are doing things they shouldn't be doing.

[Dr. Pepper]

42 minutes ago, drawkcabi said:

This is extremely minuscule compared to the torturous harassment and worse others have gone through, but when I was a kid, around 12 years old there was a Chinese restaurant in the same shopping center as my parents' restaurant.

I was overweight and the owner had a serious fascination/fetish for my doughy upper arms. Whenever he saw me he made a bee line for me and like magnets his hands went right to one of my arms and he'd squeeze it like he was kneading dough.

I hated it. It made me more than uncomfortable and just so weirded out. I told my mom about this and she first thought it was funny then she told me to tell him to get his hands the hell off me if i didn't like it. I was 12. I couldn't speak to an adult like that. I was looking for someone to make him stop for me. Not only did that not happen, once in a rare while I'd be sent to his restaurant on an errand, when I'd complain about not wanting to go and why I'd just be told again to tell him to stop if I didn't like it. The guy was so brazen too he'd do it in front of my mother, my brother, other people.

Whenever he was around I'd get anxiety attacks and i'd do whatever I could to avoid him.

People shouldn't be able to do that, and people need to listen to others when they are trying to tell them people are doing things they shouldn't be doing.

I'm really sorry that happened to you.  It's not miniscule. Someone touched your body without your consent and did so in a way that harmed you and it was made worse by people not protecting you from it.  It may not have been sexual, but it was still harmful and it's not right.  

[drawkcabi]

1 hour ago, Dr. Pepper said:

I'm really sorry that happened to you.  It's not miniscule. Someone touched your body without your consent and did so in a way that harmed you and it was made worse by people not protecting you from it.  It may not have been sexual, but it was still harmful and it's not right.  

Thank you. 

[mankytoes]

7 hours ago, Dr. Pepper said:

Here's a good example for why it's so dangerous to tie sexual harrassment and assault with sexual attraction.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/oct/27/canada-judge-says-sexual-assault-victim-may-have-been-flattered-by-the-incident

A judge in Quebec told a victim she should have been flattered for the attention because she's overweight, although she has a pretty face.  

Helps contribute to rape culture.  

That is saying people should be flattered by being assaulted, which is quite different. I don't think it follows- "she got assaulted because she is very attractive" "oh, so you're saying she enjoyed it?". There's no logical link.

It might have good or bad effects, but the most important thing is to speak the truth, right? We need to understand what's really going on in order to properly combat it, not just accept an oversimplification because it's inoffensive. 

Judges like this are the people we really need to go after, people in power who demonstrate they don't understand or care about the effects of assault. 

[Eggegg]

8 hours ago, Dr. Pepper said:

Here's a good example for why it's so dangerous to tie sexual harrassment and assault with sexual attraction.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/oct/27/canada-judge-says-sexual-assault-victim-may-have-been-flattered-by-the-incident

A judge in Quebec told a victim she should have been flattered for the attention because she's overweight, although she has a pretty face.  

Helps contribute to rape culture.  

Yeah I'm not sure that really validates your case, despite those being some pretty inappropriate words from the judge. Lets be clear, the victims appearance has no bearing on the defence. If I see a man who is carrying a load of gold that doesn't mean I can just run up and take it, most of us understand the rules.  Just because you see something you want, it doesn't mean you can have it. That doesn't mean that you don't want it however, or we should pretend that that desire doesn't exist in order to go along with a narrative that is more comfortable for us.

I find the idea that rape or sexual harassment is ONLY about power to be a much more destructive and dangerous idea, because it presupposes that all men are powerful and all women are weak. I can't think of a more sexist or un-empowering way of looking at the world. 

In Weinstein's case it was too much power that enabled him to commit the crimes that he committed. His power was unchecked and there were too many people looking the other in order to further their own careers and line their pockets. But his motivations were still at least partly sexual. 

[Yukle]

7 hours ago, drawkcabi said:

...

I hated it...

You poor darling. I'm so sorry for you, and hope you're as okay as is possible.

[drawkcabi]

10 minutes ago, Yukle said:

You poor darling. I'm so sorry for you, and hope you're as okay as is possible.

Thank you. I'm fine. I still think in comparison to others' horror stories what happened to me wasn't much. But no one should be made to feel even as uncomfortable as I was and definitely not feel that anxiety. 

Don't think any lasting damage was done, just a memory that won't go away. I always am extra sure to give people their space and don't touch anyone beyond a handshake unless I'm very close to them.

It's funny, I was at a vulnerable age, maybe if I was younger and he tried that i'd be like Stuart on Mad TV "Nooooooooo!" and push him away. I remember when my parents took me to Italy when I was 7 every time we went to visit some friend or family I'd never known afterwards I remember getting reprimanded and the "I'm disappointed in you" speech a lot because I wouldn't let these people I was unfamiliar with kiss me or hug me and being upset because I didn't understand exactly what I was doing wrong.

At 12 I was at an insecure stage, I was adult enough to feel embarrassed about being impolite, but not adult enough to assert myself.

[Dr. Pepper]

4 hours ago, mankytoes said:

That is saying people should be flattered by being assaulted, which is quite different. I don't think it follows- "she got assaulted because she is very attractive" "oh, so you're saying she enjoyed it?". There's no logical link.

It might have good or bad effects, but the most important thing is to speak the truth, right? We need to understand what's really going on in order to properly combat it, not just accept an oversimplification because it's inoffensive. 

Judges like this are the people we really need to go after, people in power who demonstrate they don't understand or care about the effects of assault. 

It's saying she should have been flattered that her perpetrator was sexually attracted to her, and that because he was sexually attracted to her he had to attack her body, which again, should be flattered about.  So now you have a judge who has told a victim she should be flattered what happened to her because she was overweight and also that the attacker couldn't really help it because her face was pretty.

And yes, if you read the article you'd see that it was about going after the judges and providing more training (there were multiple cases mentioned).

3 hours ago, Eggegg said:

 

I find the idea that rape or sexual harassment is ONLY about power to be a much more destructive and dangerous idea, because it presupposes that all men are powerful and all women are weak. I can't think of a more sexist or un-empowering way of looking at the world. 

 

That's only if you think that only men rape, harass and abuse and only women are victims.  But that's not true.  

Quote

In Weinstein's case it was too much power that enabled him to commit the crimes that he committed. His power was unchecked and there were too many people looking the other in order to further their own careers and line their pockets. But his motivations were still at least partly sexual. 

Yes, too much power, as we've been saying.  As for sexual?  Weinstein's statement reveals he was impotent, so.....

[Eggegg]

7 minutes ago, Dr. Pepper said:

It's saying she should have been flattered that her perpetrator was sexually attracted to her, and that because he was sexually attracted to her he had to attack her body, which again, should be flattered about.  So now you have a judge who has told a victim she should be flattered what happened to her because she was overweight and also that the attacker couldn't really help it because her face was pretty.

And yes, if you read the article you'd see that it was about going after the judges and providing more training (there were multiple cases mentioned).

I think he was trying to judge whether it was consensual or not, whether she was flattered by the advance and whether the attacker might have expected his advances were welcomed.. Her physical appearance is not a useful barometer of whether she would be flattered or not and doesn't really hold up. So he shouldn't be bringing it up. He doesn't however say that he had to attack her because he was attracted to her. 
 

12 minutes ago, Dr. Pepper said:

That's only if you think that only men rape, harass and abuse and only women are victims.  But that's not true.  

Luckily I don't think that. But that is often the perception put about when discussing these subjects.

 

12 minutes ago, Dr. Pepper said:

Yes, too much power, as we've been saying.  As for sexual?  Weinstein's statement reveals he was impotent, so.....

Being physically impotent does not always mean a lack of sexual desire

[mankytoes]

2 hours ago, drawkcabi said:

Thank you. I'm fine. I still think in comparison to others' horror stories what happened to me wasn't much. But no one should be made to feel even as uncomfortable as I was and definitely not feel that anxiety.

I think it's natural to always compare our problems with those of others, but it isn't usually helpful. There are degrees of harm, of course, but that should never be used to put down somebody else's experience.

With this story, we've all been asked to look at our lives, and I've realised I have been sexually assaulted (forced kissing) and harrassed (a woman at work came up behind me, ran her fingers through my hair and told me how nice it was). Obviously these are very minor instances, and I honestly don't think they really had an effect on me. But they could have, and it's still shitty behaviour.

3 hours ago, Eggegg said:

I find the idea that rape or sexual harassment is ONLY about power to be a much more destructive and dangerous idea, because it presupposes that all men are powerful and all women are weak. I can't think of a more sexist or un-empowering way of looking at the world.

I guess Weinstein's case is kind of stereotypical, big powerful rich fat old man picking on young and vulnerable women. I hope people don't get too caught up in these stereotypes, because sexual assault can happen by any type of person, to any type of person.

21 minutes ago, Dr. Pepper said:

It's saying she should have been flattered that her perpetrator was sexually attracted to her, and that because he was sexually attracted to her he had to attack her body, which again, should be flattered about.  So now you have a judge who has told a victim she should be flattered what happened to her because she was overweight and also that the attacker couldn't really help it because her face was pretty.

And yes, if you read the article you'd see that it was about going after the judges and providing more training (there were multiple cases mentioned).

Yes, too much power, as we've been saying.  As for sexual?  Weinstein's statement reveals he was impotent, so.....

I know, and that's total bullshit. Possibly one motivation of the attacker was sexual attraction, but the important point is that isn't a justification at all. It's like saying "you got mugged because you look so wealthy, you should take it as a compliment". The first part of that sentence may be true, the conclusion is obviously ridiculous.

That's great, I just mean the way you used the article, I don't really feel there's a relation here.

I don't know what your understanding of sexual impotence is, but it doesn't mean someone lacks sexual desire or attraction to others, which is what you seem to by implying. https://www.nhs.uk/livewell/goodsex/pages/malesexualdysfunction.aspx

If I had to make a guess, I'd guess he has problems because he's old and fat.

[Eggegg]

3 minutes ago, mankytoes said:

With this story, we've all been asked to look at our lives, and I've realised I have been sexually assaulted (forced kissing) and harrassed (a woman at work came up behind me, ran her fingers through my hair and told me how nice it was). Obviously these are very minor instances, and I honestly don't think they really had an effect on me. But they could have, and it's still shitty behaviour.

I guess Weinstein's case is kind of stereotypical, big powerful rich fat old man picking on young and vulnerable women. I hope people don't get too caught up in these stereotypes, because sexual assault can happen by any type of person, to any type of person.

I think most people have stories like this. I personally have had women force kiss me, grab my privates etc. Drunk women in bars have often come and grabbed me.  I don't know. I would say it hasn't really affected me at all. I think we have to be careful about how we categorise these events, because to me I see them more as clumsy, misjudged attempts to pick me up. Maybe the difference is that I know I can stop these things any time I want to and so I don't get very upset by them. But if I was a 12 year old kid things would be very different. 

 

[mankytoes]

2 hours ago, Eggegg said:

I think most people have stories like this. I personally have had women force kiss me, grab my privates etc. Drunk women in bars have often come and grabbed me.  I don't know. I would say it hasn't really affected me at all. I think we have to be careful about how we categorise these events, because to me I see them more as clumsy, misjudged attempts to pick me up. Maybe the difference is that I know I can stop these things any time I want to and so I don't get very upset by them. But if I was a 12 year old kid things would be very different. 

 

Yeah, I think it's important to recognise that the difference in physical strength is a factor. In most cases, a man could actually physically stop an assault if he was willing to. The reason I would count the event I alluded to as an assault is that this actually was a woman who was stronger than me, she was a rugby player, she put her arm around my head, I did resist, but wasn't able to get away from her. The only thing I feel bad about is I actually apologised to her after I broke away, like I felt bad for hurting her feelings. I actually had something similar happen with a guy, but I pushed him hard in the chest, something I wouldn't be willing to do to a woman, and nearly got in a fight over it.

[HexMachina]

Has anyone had the opportunity to watch “An Open Secret”? It’s a documentary released in 2015 detailing child abuse in Hollywood. The creators apparently made it available for free online in light of the Weinstein stuff.

https://www.theguardian.com/film/2017/nov/01/an-open-secret-hollywood-child-abuse-documentary?CMP=fb_gu

havent had a chance to watch it myself yet but I will be having a look

[Guy Kilmore]

Short comedy article and all, but I do think there is a grain of truth.

http://www.cracked.com/blog/the-reason-harvey-weinstein-just-beginning/

I mean, a serial abuser got elected to the highest office in the land, I know that I have stepped up being a better person and pushing against injustices that I might have let slide in the past.

[Eggegg]

57 minutes ago, Guy Kilmore said:

Short comedy article and all, but I do think there is a grain of truth.

http://www.cracked.com/blog/the-reason-harvey-weinstein-just-beginning/

I mean, a serial abuser got elected to the highest office in the land, I know that I have stepped up being a better person and pushing against injustices that I might have let slide in the past.

I think the reality is more that the press has focussed heavily on this issue since Trump got elected, and since the Weinstein thing came out almost all media outlets are on the hunt for more leads or stories they have filed away about sexual abuse. Certainly this is a deliberate push by the media to expose these stories, that wasn't there before.

[Guy Kilmore]

2 minutes ago, Eggegg said:

I think the reality is more that the press has focussed heavily on this issue since Trump got elected, and since the Weinstein thing came out almost all media outlets are on the hunt for more leads or stories they have filed away about sexual abuse. Certainly this is a deliberate push by the media to expose these stories, that wasn't there before.

I agree somewhat, but for a story to exist someone needs to come forward and say something and that takes a ton of courage and emotional calories from the victim.  It also takes emotional calories from their support network.  

I would say it is more in the public gestalt, but it is there, because so many people experience sexual harassment from people in power or know someone who has and now, something has to be done.  Someone just stepped over all of them and ascended into the highest office in the land.

[Eggegg]

10 minutes ago, Guy Kilmore said:

I agree somewhat, but for a story to exist someone needs to come forward and say something and that takes a ton of courage and emotional calories from the victim.  It also takes emotional calories from their support network.  

I would say it is more in the public gestalt, but it is there, because so many people experience sexual harassment from people in power or know someone who has and now, something has to be done.  Someone just stepped over all of them and ascended into the highest office in the land.

I would guess that people had been coming forward for quite some time in many of these cases. Knowing how the press works they often hold onto stories until they can find a good time or place for them, not saying that is quite what has happened here, but definitely they tend to jump on trends. Its strange how they managed to unearth so many cases in such a short amount of time. Why didn't they publish these stories before.