U.S. Politics 2017: You Flynn Some, You Lose Some

[DMC]

7 hours ago, Ormond said:

I really don't think you have to worry about that. Taxing you on past tuition waivers would be the same thing as an "ex post facto" law, wouldn't it? Such a change would only affect tuition waivers granted after the new law goes into effect.

Right, that's my understanding as well.  I was being tongue-in-cheek about my own situation - definitely not really worried anyone's gonna bother to look into my piddling grad school returns.

13 hours ago, Yukle said:

That's a possible thing you must do? Crazy! It's bad enough that tuition fees are among those funds that are not waived if you are declared bankrupt.

Well, I may be reading that email wrong, but from my understanding grad students are already being taxed from their tuition waivers - just at much lower levels that the House GOP bill would.  If that's the case, I have no idea how or where that is on my statements, and I certainly haven't been declaring it as income.

5 hours ago, Altherion said:

the entire concept was always a strange union of people who do really awesome things with ideologues who range from helpful to utterly vile and, for the moment at least, the latter have managed to dominate public perception.

You mean dominate Republican perception, right?  Cuz you just stated 72 percent of Dems view universities favorably.  Also, in that Pew link it should be noted around 90 percent of Republicans still view their own college experience positively.  So, an intuitive assumption is that this trend is generated by increasing resentment among uneducated Republicans.

2 hours ago, Altherion said:

In the past couple of years, they have been unwilling to maintain order and allowed various types of nonsense which outside groups and "conservative" media have exploited. I'm not sure that faculty could have stopped this even if all of them wanted to (and the latter is clearly not the case given that some of them were active participants in the chaos).

What specific nonsense are you referring to?

[LongRider]

10 minutes ago, dmc515 said:

So, an intuitive assumption is that this trend is generated by increasing resentment among uneducated Republicans.

Last time I heard a convo about college being so and/or too liberal was about '98-'99.  The two men conversing were two white working class men who had never stepped foot inside a college or university.  They sure thought they were experts tho on how liberal higher ed is.  Being as I had graduated from Uni in '97 I was scratching my head thinking 'what?  liberal? how?'  No answer from them, just the certainty (thanks to the local newspaper [Gannett] and Fox News) that things were going to hell in handbasket because of those liberals infecting classrooms and lecture halls.

[OldGimletEye]

23 hours ago, Altherion said:

That's one of the problems, yes. It's not the only one.

As far as I can tell, academia is far more liberal than conservative with a substantial number of people who don't identify as either. The academic department does make a difference, but in my experience (which was on the relatively neutral ground of Physics), there were very few conservatives. I was a postdoc up until near the end of the 2016 campaign and there wasn't a single professor I knew of who openly supported Trump (though granted, it's somewhat hard to tell since practically everyone refrained from political discussion during routine work).

And conservatives need to ask themselves a question here. Is academia liberal because of some kind irrational biases or because conservatism has become so bat shit crazy, no person who wants to be taken seriously would want to be associated with it?

23 hours ago, Altherion said:

.Regarding conservatives cleaning house: I'm not sure that they actually have a house to clean. That is, the US does not have coherent political ideologies in the same sense as, say, China. The conservatives have an assortment of traditions, unverifiable and/or overly generalized beliefs drawn from economic and political research and the output of the various paid interest groups. The liberals have a different assortment of beliefs and interest groups and they rely less on religion and tradition and more on the output of researchers, but they don't have an ideology either.

This is laughable. Pretty much conservatism, as it stands today, is a combination of:

1. White resentment 

2. Paranoid conspiracy peddling.

3. Idiotic supply side economics.

4. Chicken Hawkery

Of all the problems that face the world today, whether we are talking about climate change, race and gender issues, wealth inequality, financial regulation, healthcare, foreign policy, or whatever conservatism basically has no serious solutions to any of this stuff. About all they can to is stoke white resentment and just keep preachin' supply side nonsense. And the one thing they are supposed to be about, tax cuts, they can't even get that done.

The sooner people stop pretending that American Conservatism, as it stands today, isn't a joke, the better all of us will be. People who want to the "both sides" thing, like you are apparently doing here, aren't helping matters much.

And, you now, it's not like it's just me, a person who is left of center who is saying this. You have people like James Pethokoukis warning the Republican Party it's done gone insane. Others have tried to warn it as well.

[Altherion]

26 minutes ago, dmc515 said:

You mean dominate Republican perception, right?  Cuz you just stated 72 percent of Dems view universities favorably.  Also, in that Pew link it should be noted around 90 percent of Republicans still view their own college experience positively.  So, an intuitive assumption is that this trend is generated by increasing resentment among uneducated Republicans.

Not necessarily. It is more likely that Democrats are also influenced by the perception, but, unlike Republicans, they approve of it because it benefits them.

28 minutes ago, dmc515 said:

What specific nonsense are you referring to?

This sort of thing.

8 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

And conservatives need to ask themselves a question here. Is academia liberal because of some kind irrational biases or because conservatism has become so bat shit crazy, no person who wanted to be taken seriously would want to be associated with it?

Or it could just be that people quite rationally like to hire those like themselves and one side or the other was bound to dominate in the long term.

10 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

Of all the problems that face the world today, whether we are talking about climate change, race and gender issues, wealth inequality, financial regulation, healthcare, foreign policy, or whatever conservatism basically has no serious solutions to any of this stuff. About all they can to is stoke white resentment and just keep preachin' supply side nonsense. And the one thing they are supposed to be about, tax cuts, they can't even get that done.

Climate change is irrelevant to most people, conservatism's approach to race and gender has become nearly the same as that of liberals with the sole difference being the identity of the victims, everybody talks about wealth inequality, but neither side is doing anything about it and the others are conflicts between massive economic powers which have lined up on the two difference sides.

I completely agree with you that "American Conservatism" is a joke and in fact the fact that they're having a hard time keeping populists out of office shows that even their base is not far from that position. Where we disagree is in the existence of a viable alternative. Bluntly, "American Liberalism" is also a joke.

[OldGimletEye]

23 hours ago, Altherion said:

Climate change is irrelevant to most people

It is? I don't think it is. Only to conservatives is it irrelevant.

23 hours ago, Altherion said:

Climate change is irrelevant to most people, conservatism's approach to race and gender has become nearly the same as that of liberals with the sole difference being the identity of the victims,

One: Conservatives accuse liberals of doing "identity politics" when in fact they are the masters at it. It kind of like them accusing people of "class warfare" when in fact they excel at it.

But, anyway, like seriously, there is a large set of data and statistics concerning everything from gaps in pay to discrepancies in criminal sentencing that should concern fair minded people. Conservatives simply don't pay attention to this stuff, nor to they seemingly care. And then you have all this sexual harassment stuff coming out. Will conservatives see it as problem we should try to get a handle on? Nope. Its all about tax cuts for them and then telling their base that is okay to believe in lost cause theories.

23 hours ago, Altherion said:

everybody talks about wealth inequality, but neither side is doing anything about it and the others are conflicts between massive economic powers which have lined up on the two difference sides.

Maybe you are trying to justify your support for Trump here, but I'm calling bullshit on this. While one might argue that the Democratic establishment could do more, fact is there is a clear difference.

When Donald Trump got those two goddamned clowns, Larry Kudlow and Stephen Moore as advisors, the hand writing on the wall should have been clear to any reasonable person.

For all it's faults, the Democratic Party did get the ACA passed which a lot of people needed. They also got Dodd-Frank done, which was needed. Now you may not recall this, but in case you forgot, a lot of people got seriously hurt during the last financial crises. So, it's vital to make sure the financial system doesn't implode again. And the Republican Party has been fighting the reality based community on this stuff since day one.

And case you forgot, the Republican Party's spewed out effing nonsense for 10 fuckin' years, with it's goddamned gold buggism and it's confidence fairy crap. 

And who is in favor of higher minimum wage laws? It ain't the Republican Party.

And now we have the Republican Party trying to pass this sorry ass corporate tax bill, that's just pure nonsense and is nothing but a cash handout to the wealthy.

So, please lets not do the "both sides" thing here. Cause your killin' me with this stuff.

23 hours ago, Altherion said:

I completely agree with you that "American Conservatism" is a joke and in fact the fact that they're having a hard time keeping populists out of office shows that even their base is not far from that position. Where we disagree is in the existence of a viable alternative. Bluntly, "American Liberalism" is also a joke.

And here we go again with this "both sides" nonsense. While liberalism may have some issues, it is no where near as sorry shape as conservatism. It's not even close.

[DMC]

26 minutes ago, Altherion said:

It is more likely that Democrats are also influenced by the perception, but, unlike Republicans, they approve of it because it benefits them.

How would that possibly explain the amount of Republicans that say universities have a positive effect on the country dropping from 58 to 36 percent since 2010 (and the negative correspondingly going from 32 to 58)?  In comparison, the movement for Dems is 65 to 72, a third of the GOP's change.

26 minutes ago, Altherion said:

This sort of thing.

That's an interesting offering for liberal academia run amok, considering this quote from the article:

Quote

That video went viral, and more than 100 Missouri lawmakers, mostly Republican, called for her ouster. Click later said she regretted her actions but insisted her firing was unfair.

Edit:  Sorry, I think I understand your point on the professor now - you objected to her actions, not her firing, right?  Fair enough.

[Dr. Pepper]

15 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

It is? I don't think it is. Only to conservatives is it irrelevant.

 

I think more specifically climate change is irrelevant for those who give no shits about their children or grandchildren or other people's children or grandchildren. 

[Kalbear]

3 minutes ago, Dr. Pepper said:

I think more specifically climate change is irrelevant for those who give no shits about their children or grandchildren or other people's children or grandchildren. 

Eh. I think it's relevant but not particularly important to most people. It is certainly not the #1 concern of almost anyone, and based on people's choices for day-to-day activities it's not clear that they care that much to change. 

[OldGimletEye]

23 hours ago, Dr. Pepper said:

I think more specifically climate change is irrelevant for those who give no shits about their children or grandchildren or other people's children or grandchildren. 

 

23 hours ago, Kalbear said:

Eh. I think it's relevant but not particularly important to most people. It is certainly not the #1 concern of almost anyone, and based on people's choices for day-to-day activities it's not clear that they care that much to change. 

Perhaps it would have been more accurate for me to say something like:For most people it’s kind of off their radar screen. But, it’s mostly or only conservatives that lose their minds if anyone tries to do something about it. And it has been conservatives that have been in the business of climate change denial for years.

[Zorral]

52 minutes ago, Altherion said:

 

Climate change is irrelevant to most people . . . 

Tell that to all the people who suffered throughout the Caribbean and Atlantic coast and Gulf coasts from hurricanes in the last few months.  Tell it to all the people in Europe and the US who suffered from wildfires this year alone.  Tell it to the tax payers who have to bail out at ever increasing billions the port of Houston alone -- o shyte, you don't see anything unless it's right in your own nostrils.  How old are you?  Like 18?

[Dr. Pepper]

12 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Eh. I think it's relevant but not particularly important to most people. It is certainly not the #1 concern of almost anyone, and based on people's choices for day-to-day activities it's not clear that they care that much to change. 

That's fair.  I find it incredibly difficult to make the bigger lifestyle changes needed to control, say, my plastic consumption.  

3 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

 

Perhaps it would have been more accurate for me to say something like:For most people it’s kind of off their radar screen. But, it’s mostly or only conservatives that lose their minds if anyone tries to do something about it. And it has been conservatives that have been in the business of climate change denial for years.

I guess I was thinking more of typically conservative organizations, like the military which identified climate change the greatest impending threat to national security or something of that nature.  

[Dr. Pepper]

1 minute ago, Zorral said:

Tell that to all the people who suffered throughout the Caribbean and Atlantic coast and Gulf coasts from hurricanes in the last few months.  Tell it to all the people in Europe and the US who suffered from wildfires this year alone.  Tell it to the tax payers who have to bail out at ever increasing billions the port of Houston alone -- o shyte, you don't see anything unless it's right in your own nostrils.  How old are you?  Like 18?

Don't forget elsewhere in the world.  The massive flooding in South Asia, for example.  

[Kalbear]

1 minute ago, Dr. Pepper said:

Don't forget elsewhere in the world.  The massive flooding in South Asia, for example.  

China cares about this a lot as well, for obvious reasons - pollution in their country is insanely bad, or had been, and they knew they had to fix it. There are a lot of places where climate change is a massive concern. Iceland is really good at having virtually any public policy need environmental checks, because they've already gone through an environmental disaster. 

But the US? Nah. Liberals say they care, but they care significantly more about other issues. And conservatives mostly care about apparently saying that they don't care. Amusingly oil companies treat it as fact and plan around it, of course.

[Dr. Pepper]

5 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

China cares about this a lot as well, for obvious reasons - pollution in their country is insanely bad, or had been, and they knew they had to fix it. There are a lot of places where climate change is a massive concern. Iceland is really good at having virtually any public policy need environmental checks, because they've already gone through an environmental disaster. 

But the US? Nah. Liberals say they care, but they care significantly more about other issues. And conservatives mostly care about apparently saying that they don't care. Amusingly oil companies treat it as fact and plan around it, of course.

In what ways?

[OldGimletEye]

23 hours ago, Dr. Pepper said:

I guess I was thinking more of typically conservative organizations, like the military which identified climate change the greatest impending threat to national security or something of that nature.  

Ah, I see your point. I do agree that the military tends on the conservative side (but frankly, in my experience a lot of that has to do with where the soldiers come from. They guys you have in your platoon from East LA aren't going to see eye to eye on politics with the guys from Missouri.), particularly the officer corps. But, it would seem they do tend to push back on conservatives once awhile, though largely being conservative in orientation.. At least some do. I know a lot of the top brass threw a fit over Dubya's piss poor war planning, some even feeling the need to write books about it.

[Kalbear]

1 minute ago, Dr. Pepper said:

In what ways?

I thought I had read an article on this - can't find it right now - but the jist was that they were planning on being able to go to more places in the arctic due to opening ice areas, planning on making rigs far more resistant to storm damage, not going after certain sites because they wouldn't be viable in 20 years due to rising water levels, etc.

[The Anti-Targ]

14 minutes ago, Dr. Pepper said:

In what ways?

In moving their infrastructure away from the coast and / or to higher ground.

[Martell Spy]

What’s Next for the Republican Tax Bill
The Senate faces a tight timeline for a massive tax overhaul.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2017/11/what_s_next_for_the_republican_tax_bill.html

[Zorral]

50 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

I thought I had read an article on this - can't find it right now - but the jist was that they were planning on being able to go to more places in the arctic due to opening ice areas, planning on making rigs far more resistant to storm damage, not going after certain sites because they wouldn't be viable in 20 years due to rising water levels, etc.

But they don't do a damn thing about building their toxic refineries etc. on flood plains like Houston while happily knowing the public's money will bail them out to rebuild in exactly the same damned places.

The industry who most fervently believes in climate change and is doing something about it is the insurance industry, which means not paying for what happens to you after taking you money.

Another group that believes so much in man made climate change are oceanographers, who are so depressed by what they have been seeing for decades and that governments like the US won't do anything to change anything that they say now that it is all over.  Climate change and the end of everything, particularly the oceans, is HERE and nothing can reverse it now.

 

[Zorral]

55 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

Ah, I see your point. I do agree that the military tends on the conservative side (but frankly, in my experience a lot of that has to do with where the soldiers come from. They guys you have in your platoon from East LA aren't going to see eye to eye on politics with the guys from Missouri.), particularly the officer corps. But, it would seem they do tend to push back on conservatives once awhile, though largely being conservative in orientation.. At least some do. I know a lot of the top brass threw a fit over Dubya's piss poor war planning, some even feeling the need to write books about it.

It has far more to do with Fox News being fed to them 24/7 wherever they are -- air transport, barracks, mess hall, you name it, it got Fox News 24/7.  Also evangelical prayer warrior pastors everywhere.