Worst theory you've ever heard

[the trees have eyes]

ETA: Oh and I don't think the pursuit is from Roose.  Roose was leaving the next day IIRC and leaving Harrenhall to the Mummers.  If he was after them he would have sent Northmen not Mummers.  The Mummers on the other hand are likely after Gendry as they now posess the castle and a skilled smith is a valuable asset.  I doubt they care about Arya or Hot Pie, two otherwise unremarkable servants.

Fail edit

[Lost Melnibonean]

18 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

There are two phases to her Harrenhall experience.

The first under the Mountain and Lorch is abominable and she survives Weese's tyrannical brutality by keeping her head down, oh and using her Jaqen joker to off all of Chiswyck, Weese and whoever were guarding Glover and the other Northmen in the cells.

The second under Roose is completely different and she acts as his servant, almost a page and is never mistreated or under threat of any particular kind.

I don't see why people reference the first phase under the Mountain's Men to justify her killing a Northern soldier to escape.  I understand not wanting to be left at Harrenhall under Hoat's authority (who wouldn't) but the simple solution is to say to Roose who she is.

It's easy to use hindsight to say she was right to mistrust Roose given the Red Wedding but that's a long way off in the story.   Deciding to kill one of Robb's men to escape rather than secure better treatment from one of his principal bannermen is a shocking choice to me.

I don't know... This is a fiction, and the storyteller has been giving us the ol' heebeegeebees about Roose since Game. So I was glad she didna reveal herself. And keep in mind she didna whack the sentry until after Roose said he was going to leave her for the Footmen. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

2 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

ETA: Oh and I don't think the pursuit is from Roose.  Roose was leaving the next day IIRC and leaving Harrenhall to the Mummers.  If he was after them he would have sent Northmen not Mummers.  The Mummers on the other hand are likely after Gendry as they now posess the castle and a skilled smith is a valuable asset.  I doubt they care about Arya or Hot Pie, two otherwise unremarkable servants.

Fail edit

Roose was till there when Jaime arrived, which was later. 

[Philokles]

1 hour ago, the trees have eyes said:

Her instincts aren't really what are at play here.  Pre-battle of the Blackwater, pre-capture of Winterfell and pre-Robb not keeping it in his pants and throwing away the Frey alliance Roose is not the dagger at Robb's throat he becomes.  Roose may be a fair weather bannerman and looking not just to come out of things a disaster well but to secure a promotion too but there is no reason for Arya to suspect disloyalty, he's just a weird dude and she's a traumatised child.

Have a look at a timeline. In this very chapter Arya learns Winterfell has fallen, Elmar tells her about how he won't be getting his princess anymore and Roose casually mentions that he has intricate knowledge of Tywin's plans. In hindsight it is very clear that the Red Wedding prep is well underway and Arya is correct to instinctually not trust Roose a jot.

 

1 hour ago, the trees have eyes said:

The second under Roose is completely different and she acts as his servant, almost a page and is never mistreated or under threat of any particular kind.

Except earlier in the chapter when he threatens to cut her tongue out for daring to suggest that she would like to leave Harrenhal one day. And the looming threat of Vargo, who is not even a stable psychopath like Roose, taking over. And the Lannisters capturing the castle and her ending up like Pia for collaborating with the Northmen.

[Ser Leftwich]

The worst is: Y (or Z or A or B or C) must be the answer because X is too obvious. It is lazy. Being contrarian not with a well-crafted argument, but just for the sake of being (usually unwavering and adamantly) contrarian.

[Blackwater Revenant]

4 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

I'm sorry but what part of The Starks and Lannisters not being at war did you read about? 

I'm sorry, I don't understand what your asking here. Could you please clarify.

Quote

I think your comparison is somewhat misplaced. 

How so? You implied that Arya made a mistake in not revealing herself to the Northerners because she is not at war with them, and they follow her brother. Well, she was not at war with the Lannisters, and her family was aligned with them. Yet the Lannisters betrayed her family and murdered everyone she knew in King's Landing. After experiencing such betrayal by those she should have been able to trust, it's quite understandable that she was afraid to reveal herself to the Northerners, even though they weren't at war with her, and they followed her brother.

Quote

Her instincts aren't really what are at play here.  Pre-battle of the Blackwater, pre-capture of Winterfell and pre-Robb not keeping it in his pants and throwing away the Frey alliance Roose is not the dagger at Robb's throat he becomes.  Roose may be a fair weather bannerman and looking not just to come out of things a disaster well but to secure a promotion too but there is no reason for Arya to suspect disloyalty, he's just a weird dude and she's a traumatised child.

Whether she had a reason or not to suspect disloyalty from Roose is besides the point. Her instincts, influenced by her experiences in King's Landing, told her not to trust anyone, be it friends (Roose and the Northerners holding Harenhall) as the Lannisters were supposed to be, or foes. 

And that's kind of the whole thing with instincts, there doesn't have to be a logical reason to believe something, it's just a gut feeling telling you so, despite things on the surface seeming contrary to what they are telling you.

[Daemon the Leaner]

1 hour ago, Ser Leftwich said:

The worst is: Y (or Z or A or B or C) must be the answer because X is too obvious. It is lazy. Being contrarian not with a well-crafted argument, but just for the sake of being (usually unwavering and adamantly) contrarian.

Thus I can reasonably guess you think that Hizdahr is the Harpy ? Or that Jon and Dany will end up together ? Or that Reznak is Dany's perfumed seneschal ?

I'd rather say that while some theories are truly making problems where there are not, other theories give an alternative funny lecture where the basic story is just so obvious.

[wolfmaid7]

On 12/17/2017 at 5:28 PM, ravenous reader said:

Worst theory ever --

Bran Stark is the Night's King.

I second this not as worse but a unique perspective. I don't there are bad theories just unique perspective that seem out there. There are some theories i don't buy as being probable but to say they are the worse...Meh.

Except in terms of being far out there. Heretics might remember this doozy by "The Real Jon Snow"

Where Jon was the one who shot Ygrain and she was preggers with his baby? Anyone remember that one?

On 12/17/2017 at 6:53 PM, Nevets said:

 

Not sure what all this is doing in a thread about "Worst Theories' ; not to mention it seems to have gotten a bit over-wrought on both sides.  If you mean that "Arya Stark is so badly damaged that she cannot lead a normal life" is among the worst theories, I'm with you. 

I don't think its that bad conceptually.I think of Arya alive and post war.I am doubtful she will have what we may consider "a normal life." Think of everything she's seen and done ,how does she settle down after that? If she is alive when this is all said an done and this is just an opnion settling down and having an atypical normal life might not be for her.

On 12/18/2017 at 10:56 AM, Lost Melnibonean said:

The idea is that Jon is the dragon waking from stone. 

" Finally he looked north. He saw the Wall shining like blue crystal, and his bastard brother Jon sleeping alone in a cold bed, his skin growing pale and hard as the memory of all warmth fled from him."(Bran,AGOT).

12 hours ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

It reminds me of poor Puddles, mercilessly slayed by Sam (the Slayer).

I will preface this by saying i believe the WWs are pretty much "boogey men" they are pretty much cover for a greenseer.But when it comes to a general view of WWs they do get a bad wrap.I will switch to make my point.

Craster takes his boys and exposes them as a sacrifice in a forest where supposedly the WWs take them and turn them into WWS( I don't believe that either). Who is the bad guy there? The parent who exposed the child to die,or the one who picked it up and it supposedly lived?

I'm going to go all Yoda and Obi Wan Kenobi here,but starting with Waymar Royce,Small Paul and ending with Sam the Slayer...They all sparked their Lightsabers first man.It didn't go well for Royce and paul but Sam stabbed a dude in the back when he wasn't looking.

[the trees have eyes]

7 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

I don't know... This is a fiction, and the storyteller has been giving us the ol' heebeegeebees about Roose since Game. So I was glad she didna reveal herself. And keep in mind she didna whack the sentry until after Roose said he was going to leave her for the Footmen. 

If Roose was gonna leave her for the Goat but

7 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Roose was till there when Jaime arrived, which was later. 

then there wasn't much of an impending disaster she had to escape from.

6 hours ago, Horse of Kent said:

Have a look at a timeline. In this very chapter Arya learns Winterfell has fallen, Elmar tells her about how he won't be getting his princess anymore and Roose casually mentions that he has intricate knowledge of Tywin's plans. In hindsight it is very clear that the Red Wedding prep is well underway and Arya is correct to instinctually not trust Roose a jot.

 

Except earlier in the chapter when he threatens to cut her tongue out for daring to suggest that she would like to leave Harrenhal one day. And the looming threat of Vargo, who is not even a stable psychopath like Roose, taking over. And the Lannisters capturing the castle and her ending up like Pia for collaborating with the Northmen.

Ok, timeline is more advanced and Roose is reacting to it.  GRRM is dropping clever hints for the reader but not really for Arya to pick up on.  Roose meets up with Robb later on, would it have been so unreasonable to expect that he would have handed her over to Catelyn & Robb at that point?  She wouldn't have spent all that time tied up in Sandor's saddlecloth either.

Re the second part: the point is that she has an escape route from such a scenario - revealing who she is.

[Lost Melnibonean]

27 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

If Roose was gonna leave her for the Goat but

then there wasn't much of an impending disaster she had to escape from.

Ok, timeline is more advanced and Roose is reacting to it.  GRRM is dropping clever hints for the reader but not really for Arya to pick up on.  Roose meets up with Robb later on, would it have been so unreasonable to expect that he would have handed her over to Catelyn & Robb at that point?  She wouldn't have spent all that time tied up in Sandor's saddlecloth either.

Re the second part: the point is that she has an escape route from such a scenario - revealing who she is.

Sorry, but I just don't see that what she did was wrong. I cheered it the first time, and ever since. 

[the trees have eyes]

8 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Sorry, but I just don't see that what she did was wrong. I cheered it the first time, and ever since. 

That's your prerogative of course.  I like Arya but I don't see that she has carte blanche to kill anyone she decides to out of convenience or expedience.  I feel uncomfortable about all of Door Guard #1, Darreon and the insurance broker in Braavos as they seem unnecessary killings that are planned rather than in the heat of the moment or in self-defence (as opposed to, e.g, the stableboy in KL, The Tickler and the poor muttonheaded squire who was just looking to lose his cherry).

[Philokles]

10 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

Ok, timeline is more advanced and Roose is reacting to it.  GRRM is dropping clever hints for the reader but not really for Arya to pick up on.  Roose meets up with Robb later on, would it have been so unreasonable to expect that he would have handed her over to Catelyn & Robb at that point?  She wouldn't have spent all that time tied up in Sandor's saddlecloth either.

Re the second part: the point is that she has an escape route from such a scenario - revealing who she is.

There are enough signs for someone as astute as Arya to realise that Roose cannot be trusted but Robett Glover can be.

Having correctly ascertained that, Arya should just let herself be abused?

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

1 hour ago, the trees have eyes said:

I feel uncomfortable about all of Door Guard #1

Loving that that's caught on. 

1 hour ago, the trees have eyes said:

I feel uncomfortable about all of Door Guard #1, Darreon and the insurance broker in Braavos as they seem unnecessary killings that are planned rather than in the heat of the moment or in self-defence

In all seriousness, what we are seeing with Arya is a young girl responding to experiencing violence at a young age, and using it as a survival tool.

Arya had been caught up in a current of absolutely terrible events, first having her father killed and being cast into the streets, then caught up in the war and getting captured and sent to Riverrun. What we saw with her three kills was her using violence as a way of gaining back some control over her environment (hence, her becoming the Ghost instead of a mouse or a weasel). She then decided that she wanted to leave Harrenhal and return to her family. She used violence against Door Guard #1 (who was just one day from retirement, probably) in order to make her escape.

We know Arya felt bad about it afterwards, but actually when reading it I never once judged her, so much as worried about the effect it would have on her. She was a child caught up in a maelstrom of violence, where she was at constant risk of rape/murder/kidnap. In such a situation, where she's essentially imprisoned by either uncaring or malevolent men, killing one of them and running away seems perfectly reasonable to me. 

If I was passing through a war, got captured and put to work simply for being there, and once I had worked my way to some degree of comfort, was told that me and my friends were being put into the care of a well-known violent psychopath who chops off people's feet for amuthment, I wouldn't hesitate in killing a guard to escape, and I'm a grown man. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

1 hour ago, the trees have eyes said:

That's your prerogative of course.  I like Arya but I don't see that she has carte blanche to kill anyone she decides to out of convenience or expedience.  I feel uncomfortable about all of Door Guard #1, Darreon and the insurance broker in Braavos as they seem unnecessary killings that are planned rather than in the heat of the moment or in self-defence (as opposed to, e.g, the stableboy in KL, The Tickler and the poor muttonheaded squire who was just looking to lose his cherry).

The way I see it, Door Guard No. 1 stood between her and freedom. While that man did not pose an immediate threat to her person, she sensed that she was in imminent danger, and he was guarding the door she needed to exit. She sensed (correctly) that turning to Roose was not an option. And don't forget that she aided her friends in doing the deed. 

Daeron confessed to deserting the Night’s Watch (and she saw that he abandoned his friends in a desperate hour). She was perfectly aware that the duty of any lord of the Seven Kingdoms would be to execute the man. She carried out her late father's duty. 

The insurer is the most interesting case. She is told by her new pack that she must kill him to remain with the pack. She is told that the murder is a sacred act, since Him of Many Faces has chosen him for the gift. Yet still she seeks to justify the murder in her own mind. 

These cases demonstrate that she's desperate, vengeful, and willing to kill, but I think she does have a conscience. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

19 minutes ago, Horse of Kent said:

There are enough signs for someone as astute as Arya to realise that Roose cannot be trusted but Robett Glover can be.

I am thinking that Arya was better at playing come into my castle than Sansa

Quote

Come-into-my-castle was a game for highborn children, one meant to teach them courtesy, heraldry, and a thing or two about their lord father's friends and foes.

Tyrion IX, Dance 40

[the trees have eyes]

55 minutes ago, Horse of Kent said:

There are enough signs for someone as astute as Arya to realise that Roose cannot be trusted but Robett Glover can be.

Having correctly ascertained that, Arya should just let herself be abused?

Yet she doesn't reveal herself to Glover either.  Why do you think Roose would abuse her?  He can't mistreat her in front of other Northmen and he has no reason to do so either.  Genuinely puzzled as to why you think she is in danger from hom once her identity is revealed.

47 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

Loving that that's caught on. 

In all seriousness, what we are seeing with Arya is a young girl responding to experiencing violence at a young age, and using it as a survival tool.

Arya had been caught up in a current of absolutely terrible events, first having her father killed and being cast into the streets, then caught up in the war and getting captured and sent to Riverrun. What we saw with her three kills was her using violence as a way of gaining back some control over her environment (hence, her becoming the Ghost instead of a mouse or a weasel). She then decided that she wanted to leave Harrenhal and return to her family. She used violence against Door Guard #1 (who was just one day from retirement, probably) in order to make her escape.

We know Arya felt bad about it afterwards, but actually when reading it I never once judged her, so much as worried about the effect it would have on her. She was a child caught up in a maelstrom of violence, where she was at constant risk of rape/murder/kidnap. In such a situation, where she's essentially imprisoned by either uncaring or malevolent men, killing one of them and running away seems perfectly reasonable to me. 

If I was passing through a war, got captured and put to work simply for being there, and once I had worked my way to some degree of comfort, was told that me and my friends were being put into the care of a well-known violent psychopath who chops off people's feet for amuthment, I wouldn't hesitate in killing a guard to escape, and I'm a grown man. 

That's fair enough and largely how I see it.  What I find less palatable is the extent to which poor Door Gaurd #1 is simply shrugged off as wrong guy in the wrong place at the wrong time which comes dangeroulsy close to my mind to saying Arya gets a pass to kill anyone should she decide to.  Should we adopt her mindset or challenge it?  That's not to say I don't understand it, just that I don't accept it as readily as some.  As to the bolded: well, you don't have a get out of jail free card that consists of you revealing you are a princess and calling on all of these people around you for protection.

36 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

The way I see it, Door Guard No. 1 stood between her and freedom. While that man did not pose an immediate threat to her person, she sensed that she was in imminent danger, and he was guarding the door she needed to exit. She sensed (correctly) that turning to Roose was not an option. And don't forget that she aided her friends in doing the deed. 

Daeron confessed to deserting the Night’s Watch (and she saw that he abandoned his friends in a desperate hour). She was perfectly aware that the duty of any lord of the Seven Kingdoms would be to execute the man. She carried out her late father's duty. 

The insurer is the most interesting case. She is told by her new pack that she must kill him to remain with the pack. She is told that the murder is a sacred act, since Him of Many Faces has chosen him for the gift. Yet still she seeks to justify the murder in her own mind. 

These cases demonstrate that she's desperate, vengeful, and willing to kill, but I think she does have a conscience. 

Door Guard #1 stood between her and a different kind of danger but yes he was in the way of the course of action she decided on.  Do you think Roose would have shipped her off to KL rather than handing her over to her family (presumably to allow her to mary Elmar or kidnap her at the RW)?

She's a trumatised child who has seen too much violence and become habituated to death.  Life is cheap to her and she is too quick to take it.  Why kill Darreon?  It's no business of hers.  She is angry that he is a deserter who is abandoning his pack (abandoning Jon who she cares about) and so she murders him and rationalises it as justice.  If Jon had not joined the NW would she give a damn about this total stranger?

Understand that I root for her in general but that the path she is treading is a dark one and I want her to row back and take a different turn.

[Lost Melnibonean]

29 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

Yet she doesn't reveal herself to Glover either.  Why do you think Roose would abuse her?  He can't mistreat her in front of other Northmen and he has no reason to do so either.  Genuinely puzzled as to why you think she is in danger from hom once her identity is revealed.

That's fair enough and largely how I see it.  What I find less palatable is the extent to which poor Door Gaurd #1 is simply shrugged off as wrong guy in the wrong place at the wrong time which comes dangeroulsy close to my mind to saying Arya gets a pass to kill anyone should she decide to.  Should we adopt her mindset or challenge it?  That's not to say I don't understand it, just that I don't accept it as readily as some.  As to the bolded: well, you don't have a get out of jail free card that consists of you revealing you are a princess and calling on all of these people around you for protection.

Door Guard #1 stood between her and a different kind of danger but yes he was in the way of the course of action she decided on.  Do you think Roose would have shipped her off to KL rather than handing her over to her family (presumably to allow her to mary Elmar or kidnap her at the RW)?

She's a trumatised child who has seen too much violence and become habituated to death.  Life is cheap to her and she is too quick to take it.  Why kill Darreon?  It's no business of hers.  She is angry that he is a deserter who is abandoning his pack (abandoning Jon who she cares about) and so she murders him and rationalises it as justice.  If Jon had not joined the NW would she give a damn about this total stranger?

Understand that I root for her in general but that the path she is treading is a dark one and I want her to row back and take a different turn.

I admire your compassion. 

[LiveFirstDieLater]

34 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

That's fair enough and largely how I see it.  What I find less palatable is the extent to which poor Door Gaurd #1 is simply shrugged off as wrong guy in the wrong place at the wrong time which comes dangeroulsy close to my mind to saying Arya gets a pass to kill anyone should she decide to.  Should we adopt her mindset or challenge it?  That's not to say I don't understand it, just that I don't accept it as readily as some.  As to the bolded: well, you don't have a get out of jail free card that consists of you revealing you are a princess and calling on all of these people around you for protection.

So a few things...

This is a warzone... so let’s not pretend she’s murdering poor door guard #1 on some whim in some safe and civilized place. If you want to debate the morals of killing the insurance broker, that’s one thing. 

But Door Guard #1, poor as his demise was, was a soldier in a war zone and on duty serving to keep people prisoner against their will. Frankly, he should have been a better guard, this wasn’t weasel’s first betrayal.

He was a casualty, sad maybe but hardly an atrocity.

She was right not to tell Bolton who she is. He was already plotting with Tywin, wether Arya “knew” or “suspected” this was the case, serving as his personal page, could be debated, but either way she surely made the right choice.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

 

52 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

Why kill Darreon?  It's no business of hers.  She is angry that he is a deserter who is abandoning his pack (abandoning Jon who she cares about) and so she murders him and rationalises it as justice.  If Jon had not joined the NW would she give a damn about this total stranger?

He broke his vows and abandoned his duty and sworn brothers.

Not just Jon, but her uncle Benjen, and ancestors for thousands of years... there is every reason to believe she would respect the ancient orders and the laws of her home. We could debate the morals of those laws, but if the standard you expect characters to meet is that of a fare free open trial, you will be disappointed.

The man who casts the sentence should swing the sword. That’s her father’s ethos, you might not agree with it, but it is what it is.

Daeron knew his life was forfeit.

As for it not being her business, she saw a wrong and carried out what she’s been taught is justice.

The idea that one shouldn’t act unless it’s “your business” is scary, that’s how you get Nazis... of course vigilante justice is scary in its own right as well, but she’s doesn’t have much reason to expect justice being delivered any other way.

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

27 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

But Door Guard #1, poor as his demise was, was a soldier in a war zone and on duty serving to keep people prisoner against their will. Frankly, he should have been a better guard, this wasn’t weasel’s first betrayal.

Talk about adding insult to injury. First he gets his throat cut, then he has his professionalism questioned.