Who Really Came 1st?

[Free Northman Reborn]

It would seem that the Children are one of the Elder, non-human races of the Ice and fire world. They were likely the original inhabitants of Westeros, at the time when the Deep Ones ruled the oceans, and some ancient non-human civilizations ruled the Far East.

The giants appear to be a species distantly related to humans, given that they are able to interbreed successfully with humans and produce living offspring that can procreate in turn. There is no evidence that this is possible between humans and the Children. In fact, considering the fundamental differences such as them having only three fingers for example, it seems almost certain that they are from an entirely different species to humans, and therefore incapable of interbreeding with people.

We have hints that the Children have lived in Westeros for a million years, whereas giants most likely arrived there sometime later, as part of the various proto-human migrations from wherever the ape-human family originated in the Ice and Fire World - probably from Sothoryos or Essos.

 

[AlaskanSandman]

4 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

. There is no evidence that this is possible between humans and the Children.

Jenny of Old Stones and the Ghost of High Heart? The Ghost of High Heart even theorized as the child of Leaf?

[kissdbyfire]

6 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Our friend @kissdbyfirestarted things off in the bold stance that humans were mere non-magical mortals until they earned the what? respect? of the COTF.   Not that you asked, but you're just back from the pub so perhaps you will be sympathetic to my suspicion to the contrary.   Along the lines of @hiemal,  it's possible the 1st Men were magical before they got to Westeros.  It's possible whatever magic resides in Westeros activated the magical traits if they weren't previously obvious

Perhaps I could have elaborated a bit on why I think the FM were mere non-magical humans...

We don't really have anything pointing towards them being anything other than "normal", non-magical humans. We know they were afraid of the weirwoods, and used to think the carved faces were spying on them - which they were, obviously! And we never hear of anything magical in relation to the first FM. I don't know, but if they had any kind of magical powers, latent or not, shouldn't we have read something about it by now? What would be the point of revealing in book 6 or 7 that the FM had their own magics when they first arrived in Westeros? What imapact could this reveal have on the story? Maybe something along the lines of their own natural supernatural powers making them a perfect/good fit to join in, as it were, with the CotF? Still, I don't think it would fundamentally change anything; the story would still be exactly where it is now. That, added to not having heard anything about inherent pre-Westeros FM having any sort of magical power leads me to think they didn't have any. All pure speculation, of course, and fully acknowledging I could be totally wrong!

 

[Free Northman Reborn]

24 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Jenny of Old Stones and the Ghost of High Heart? The Ghost of High Heart even theorized as the child of Leaf?

Mere speculation. How would that be possible? I come back to the five vs four fingers issue. How far do you have to go from the human family tree to get to a different number of digits?  I don't see natural interbreeding being possible between such divergent species. They are an alien species, compared to us.

Giants on the other hand are clearly much more closely related to humans. And are confirmed to successfully interbreed with humans, producing viable offspring.

[AlaskanSandman]

3 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Mere speculation. How would that be possible? I come back to the five vs three fingers issue. How far do you have to go from the human family tree to get to a different number of digits?  I don't see natural interbreeding being possible between such divergent species. They are an alien species, compared to us.

Giants on the other hand are clearly much more closely related to humans. And are confirmed to successfully interbreed with humans, producing viable offspring.

Well 4 fingers really but i get ya, was just curious what you thought about those ones. Or of the Lengii or the Naath, both with their golden eyes said to see great in the dark. 

[Leo of House Cartel]

@Free Northman Reborn How might some form of evolution affect things in Planetos? (I hope you will excuse my rather crude attempts at anthropology)

Let's say life in ASOIAF began in the ocean, with various species over time evolving into land dwellers and such. Could the Deep Ones just be a form of fish who have gone down a somewhat similar genetic course to real world humans?

As to the human - ape relationship in ASOIAF. While we have no direct in reference in the book to such Darwinian theories, medieval studies of the matter were certainly few and far between, so the maesters and other learned minds of Planetos can be forgiven for not touching upon it.

That being said, let's have a look at Sothoryos.

Jaenara Belaerys flew her dragon, Terrax, farther south than any man or woman had ever gone before, seeking the boiling seas and steaming rivers of legend, but found only endless jungle, deserts, and mountains. She returned to the Freehold after three years to declare that Sothoryos was as large as Essos, "a land without end."  -  The World of Ice and Fire - Beyond the Free Cities: Sothoryos

This quote would paint it that Jaenara's mission was unfruitful, as she apparently didn't find any major settlements or technologies, however, I wonder how many of the fauna listed in TWOIAF was first discovered by this adventurer. Surely the Green Hell would be impossible to get into and out of unless one had some serious firepower/getaway vehicle?

Due to some Valyrians fondness for keeping certain Sothoryi wildlife as pets, Jaenara and Terrax's journey may have been very influential to the overall Freehold culture

Close to Sothoryos lies Gorgossos, which was eventually used by the more twisted dragonlords as a genetic tampering creche, with human being mated to animal. The big boned brindled men could certainly be looked at as some union between men, ape and perhaps hog.

Listed fauna in the area of Sothoryos, the Basilisk Isles and Summer Isles include numerous apes.

• The "Old Red Men" of Omboru - Orangutan?
• "Silver Pelts" in the mountains of Jhala - Silver back Mountain Gorillas?
• "Night Stalkers" on Walano - Nocturnal primates like some deadly version of a tarsier?
• King Kong in the forests south of Yeen, who dwarf the largest giants - I'll get back to this is a moment.

Over the water in the forests of Leng, we find other primates

• Ten Million Monkeys, per Longstrider
• The Great Apes of Leng, I pressume this is an all encompassing term as other species arementions, perhaps chimpanzees are included.
• Spotted Humpback Apes - not sure about this one
• Hooded Apes - Gigantopithecus?

So here we have multiple species of ape, as well as the possible hybrid natured Brindled Men (they may even be spotted humpbacks who have evolved into a more neanderthal like species. 

Many have postulated that Giants predate humans in ASOIAF, with certain peoples like the Ibbenese and Maze Makers sharing traits with Mag, Wun Wun and co. If this is indeed the case then I wonder what came before the Giants.

Over in the Bone Mountains, we hear tails of the Jhogwin, a race of extra tall Giants who apparently have some rock based characteristics. The long stretching mountain range sounds like a place lost to time, so the snow capped Krazaaj Zasqa could indeed be the origin place of all giants.

Then again, if we look at things from an evolution standpoint then how about that Sothoryi King Kong or the Lengii King Louie being the genetic ancestor to both Giants and Jhogwin? In ASOIAF, Giants have ape like pelts and posture, with long arms, sloping brows and a tendency to roar. This might seem circumstantial, but the sizes and traits do add up.

The resultant genetic course might look something like Kong/Louie-Jhogwin-Giants-Mazemakers-Ibbenese, but I'm merely speculating here so feel free to do your own math!

[Free Northman Reborn]

As I have stated before, I think it is obvious that the prehistory of this world involves some major artificial biological engineering, substituting magic for technology to avoid venturing into the realm of sci-fi. Dragons are the product of such genetic engineering, as are a bunch of other weird hybrids across the world.

The Children are so ancient, that I think they would predate such tampering. They were most likely contemporaries of the ancient civilizations who conducted these experiments. So not all of the species we see in this world are the result of natural evolution, as far as I am concerned.

[Corvo the Crow]

15 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

I beg your pardon, Corvo the Crow.  I'm unsure if your statement about the Squishers and the webbed finger folk is in support or opposition to the idea that there may be some aquatic origins.  It's not always easy to discern  a person's intention in the written word.  

Of course there definitely are legends and rumors and myth and flat out lies in the text.  This is nowhere more apparent than in the fine example you used in your 1st post.  We have the benefit of knowing the truth of the matter in Robb's victory.   Certainly some of the origin stories have grown and changed over time.  I can only offer that there are too many leads to additional information in some of these stories that it begs us to investigate.  

I actually come from the swamp lands in my country.   Food is plentiful, fruit and vegetable and animal.  That may not be true for the neck.   I am less interested in the stature of the Crannogmen than their skill and magic.   How can you not be intrigued by a group of people called bog devils?  Of course much of this conversation stems from my interest in the Wildlings and the mystery of the Ironborn, but I tried to be honest in the OP.  

It is in opposition to squishers being aquatic creatures. There could be folks of aquatic origins, and I believe it is possible that users of oily black stone were an aquatic folk, with it seen mostly close to sea, but even then there are examples of it used far away from the sea; Five Forts But then again, there was an inland sea somewhere nearby if I'm not mistaken so again, possibly of aquatic origin.

Who knows, perhaps it were creatures of deep see somehow being able to spend some time on the surface but they used those stones that drink the light because they are accustomed to the darkness of the depths.

[Rufus Snow]

9 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Like it or not Brother, magic exists in this world. 

Oh, indeed, but so does the SSM which says something like 'don't attribute everything to magic if you can find a natural explanation', which is why I try to first eliminate the impossible, and then see what's left. A lot of the theories tend to fly straight to the magic without discounting the fact that history is the world's most prolific and deliberate unreliable narrator - and we know how George loves those.

 

I'm also wary of extrapolating too much from turns of phrase as well, just one example (sorry, Leo, not picking on you especially):

2 hours ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

Here is a description of Dagon Codd.

"Is that a threat?" One of the Codds pushed to his feet. A big man, but pop-eyed and wide of mouth, with dead white flesh. He looked as if his father had sired him on a fish ADWD, Theon II:

Note that Theon says

Quote

... as if his father had sired him on a fish

There's a lot said in that 'as if'. It says it isn't really so, it's just 'as if'.

That's why I'm cautious about many of the claims Westreosi make about each other. I don't believe there is any PROOF in the books of giants interbreeding with humans, just lots of big men looking 'as if' they were sired by giants. Obviously if anyone can point to some text that offers PROOF of such cross-breeding, I will revise my view.

A certain degree of gigantism is normal in human populations, same with dwarfism, webbed-digits, albinism etc etc. In our own world there is a particular 'hot spot' of gigantism in Ireland, which dates back over 2,500 years according to geneticists, and well placed for provoking much of the giant folklore found in that part of the world (see here for more) We need not attribute this sort of occurence to interbreeding with another species of actual giants because it can happen naturally amongst a purely human population. It's 'as if' these people had giants as ancestors. 

You see, part of what I think George is getting at is how insufficient knowledge of others (note the small 'o' ...) leads people (us) to exagerrate differences, to privilege our own cultures over theirs, and to create grand narratives for ourselves to justify our prejudices and the way we lord it over and exploit others. And to some degree in a tribal world a lot of that may be necessary for social cohesion.

We really don't have to look THAT far back in our history to find Western Europeans believing that dog-headed men and centaurs lived on the Eurasian steppe, and some of the creatures ascribed to parts of Africa are just as fantastic as some of the tales of Essos or Sothyros. 'Here be dragons' on a map usually means 'we never went that far', not literally that there were dragons wafting around Earth in the 15th-century. Centaurs turned out to be mounted archers, and dog-headed men still haven't been seen (although the practice of facial scarification amongst certain steppe nomads could easily explain features that to Western eyes are bestial and ugly).

 

Coming back to the Ironborn - as I said above, they are indistinguishable by and large from other men physically. They may have been another wave of First Men with ships - but ships are only a technology, and all technologies appear with one group or another first before others take it up, like fire, iron etc etc. What distinguishes the Ironborn truly is their culture - that accumulation of technology, belief, and narrative they use to differentiate themselves. Even in the Ironborn chapters, we do not, as readers, SEE any merlings, Deep Ones, squishers or selkies - their existence is purely narrative. On the other hand, we DO see giants, Children/Singers, dragons, Others. And I tend to think this is deliberately written to make us question what is real magic and what is cultural bragadoccio. On the general basis of 'text or it didn't happen', I still maintain the latter far outweighs the former.

 

 

[Free Northman Reborn]

6 minutes ago, Rufus Snow said:

Oh, indeed, but so does the SSM which says something like 'don't attribute everything to magic if you can find a natural explanation', which is why I try to first eliminate the impossible, and then see what's left. A lot of the theories tend to fly straight to the magic without discounting the fact that history is the world's most prolific and deliberate unreliable narrator - and we know how George loves those.

 

I'm also wary of extrapolating too much from turns of phrase as well, just one example (sorry, Leo, not picking on you especially):

Note that Theon says

There's a lot said in that 'as if'. It says it isn't really so, it's just 'as if'.

That's why I'm cautious about many of the claims Westreosi make about each other. I don't believe there is any PROOF in the books of giants interbreeding with humans, just lots of big men looking 'as if' they were sired by giants. Obviously if anyone can point to some text that offers PROOF of such cross-breeding, I will revise my view.

A certain degree of gigantism is normal in human populations, same with dwarfism, webbed-digits, albinism etc etc. In our own world there is a particular 'hot spot' of gigantism in Ireland, which dates back over 2,500 years according to geneticists, and well placed for provoking much of the giant folklore found in that part of the world (see here for more) We need not attribute this sort of occurence to interbreeding with another species of actual giants because it can happen naturally amongst a purely human population. It's 'as if' these people had giants as ancestors. 

You see, part of what I think George is getting at is how insufficient knowledge of others (note the small 'o' ...) leads people (us) to exagerrate differences, to privilege our own cultures over theirs, and to create grand narratives for ourselves to justify our prejudices and the way we lord it over and exploit others. And to some degree in a tribal world a lot of that may be necessary for social cohesion.

We really don't have to look THAT far back in our history to find Western Europeans believing that dog-headed men and centaurs lived on the Eurasian steppe, and some of the creatures ascribed to parts of Africa are just as fantastic as some of the tales of Essos or Sothyros. 'Here be dragons' on a map usually means 'we never went that far', not literally that there were dragons wafting around Earth in the 15th-century. Centaurs turned out to be mounted archers, and dog-headed men still haven't been seen (although the practice of facial scarification amongst certain steppe nomads could easily explain features that to Western eyes are bestial and ugly).

 

Coming back to the Ironborn - as I said above, they are indistinguishable by and large from other men physically. They may have been another wave of First Men with ships - but ships are only a technology, and all technologies appear with one group or another first before others take it up, like fire, iron etc etc. What distinguishes the Ironborn truly is their culture - that accumulation of technology, belief, and narrative they use to differentiate themselves. Even in the Ironborn chapters, we do not, as readers, SEE any merlings, Deep Ones, squishers or selkies - their existence is purely narrative. On the other hand, we DO see giants, Children/Singers, dragons, Others. And I tend to think this is deliberately written to make us question what is real magic and what is cultural bragadoccio. On the general basis of 'text or it didn't happen', I still maintain the latter far outweighs the former.

 

 

The wildlings described human-giant interbreeding in a rather matter-of-fact fashion. Down to describing how it is only possible when the male is human and the female is a giant, and not the other way around, due to the size of the baby that is produced. They seem to have pretty detailed knowledge of it, as opposed to myths and legends.

 

[Rufus Snow]

11 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

The wildlings described human-giant interbreeding in a rather matter-of-fact fashion. Down to describing how it is only possible when the male is human and the female is a giant, and not the other way around, due to the size of the baby that is produced. They seem to have pretty detailed knowledge of it, as opposed to myths and legends.

Interesting - I've missed that to date. Do you have a reference or should I just add it to the list of things to look out for in my re-read 'agenda'?

[Free Northman Reborn]

5 minutes ago, Rufus Snow said:

Interesting - I've missed that to date. Do you have a reference or should I just add it to the lsit of things to look out for in my re-read 'agenda'?

Osha, talking to Bran in Book 1:

"Let Maester Luwin ride beyond the Wall," Osha said. "He'll find giants then, or they'll find him. My brother killed one. Ten foot tall she was, and stunted at that. They've been known to grow big as twelve and thirteen feet. Fierce things they are too, all hair and teeth, and the wives have beards like their husbands, so there's no telling them apart. The women take human men for lovers, and it's from them the half bloods come. It goes harder on the women they catch. The men are so big they'll rip a maid apart before they get her with child." She grinned at him. "But you don't know what I mean, do you, boy?"

[Rufus Snow]

Aha! Yes, I'd forgotten that, and I'd definitely take Osha's word over a maesters :bow:

[Leo of House Cartel]

@Rufus Snow Fine points my friend, you are correct that George uses peoples perceptions of the unknown to cloud the judgement of readers, look at how the Free Folk are described by everyone but Jon! I think a good chunk of the world building material will be just this.

Sometime I have even wondered if the Brindled Men of Sothoryos are merely large, dark skinned people who wear white ceremonial/war paint like certain African tribes, their brindled skin a result of scarification processes popular in many tribal areas in the real world.If this is the case then it may have been these people who first settled in the Summer Isles or vice-versa.

Then again, while we have no hard proof of many curiosities such as Deep Ones and Giant/human breeding, there is always the chance that George is keeping such reveals for later texts. We had no real proof that Mel could really use magical powers until we saw her birth the shadow baby so anything is possible in future books.

What are your thoughts on Rhoynar water wizards? Do you think this an example of Valyrian posturing? Something like "oh they only killed a few of our dragons because they had a goddamn hydro sorceror!" or is there some truth behind the matter?

The reason I ask is that we have already seen examples of the Others using ice based powers - be they natural or unnatural -  ice is obviously frozen water, so I wonder if there is any link between the two. If the Deep Ones do exist, would the ice/water connection have any bearings on their relationship to the Others?

I wonder how the Iron Born, or even the Deep Ones would view the tales of Rhoynar water wizards.

This could play into @Curled Finger's original line of questioning, as the Rhoynar, like the FM, would have had to either been able to use water magic since their beginnings, or something would have had to teach them such arts. Perhaps the Deep Ones and the Rhoynar share the similar relationship to how we view the FM and COTF.

In regards to the Iron Born, I find it interesting we have no accounts of some Greyjoy or Hoare summoning a water wall (which I always took as some kind of whirpool on land/aqua tornado).

[Rufus Snow]

@Leo of House Cartel   I haven't delved deeply ('scuse the pun) into the Rhoynar, but my first thoughts are to distinguish salt and fresh water, for one, and to wonder whether they just used hydro-engineering like releasing a dam to flood Volon Therys, but sort of doubt that.

I'm also thinking that water is between the extremes of ice and fire, but that doesn't mean it has no magic of its own. Maybe we should think along the lines of water quenching fire, and also melting ice. The Rhoynar civilisation seemed 'well adjusted' compared to its neighbours, the grown-ups of the region, and powerful enough to resist both the Freehold and wilder sorts roaming the continent. And of course, they have a very different Long Night mythos to the other peoples. That the Rhoyne froze down to the Selhoru suggests we ought to see water in opposition to ice as much as it is in opposition to fire. And their story of the ending of the Long Night has no swords, magical or otherwise, but a song, albeit sung by gods.

I can't think of any real world analogues for the Rhoynar, unless it takes in elements of ancient Mesopotamia (the many city states with a largely coherent worldview), and elements of Egypt (being river-based).

So, I'm going to wibble a bit: maybe water magic, along with the Children's Tree (or possibly Earth) magic represent 'natural' magics as opposed to the sorceries of ice and fire?

 

 

[Leo of House Cartel]

@Rufus Snow I can't argue with that, and your mentions of the Rhoynar Long Night, as well as "water melting ice" certainly draw many questions.

It's interesting to think of Ice and Fire magic as unnatural and perhaps in direct competition with water and tree based forces, and if this is indeed the case then I wonder how pure the Song of Ice and Fire itself might be.

 

[Free Northman Reborn]

4 minutes ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

@Rufus Snow I can't argue with that, and your mentions of the Rhoynar Long Night, as well as "water melting ice" certainly draw many questions.

It's interesting to think of Ice and Fire magic as unnatural and perhaps in direct competition with water and tree based forces, and if this is indeed the case then I wonder how pure the Song of Ice and Fire itself might be.

 

Well I believe we are given a clue about this in the Crannnogmen's ancient oath of fealty to Winterfell:

"To Winterfell we pledge the faith of Greywater," they said together. "Hearth and heart and harvest we yield up to you, my lord. Our swords and spears and arrows are yours to command. Grant mercy to our weak, help to our helpless, and justice to all, and we shall never fail you."

"I swear it by earth and water," said the boy in green.

"I swear it by bronze and iron," his sister said.

"We swear it by ice and fire," they finished together.

 

I think what we have here is a revelation of the three different categories of "powers" in the history of the world, as well as the order in which they arrived. I think that Earth and Water represents natural magic, which is the oldest magic in the world, and predates humanity. This is the magic of the Elder races. The Children of the Forest represent Earth (Those Who Sing the Song of the Earth). And I think the Deep Ones were the original representatives of Water. Maybe the Rhoynar learnt some remnants of that Water magic in later years.

 

In my mind I have an era going back to a million years ago, or some such massive time period during which these powers held sway over the world.

 

Then the age of humanity arrived. And humans brought with them not magic, but the power of technology. Bronze at first, but much later, also iron. This represents the "Bronze and Iron" part of the oath. This I date back maybe 20,000 to 30,000 years or so, with primitive tribes emerging from the Stone Age to spread across the world, fearfully at first, at the mercy of these wiser, elder races, but with numbers, high birth rates and ingenuity on their side.

 

Then, maybe 8,000 to 12,000 years ago or thereabouts Fire and Ice arrived in the world. I see these as alien powers that are not of this world but were unleashed due to some misuse of magic or maybe the arrival of alien races from beyond this world. This is symbolized by the second moon that exploded in the sky, birthing dragons in the ancient legends. The point being that humans were already around and able to witness and record this event for future generations. This was the time of the ancient race that built Ashaii, and the weird events that led to the Long Night.

 

Thousands of years later the primitive Valyrians would harness a remnant of this Fire magic to tame the remaining dragons in the Fourteen Flames and birth their Empire.

 

Anyway, what it all comes back to, are the three categories of magic in the ancient oath of the Crannogmen, which at its simplest I will categorize as Natural magic, Technology, and Unnatural magic. And we all know which of those three categories the Maesters are trying to advance to supplant and eradicate the others completely.

 

[Rufus Snow]

Hmm, I was beginning to think this was going a bit off-topic, but I think maybe it's coming back to the original question. I'm now seeing there may be parallels between the Rhoynar being forced to move by the fire magic of Valyria and the Free Folk and Singers (I prefer that name to Children) being pushed aside by the ice magic of the Others. There is a certain symmetry there.

 

Why makes me wonder how many of the other migrations have been driven by the same processes? Certainly the Andals fled the Freehold, and legend has it that the First Men moved before the Freehold arose, so could there have been other upwellings of 'unnatural' forces, or was their migration simply a result of wandering around.

The legend of Garth Greenhand suggests the First Man didn't take up agriculture until they settled Westeros, so there is a parallel to real-world hunter-gatherer tribes following the game over the next hill, and the next hill, etc until they found themselves on the far side of the Earth?

I'm thinking the society of the Fisher Queens is the original heimat of many of the races of men we see in Essos and Westeros, as a sort of parallel to the proto-IndoEuropeans in our own world:

Quote

The World of Ice and Fire - Beyond the Free Cities: The Grasslands

Sufficient tales survive to convince most maesters of the past existence of the Silver Sea, though because of diminishing rainfall over the centuries, it has shrunk so severely that today only three great lakes remain where once its waters glistened in the sun.

The Fisher Queens were wise and benevolent and favored of the gods, we are told, and kings and lords and wise men sought the floating palace for their counsel. Beyond their domains, however, other peoples rose and fell and fought, struggling for a place in the sun. Some maesters believe that the First Men originated here before beginning the long westward migration that took them across the Arm of Dorne to Westeros. The Andals, too, may have arisen in the fertile fields south of the Silver Sea. Tales are told of the Hairy Men, a race of shaggy savage warriors, who rode to battle on unicorns. Though larger than the Ibbenese of the present, they may well have been their forebears. We hear as well of the lost city Lyber, where acolytes of a spider goddess and a serpent god fought an endless, bloody war. East of them stood the kingdoms of the centaurs, half man and half horse.

It's interesting that this society is based around the inland sea known as the Silver Sea, because this is another prallel to the PIE heimat which seems likely to be based near the Black Sea - on the edge of steppeland, to boot. As Black to Silver is a simple inversion on GRRM's part, so is the fate of the two seas. The Silver Sea dwindles over time, yet the Black Sea flooded catastrophically just prior to the great radiation of the Indo-Europeans - another inverted parallel. (Personally I believe this event is the deep memory that created flood myths in our world, and it is notable that Mount Ararat, the biblical landing point of the Ark, is close by). As the PIE radiated and created many new 'races' and languages in the IE grouping, we would expect similar to happen in Essos.

In such a Völkerwanderung the First Men, Rhoynar, Andals and Ironborn could all have been spawned by different groups going off in different directions, developing their own societies, languages and myths as they went, all arriving in Westeros by different routes and at different times due to being forced along by wars and magic and conquest.

[Rufus Snow]

18 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

"I swear it by earth and water," said the boy in green.

"I swear it by bronze and iron," his sister said.

"We swear it by ice and fire," they finished together.

Oh, yes! Good catch - that does give a satisfying arc.

[Curled Finger]

8 hours ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

 

@Curled Finger  Tremendous conversation to start with some real tantalising theories getting thrown about! While I can't offer a solid answer of my own to your original question, I would like to reference the human connection to the carvers of the Seastone chair.

@hiemal Your work in this thread has been awesome and you paint a fantastic picture of potential early events. As you have a fondness for the ocean centred aspect of things, how do you and our OP feel the members of House Codd may play into proceedings?

Apparently the least regarded of the reaving IB houses, I feel that they themselves may offer plenty of hints towards the nature of the Deep Ones, Squishers and Merlings - perhaps more evidence hidden in plain sight from George.

Maester Theron's illustrations in the ominously titled "Strange Stones" postulates that the religion of the Drowned God had it's beginnings with the Deep Ones, which is interesting considering the priests of the Drowned God like Sauron Salt Tongue would tell you that the Ironborn are more closely related to aquatic life than they are to the humans of the green lands.

What's odd about this is that a fish like appearance is more common in areas such as The Three Sisters, Isle of Toads or Thousand Isles than it is on the Iron Isles. In saying that, we do have the members of House Codd. 

Here is a description of Dagon Codd.

"Is that a threat?" One of the Codds pushed to his feet. A big man, but pop-eyed and wide of mouth, with dead white flesh. He looked as if his father had sired him on a fish ADWD, Theon II:

We also have the captain of the Lamentation, "Bloodless" Tom Codd. This handle could be related to the famous Codd cowardice, but considering Tom is a ship captain, I think it more likely points at "dead white flesh".

House Codd has an ill repute on the Iron Islands, itself a place with the worst reputation in Westeros, which really tells you how bad these people must be.

"The Codds were there, though every decent man despised them"  - A Feast for Crows - The Iron Captain

"One of the Codds even tried to kiss Lord Ramsay's ring, but the hounds drove him back before he could get close, and Alison took a chunk of his ear. Even as the blood streamed down his neck, the man bobbed and bowed and praised his lordship's mercy". - A Dance with Dragons - Reek II

In these quotes we see the Codds engage begging to Ramsay in a very unsightly manner. Considering the Ironborn culture is rooted in rape and reaving,  something the Codds enjoy, what constitutes as "indecent behaviour" to the IB? Is it simply the cowardly acts such as kissing Ramsays ring which draws  the ire of their country men, or something more sinister?

One angle we could look at is the similiar behavioural patters displayed by certain members of House Codd and the various humanoid aquatic races, each of whom may of course be one and the same

• "Though All Men Do Despise Us," Tris said, "but if they catch you in those nets of theirs, you'll be as dead as if they had been dragonlords". -  A Feast for Crows - The Kraken's Daughter
• At some point Left-Hand Lucas Codd decided he wanted one of Lord Hewett's daughters, so he took her on a table whilst her sisters screamed and sobbed. A Feast for Crows - The Reaver
• "The Codds were not well regarded in the Iron Islands; the men were said to be thieves and cowards, the women wantons who bedded with their own fathers and brothers. It did not surprise him that his uncle had chosen to leave these men behind when the Iron Fleet went home.” - Theon Greyjoy's thoughts at Moat Cailin

Here we see the Codds being described as having strange sexual habits, a fondness for sexual abuse and an apparent gift for "trapping" if those nets are anything to go by.

What's the story with those nets anyway? One would think having strong fishing equipment would endear a brood to the general Iron Men populace in some ways. "As dead as if they had been Dragonlords" seems like quite the compliment for Asha to bestow on a family of cravens, giving a good insight into how brutal the Codds can be to the people they catch.

Compare this to the following description of the squishers

"They look like men till you get close, but their heads is too big, and they got scales where a proper man's got hair. Fish-belly white they are, with webs between their fingers. They're always damp and fishy-smelling, but behind those blubbery lips they got rows of green teeth sharp as needles. Some say the First Men killed them all, but don't you believe it. They come by night and steal bad little children, padding along on them webbed feet with a little squish-squish sound. The girls they keep to breed with, but the boys they eat, tearing at them with those sharp green teeth."

Essentially, the Codds look like the squishers, and both are known to kidnap/trap their victims before either murdering or breeding with them. Whether or not this is a result of the ancestors of House Codd being some of those small kids taken by the squishers one can not say, but the description of the family's forefathers being "thralls and salt wives" could be construed as slaves and hostages of these grim ocean dwellers.

"Though all men do despise us" - the words of House Codd. Perhaps this is some loose reference to the Deep Ones, Squishers or such. 

We also have Dagon Codd's infamous "Dagon Codd yields to no man" bit - this could also be looked at as Dagon having a distane for humans, perhaps he would be more than willing to yield for some squamous, fish headed type.

I'm not trying to say that House Codd will be some important factor in the next books, but I do believe this lowly family serve as evidence towards the inter species breeding mentioned by@Faera and @kissdbyfire. The white skinned net weilders might even have a stronger blood link to The Grey King, Deep Ones or Drowned God than the rest of the Iron Born.

There are the stories of people laying with beasts from various places like Asshai and Gorgossos, as well as the seal based rumours surrounding House Farwynd, the Crannogmen's connection to the COTF and the various Ocean based mythologies, much evidence, yet still no clarity. 

 

 

 

Excellent and bravo, Leo!   I had a feeling this discussion might catch your eye and I'm very pleased to have you here with us.  Your House Codd definitely bears investigation.   Really looking forward to @hiemal's take on this too.   If you had a chance to go back over everyone's piece in this we have the Squishers being directly compared to the Cranngomen and it's a very good comparison.   Now we have 2 people to compare them too, but because I am under a spell of wonder in this topic please allow me to draw a comparison between House Codd and Craster.   I'm reading all your wonderful information and thinking, Gads! this is Craster.   I'm sure that has more to do with the bad reputation and incest (maybe hoarding with net fishing?) but that was my initial impression.   As I say, Bravo!