House Frey should be respected

[Bullrout]

40 minutes ago, Lordth said:

Freys are really interesting bunch tbh I’ll like to know their history and their rise to prominence (off course ik it’s from bridge but I wanna know more than that )from nothing to being rich and powerful House.I’d like to know their marriages before Walder Frey too (like which houses accepted to marry with them.

House Frey didn't win their riches on the battlefield.  They won it through hard work and ingenuity.  Their bridge is an admirable feat of engineering by Westeros standards.  Credit the founding members of the family for thinking ahead and leaving behind something the future generations can build upon.  It's hard not to admire them.  Just about every other house got its wealth through collecting taxes from their smallfolk.  The Freys collect toll from everyone who uses their bridge.  That's a lot of income coming in that doesn't put all of the burden on their smallfolk. 

[Nowy Tends]

1 hour ago, Bullrout said:

 Most if not all Westerosi families will break guest rights rather than continue to support a dishonorable fellow like Robb. 

That is simply not true.

This was the only way open to the Freys to extricate themselves from a losing alliance to a man who broke his oaths to them. 

No. They had options, which are debated in this thread…

 

[Bullrout]

25 minutes ago, Nowy Tends said:

 

Most families will break guest rights and any other taboo if given enough reason to do so.  Just look what Manderly did.  The man is a cannibal and he did it for revenge.  I will even accuse him of breaking guest rights because he tricked his host into eating human flesh.  Manderly had a choice.  He can forgive, after all they were rebelling against the crown, which is illegal in itself and they were outlaws.  He did not have to murder the Freys.  I stand by what I said.  Most families will break customs if given enough reason to do it.  They Freys had good reason to do it.  They could be facing excessive fines for their part in the rebellion and may even lose their bridge.  It's worth killing Robb to avoid the possibilities of losing their bridge.

[Nowy Tends]

Here we are again. The snake bites its tail. Thirteen pages of discussion and when you think it's over, someone restarts from scratch regardless of what was said previously…

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

1 hour ago, Nowy Tends said:

Here we are again. The snake bites its tail. Thirteen pages of discussion and when you think it's over, someone restarts from scratch regardless of what was said previously…

My thoughts exactly. 

[Clegane'sPup]

3 hours ago, Bullrout said:

Most families will break guest rights and any other taboo if given enough reason to do so.

Actually you are probably correct. That may be people in today's world don't turn in their relatives.

This is merely my opinion and you know what opinions are like --- everyone has one. Part of the problem when talking about this saga is that individuals project their opinions onto scenarios that happen in the fictional Westeros.

Real simple, guest right means ---- I don't like or trust you--- right now you are a guest in my abode and you best be getting on your way tomorrow. Except in this saga Lord Frey already was involved in a deceptive plan to murder guests at a wedding celebration.

Lord Walder Frey said:

A Storm of Swords - Catelyn VI      Walder Frey's mouth moved in and out. "Food, heh. A loaf of bread, a bite of cheese, mayhaps a sausage."  "Some wine to wash it down," Robb said. "And salt."    "Bread and salt. Heh. Of course, of course." The old man clapped his hands together, and servants came into the hall, bearing flagons of wine and trays of bread, cheese, and butter. Lord Walder took a cup of red himself, and raised it high with a spotted hand. "My guests," he said. "My honored guests. Be welcome beneath my roof, and at my table."/

According to the above quote Lord Frey led the so called King of the North, this mother and their men to believe that they were guests at a wedding even though he  knew what the outcome was going to be.

Compare that with whether providing your guest with hospitality is the opposite of a lord  laying an unsheathed sword across his knees while sitting his chair?

A Game of Thrones - Bran IV     Robb was seated in Father's high seat, wearing ringmail and boiled leather and the stern face of Robb the Lord. <snip>  Bran could sense the anger in the hall the moment that Hodor carried him through the doors.    "Any man of the Night's Watch is welcome here at Winterfell for as long as he wishes to stay," Robb was saying with the voice of Robb the Lord. His sword was across his knees, the steel bare for all the world to see. Even Bran knew what it meant to greet a guest with an unsheathed sword.    "Any man of the Night's Watch," the dwarf repeated, "but not me, do I take your meaning, boy?"/

I've got a dilemma here. One lord says welcome to my hall you are guests. vs another lord saying you ain't welcome. Which lord killed his guests?

A Storm of Swords - Epilogue     Lord Walder had ordered the slaughter of the Starks at Roslin's wedding, but it had been Lame Lothar who had plotted it out with Roose Bolton, all the way down to which songs would be played./

The Red Wedding was my father's work, and Ryman's and Lord Bolton's. Lothar rigged the tents to collapse and put the crossbowmen in the gallery with the musicians, Bastard Walder led the attack on the camps . . . they're the ones you want, not me, I only drank some wine . . . you have no witness."   "As it happens, you're wrong there." The singer turned to the hooded woman. "Milady?"/

 

 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

1 hour ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Actually you are probably correct. That may be people in today's world don't turn in their relatives.

This is merely my opinion and you know what opinions are like --- everyone has one. Part of the problem when talking about this saga is that individuals project their opinions onto scenarios that happen in the fictional Westeros.

Real simple, guest right means ---- I don't like or trust you--- right now you are a guest in my abode and you best be getting on your way tomorrow. Except in this saga Lord Frey already was involved in a deceptive plan to murder guests at a wedding celebration.

Lord Walder Frey said:

A Storm of Swords - Catelyn VI      Walder Frey's mouth moved in and out. "Food, heh. A loaf of bread, a bite of cheese, mayhaps a sausage."  "Some wine to wash it down," Robb said. "And salt."    "Bread and salt. Heh. Of course, of course." The old man clapped his hands together, and servants came into the hall, bearing flagons of wine and trays of bread, cheese, and butter. Lord Walder took a cup of red himself, and raised it high with a spotted hand. "My guests," he said. "My honored guests. Be welcome beneath my roof, and at my table."/

According to the above quote Lord Frey led the so called King of the North, this mother and their men to believe that they were guests at a wedding even though he  knew what the outcome was going to be.

Compare that with whether providing your guest with hospitality is the opposite of a lord  laying an unsheathed sword across his knees while sitting his chair?

A Game of Thrones - Bran IV     Robb was seated in Father's high seat, wearing ringmail and boiled leather and the stern face of Robb the Lord. <snip>  Bran could sense the anger in the hall the moment that Hodor carried him through the doors.    "Any man of the Night's Watch is welcome here at Winterfell for as long as he wishes to stay," Robb was saying with the voice of Robb the Lord. His sword was across his knees, the steel bare for all the world to see. Even Bran knew what it meant to greet a guest with an unsheathed sword.    "Any man of the Night's Watch," the dwarf repeated, "but not me, do I take your meaning, boy?"/

I've got a dilemma here. One lord says welcome to my hall you are guests. vs another lord saying you ain't welcome. Which lord killed his guests?

A Storm of Swords - Epilogue     Lord Walder had ordered the slaughter of the Starks at Roslin's wedding, but it had been Lame Lothar who had plotted it out with Roose Bolton, all the way down to which songs would be played./

The Red Wedding was my father's work, and Ryman's and Lord Bolton's. Lothar rigged the tents to collapse and put the crossbowmen in the gallery with the musicians, Bastard Walder led the attack on the camps . . . they're the ones you want, not me, I only drank some wine . . . you have no witness."   "As it happens, you're wrong there." The singer turned to the hooded woman. "Milady?"/

 

 

I agree. Most people would do all sorts of things that may be generally out of character for them given the right situation. 

The original quote read:

Quote

Most if not all Westerosi families will break guest rights rather than continue to support a dishonorable fellow like Robb

Which is what I call on. 

Interesting parallel between Robb & Walder provided by your quotes though which leads me to ask, a more interesting question IMO, who is right? I personally feel Robb is the more honorable of the two evidenced by, among other things, the text you quoted, however, Robb & family are dead while Walder & (most) of his family are alive. At least for now. Of course Walder had other options that may have led to the survival of his family. 

[Kandrax]

I believe that some Freys participated in RW only because of family loyalty.

[Varysblackfyre321]

16 minutes ago, Kandrax said:

I believe that some Freys participated in RW only because of family loyalty.

Probably. Can't really say no to old Walder. Shame, some stark loyalists (like most tribalists), like Manderly think an action by a by an entire house means every member must be rotten to the core and punished. I have to say I find him just as deplorable as Lord Frey. 

[Kandrax]

1 minute ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Probably. Can't really say no to old Walder. Shame, stark loyalists (like most tribalists), like Manderly think an action by a by an entire house means every member must be rotten to the core and punished. I have to say I find him just as deplorable as Lord Frey. 

Does Manderly really believes that every  Frey is rotten to core and must be punished? 

[Varysblackfyre321]

4 minutes ago, Kandrax said:

Does Manderly really believes that every  Frey is rotten to core and must be punished? 

Yes. He said it's a good thing little Walder(a 9 year old boy), was murdered because little Walder won't grow up to be a Frey. All Freys are guilty in his eyes. 

[Clegane'sPup]

26 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

The original quote read:

the complete post said

Most if not all families will do what the Freys did to protect themselves from the consequences of supporting the losing side of a rebellion.  Most if not all Westerosi families will break guest rights rather than continue to support a dishonorable fellow like Robb.  I'm not saying trickery isn't bad but they see what Robb did as trickery.  How you feel about the situation depends on whose shoes you're wearing.  I like Lord Walder.  He's one of the more entertainingly funny people and I don't want him to die.  I find it hard to have sympathy for Robb and his bannermen.  I know they were tricked but trickery is the most efficient way to win against a bigger opponent.  The Freys could never hope to fight Robb and his armies directly.  This was the only way open to the Freys to extricate themselves from a losing alliance to a man who broke his oaths to them.

That is not the post I cherry picked. The one I cherry picked is below.

Most families will break guest rights and any other taboo if given enough reason to do so.  Just look what Manderly did.  The man is a cannibal and he did it for revenge.  I will even accuse him of breaking guest rights because he tricked his host into eating human flesh.  Manderly had a choice.  He can forgive, after all they were rebelling against the crown, which is illegal in itself and they were outlaws.  He did not have to murder the Freys.  I stand by what I said.  Most families will break customs if given enough reason to do it.  They Freys had good reason to do it.  They could be facing excessive fines for their part in the rebellion and may even lose their bridge.  It's worth killing Robb to avoid the possibilities of losing their bridge.

So I am going to cherry pick again.

6 hours ago, Bullrout said:

Just look what Manderly did. 

As to Manderly when Glover brings Davos through the passage out of the dungeons:

A Dance with Dragons - Davos IV      "Soon I must return to the feast to toast my friends of Frey,"  Manderly continued. "They watch me, ser. Day and night their eyes are on me, noses sniffing for some whiff of treachery./

Roose, who has been appointed Warden of the North by the IT (Lannister) and Roose & his Frey buddies are trying to intimate Manderly.

A Dance with Dragons - Davos IV      You saw them, the arrogant Ser Jared and his nephew Rhaegar, that smirking worm who wears a dragon's name. Behind them both stands Symond, clinking coins. That one has bought and paid for several of my servants and two of my knights. One of his wife's handmaids has found her way into the bed of my own fool./

A Dance with Dragons - Davos IV      If Stannis wonders that my letters say so little, it is because I dare not even trust my maester. Theomore is all head and no heart. You heard him in my hall. Maesters are supposed to put aside old loyalties when they don their chains, but I cannot forget that Theomore was born a Lannister of Lannisport and claims some distant kinship to the Lannisters of Casterly Rock./

What’s that ----  foes and false friends ---

A Dance with Dragons - Davos IV      Foes and false friends are all around me, Lord Davos. They infest my city like roaches, and at night I feel them crawling over me." The fat man's fingers coiled into a fist, and all his chins trembled. "My son Wendel came to the Twins a guest. He ate Lord Walder's bread and salt, and hung his sword upon the wall to feast with friends. And they murdered him./

A Dance with Dragons - Davos IV Murdered, I say, and may the Freys choke upon their fables. I drink with Jared, jape with Symond, promise Rhaegar the hand of my own beloved granddaughter … but never think that means I have forgotten. The north remembers, Lord Davos. The north remembers, and the mummer's farce is almost done. My son is home."

In the above Manderly says after all the wheeling and dealing his son is home. Guess that means the son that was held hostage somewhere was cut loose because Manderly killed Davos. No, it was fake out. Manderly dinna actually kill Davos ---- but according to Manderly if push came to shove weeeeeel he mita dun it.

How does Manderly get out of this predicament? Roose is now Warden of the North. Roose’s buddies are Frey’s and Lannister’s. The Lannister’s control the Iron Throne, which is the seat of power in Westeros.

To absolve himself from backlash (good politician that he is) he presents his lying, conniving guests with a going away present. There is an error or a lie in the below quote because it was not until Manderly arrived at Barrowton that Roose decided to move the wedding to WF.

A Dance with Dragons - Davos IV      "And now, my lord?" asked Davos.  He had hoped to hear Lord Wyman say, And now I shall declare for King Stannis, but instead the fat man smiled an odd, twinkling smile and said, "And now I have a wedding to attend.<snip>  Even so, I must go to Winterfell. Roose Bolton wants me on my knees, and beneath the velvet courtesy he shows the iron mail. I shall go by barge and litter, attended by a hundred knights and my good friends from the Twins. The Freys came here by sea. They have no horses with them, so I shall present each of them with a palfrey as a guest gift. Do hosts still give guest gifts in the south?"   "Some do, my lord. On the day their guest departs."

42 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

who is right?

 I do not know.  It seems to me that in this saga Martin has set up scenarios requiring me the reader to pass judgement on his characters. Life experience plays a part. Sometimes I think that that readers forget that besides Martin's interest in history his life experience plays a part.

 

[Nowy Tends]

2 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Yes. He said it's a good thing little Walder(a 9 year old boy), was murdered because little Walder won't grow up to be a Frey. All Freys are guilty in his eyes. 

This is ridiculous; we know Manderly says that because he wants to create panic and disorder inside Winterfell and that's exactly what he gets: Roose sends the Frey troops march in the blizzard toward their fate…

[Kandrax]

25 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Yes. He said it's a good thing little Walder(a 9 year old boy), was murdered because little Walder won't grow up to be a Frey. All Freys are guilty in his eyes. 

Would  he said same thing, if in Lw place was some little girl of Freys who had been brutaly raped and killed?

[Varysblackfyre321]

18 minutes ago, Nowy Tends said:

This is ridiculous; we know Manderly says that because he wants to create panic and disorder inside Winterfell and that's exactly what he gets: Roose sends the Frey troops march in the blizzard toward their fate…

or the guy who takes personal delight in freys(not even one who did anything personally against him), unknowingly committing canibalism really thinks all Freys deserve to suffer. He's not really a good guy. And Roose sends both the Manderly's and Freys out in response to Stannis close to WF. 

[Varysblackfyre321]

1 minute ago, Kandrax said:

Would  he said same thing, if in Lw place was some little girl of Freys who had been brutaly raped and killed?

Eh, probably.

[Varysblackfyre321]

36 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Most families will break guest rights and any other taboo if given enough reason to do so.  Just look what Manderly did.  The man is a cannibal and he did it for revenge.  I will even accuse him of breaking guest rights because he tricked his host into eating human flesh.

Oh yeah once Davos ate his table he was his guest no? Yet Manderly makes very clear he'd sell out his guest in a heart beat if it'd save a member of his own family.

[Clegane'sPup]

2 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Oh yeah once Davos ate his table he was his guest no? Yet Manderly makes very clear he'd sell out his guest in a heart beat if it'd save a member of his own family.

Your are actually gonna make me go back and read this frekking thread to show that the quote-------

Actually no Davos is not his "guest". For all intent and purposes Davos was Manderly's prisoner. And yes, Manderly made it clear that if the trick did not work Davos would die.

[The Sunland Lord]

6 hours ago, Nowy Tends said:

Here we are again. The snake bites its tail. Thirteen pages of discussion and when you think it's over, someone restarts from scratch regardless of what was said previously…

"I hate the Starks. I'm very cool and unique. Isn't that so much special?" 

[Varysblackfyre321]

18 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Your are actually gonna make me go back and read this frekking thread to show that the quote-------

Actually no Davos is not his "guest". For all intent and purposes Davos was Manderly's prisoner. And yes, Manderly made it clear that if the trick did not work Davos would die.

I wouldn't dream of asking you re-read this thread to find a quote.

Hmmm on second thoughts yeah you're right-Manderly merely having dinner Davos doesn't automatically make Davos a guest and no longer his prisoner. So as of yet, Manderly has not violated guest right. He hasn't eaten the Bolton's food so they aren't entitled to guest rights.