House Frey should be respected

[Ser Duncan of Flea Bottom]

The Freys of old deserved respect, in that I agree. As for Lord Walder Frey, he is just a greedy man, he is loyal to no one but himself, he is not loyal to the crown, he is not loyal to his Lord Paramount, I would never trust him, it was a pity Robb needed that bloody bridge to split his army. Mind you, I don't consider all Freys bad (the current ones), I liked Ser Stevron, I also liked Olyvar, Robb's squire, they were good men, there were a few others I also considered good. But I never liked the old man, he should have died a long time ago, I am quite sure Ser Stevron would have been a better Lord of the Crossing, I saw him as a brave man and he seemed to have at least a bit of honour.

[Kandrax]

3 hours ago, Blackwater Revenant said:

I must say, this whole defense of the Freys that they had no choice other than to commit the atrocity of the Red Wedding is just ridiculous.

First off, there is absolutely no evidence to suggest that they were pressured into committing this act by Tywin. In fact, the only thing we have alluding to who is responsible here, is Tywin stating that the Red Wedding is on the Freys, and that his hands are clean.

Secondly, the notion that the Freys saving themselves by these means is justifiable, is frankly, absurd and appalling.

If some scum bag broke into a home and proceeded to rape the woman he found residing there, would anyone claim, should that woman's husband or father come home and catch him in the act, that he would have no choice, and be justified in murdering that man in order to save his own skin?

This is the same situation the Freys found themselves in. They were not forced into supporting Robb's cause. Walder took Rob's predicament as an opportunity to coerce Robb into bringing about gains for his own family, and chose to rebel against the Crown in order to ensure his aspirations could be obtained.

The fact that Robb betrayed his word to Walder is irrelevant. He made his bed, now it's his responsibility to sleep in it. The only relevance of Robb's betrayal is in showing that Walder's actions weren't out of necessity, but as a means of getting revenge for the slight to his house.

I agree with everything, expect that the fact that Robb betrayed his word to Walder is irrelevant. King should give example to others and if he don't want to keep his word, why would others keep their. Also your example isn't very good.

[Bernie Mac]

14 hours ago, Belwas the Bodyguard said:

Having a lot of kids is bad today.  It's fine back then as long as you can support them.  Infant mortality is quite high and with the Riverlands almost without a break from war, it makes sense to have many children.  Walder uses them to build family alliances. 

Especially when you consider that Walder was born in an age that saw huge amounts of the population die due to the Spring Sickness. He would have witnessed Egg, who was something like the 18th in line of succession at one point become King and even then see his House whittled down to only a few members after Summerhall. 

There are logical reasons why Walder would be in favor of having many legitimate heirs. Him choosing to marry and care for his children rather than simply create bastard after bastard and do nothing for them is actually commendable but somehow even that is seen badly on this forum. 

4 hours ago, Blackwater Revenant said:

 

The fact that Robb betrayed his word to Walder is irrelevant.

No, of course it is not. Robb was paid his price and only after the Freys had betrayed the Crown and died for Robb's cause did he reneg on his agreement. 

I agree the Red Wedding was too far, but to argue that the Freys had no reason to be angry is ridiculous. They were fucked over by the Starks and Walder and the Freys had legitimate reason to want revenge. 

 

 

[Knight Of Winter]

House Frey screwed itself, not just morally, but politically. To put it short, after Rob married Jeyne, they had three options:

1) accept his apology and marry Roslin to Edmure
2) publicly switch sides to Lanniser cause
3) organize RW (what they chose)

With 1) they would end like most Riverlands houses did - lost the war, sued for peace and gave some hostages. With 2) they would have ended up on a winning side and would have probably been rewarded. But with 3), is there single person on this board who thinks Freys will benefit in the long run? Is there anyone who believes Freys house will reach the end of series alive and well? Somebody somehow will screw them up - either Manderly or LS or other Riverlords. Maybe the Faith. Even their own allies basically throw them under the bus as soon as it becomes convenient for them - Cersei muses about executing some members to appease the public furious with RW while Roose Bolton basically treats Frey troops as cannon fodder in the upcoming battle against Stannis.

[Blackwater Revenant]

1 hour ago, Kandrax said:

I agree with everything, expect that the fact that Robb betrayed his word to Walder is irrelevant. King should give example to others and if he don't want to keep his word, why would others keep their.

I mean that it's irrelevant in regards to defending Walder's decision to break guest rights. I agree that it's relevant to the point you made, and as a factor in giving Walder a motive for being offended and wanting revenge.

Quote

Also your example isn't very good.

Why, care to elaborate? Walder decided to commit a treasonous crime in order to further himself - not for Robb's cause as is being claimed - knowing full well that he could be punished if the rebellion wasn't successful. Instead of facing those consequences, he decided (not forced) to commit another heinous act in order to get out of the predicament that he got himself into, and to avoid punishment for a crime he did commit.

[Blackwater Revenant]

17 minutes ago, Knight Of Winter said:

House Frey screwed itself, not just morally, but politically. To put it short, after Rob married Jeyne, they had three options:

1) accept his apology and marry Roslin to Edmure
2) publicly switch sides to Lanniser cause
3) organize RW (what they chose)

With 1) they would end like most Riverlands houses did - lost the war, sued for peace and gave some hostages.

I agree with your post, one thing however. It wasn't a guarantee that the North would have lost the war, had the Freys not turned their cloak, and committed the atrocities at the Red Wedding.

[Varysblackfyre321]

20 minutes ago, Knight Of Winter said:

 

House Frey screwed itself, not just morally, but politically. To put it short, after Rob married Jeyne, they had three options:

1) accept his apology and marry Roslin to Edmure
2) publicly switch sides to Lanniser cause
3) organize RW (what they chose)

With 1) they would end like most Riverlands houses did - lost the war, sued for peace and gave some hostages. With 2) they would have ended up on a winning side and would have probably been rewarded. But with 3), is there single person on this board who thinks Freys will benefit in the long run? Is there anyone who believes Freys house will reach the end of series alive and well? Somebody somehow will screw them up - either Manderly or LS or other Riverlords. Maybe the Faith. Even their own allies basically throw them under the bus as soon as it becomes convenient for them - Cersei muses about executing some members to appease the public furious with RW while Roose Bolton basically treats Frey troops as cannon fodder in the upcoming battle against Stannis.

 

1.) With the likelihood of having to pay some hefty fines and concede some land being the biggest forerunners of the war.

Also, they'd be deprived the chance of vegence on the man who humiliated them. 

And be expected to give a lot more of their men to this oathbreaker. All for a fraction of what he had promised them.

2.) If Tywin asks them to commit the RW how could they say no if they're trying to get back in the IT's good graces? If they publicly bend the knee they'd be marked as the North's enemies. The IT would expect an actual show of being serious about being repentant and ask for even more men to be donated.. And again  they no possibility to gain anything 

for all the sacrifices they made.

 

30 minutes ago, Knight Of Winter said:

3), is there single person on this board who thinks Freys will benefit in the long run? Is there anyone who believes Freys house will reach the end of series alive and well? Somebody somehow will screw them up - either Manderly or LS or other Riverlords. Maybe the Faith. Even their own allies basically throw them under the bus as soon as it becomes convenient for them - Cersei muses about executing some members to appease the public furious with RW while Roose Bolton basically treats Frey troops as cannon fodder in the upcoming battle against Stannis.

I believe the Freys are to dispersed and plenty to die off. Yes they will take massive casualties in terms of men and lose some kin during the war with Stannis (as will probably every house), but from their information they made the choice that seemed to fufil their interests. 

[Universal Sword Donor]

34 minutes ago, Knight Of Winter said:

House Frey screwed itself, not just morally, but politically. To put it short, after Rob married Jeyne, they had three options:

1) accept his apology and marry Roslin to Edmure
2) publicly switch sides to Lanniser cause
3) organize RW (what they chose)

With 1) they would end like most Riverlands houses did - lost the war, sued for peace and gave some hostages. With 2) they would have ended up on a winning side and would have probably been rewarded. But with 3), is there single person on this board who thinks Freys will benefit in the long run? Is there anyone who believes Freys house will reach the end of series alive and well? Somebody somehow will screw them up - either Manderly or LS or other Riverlords. Maybe the Faith. Even their own allies basically throw them under the bus as soon as it becomes convenient for them - Cersei muses about executing some members to appease the public furious with RW while Roose Bolton basically treats Frey troops as cannon fodder in the upcoming battle against Stannis.

They easily could have just not let Robb through and remain neutral. It's not like Robb has the ability to take the castle. He didn't with 20K men. He certainly won't with the 7K men he has, including Roose and his army. If all Walder was concerned about was Robb and Tywin not being a threat, that's all he has to do. It basically kills Robb because Robb has to march all the way down to the Ruby Ford to cross and go back up the KR. He has to go by the mountain, Tywin, Tarly, and and number of loyalist armies.

[Universal Sword Donor]

2 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

1.) With the likelihood of having to pay some hefty fines and concede some land being the biggest forerunners of the war.

Also, they'd be deprived the chance of vegence on the man who humiliated them. 

And be expected to give a lot more of their men to this oathbreaker. All for a fraction of what he had promised them.

This is almost true. They still get a marriage to an LP if not the one they were hoping for. They lose Arya but frankly that one was a crapshoot with her in Lannister hands anyway. Pretty much everything else they get.

* Olyvar as a squire and eventually a knight

* Two grandsons fostered 

2 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

2.) If Tywin asks them to commit the RW how could they say no if they're trying to get back in the IT's good graces? If they publicly bend the knee they'd be marked as the North's enemies. The IT would expect an actual show of being serious about being repentant and ask for even more men to be donated.. And again  they no possibility to gain anything 

for all the sacrifices they made.

Pretty damn easily considering he ransomed 4 Freys when they were actively fighting him and they had his son captive. Or, ya know, done what the Brackens had done and harried any Northmen near the Twins and help capture RR after he leaves. Literally any number of chances. Mallisters fought until the bitter end and they haven't given up any land. The other RLs who showed up to besiege RR didn't lose anything either.

2 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

I believe the Freys are to dispersed and plenty to die off. Yes they will take massive casualties in terms of men and lose some kin during the war with Stannis (as will probably every house), but from their information they made the choice that seemed to fufil their interests. 

I agree the first sentence, but I do not agree with the second.

[Blackwater Revenant]

My Gods!!

This insistence by many on this thread that Walder made this huge sacrifice for Robb's cause is utter hog wash. He could have just as well remained neutral, and not impeded Robb's crossing. His sacrifice was for his own greedy cause, not for Robb's.

[Bernie Mac]

15 minutes ago, Blackwater Revenant said:

My Gods!!

This insistence by many on this thread that Walder made this huge sacrifice for Robb's cause is utter hog wash. He could have just as well remained neutral, and not impeded Robb's crossing. His sacrifice was for his own greedy cause, not for Robb's.

It was for both, the two are not mutually exclusive. Both would have benefited but Robb, after benefiting and taken his price, reneged on his deal after Frey and Frey vassals had died for his cause. It is bizarre that you can't see why the Freys would be incredibly pissed at this. 

The Red Wedding was clearly overboard but they were certainly justified in their anger over being fucked over. 

[Knight Of Winter]

17 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

1.) With the likelihood of having to pay some hefty fines and concede some land being the biggest forerunners of the war.

Also, they'd be deprived the chance of vegence on the man who humiliated them. 

And be expected to give a lot more of their men to this oathbreaker. All for a fraction of what he had promised them.

2.) If Tywin asks them to commit the RW how could they say no if they're trying to get back in the IT's good graces? If they publicly bend the knee they'd be marked as the North's enemies. The IT would expect an actual show of being serious about being repentant and ask for even more men to be donated.. And again  they no possibility to gain anything 

for all the sacrifices they made.

 

I believe the Freys are to dispersed and plenty to die off. Yes they will take massive casualties in terms of men and lose some kin during the war with Stannis (as will probably every house), but from their information they made the choice that seemed to fufil their interests. 

1) How exactly are the Freys forerunners of the war? How are they more involved than e.g. Blackwoods, Mallisters or Brackens? If anything, they're the opposite of forerunners - they are in fact late-comers, arriving with their army only after every other RIverlord was already busy fighting the Lannisters.

2) You constantly try to paint a picture of poor House Frey who were simply backed into a corner and had no other choice than to organize RW. This picture, however, isn't supported by anything in the text. Freys had multiple options, and they chose the worst - the one that is bound to lead to their destruction by any number of possible candidates.

Seeing how lenient Tywin and Lannisters in general were to Riverlords who fought under the very end (Blackwoods, Mallisters, Riverrun staff...), I'd expect they would be overjoyed if one strong enemy house wants to switch side. One rule of politics is to always be generous to defectors, in order to encourage other possible defectors in enemy ranks. Tywin surely knew that.

And by the way, what's the deal with all these Frey sacrifices I keep hearing about? They fought in the war, and unfortunately, war is the time and place where people die. How are Frey sacrifices any more significant than ones of other houses who also lost members in Robb's wars?

All in all, Freys had every right to be pissed off at Robb. They had every right to switch sides if they so chose. What they didn't have a right to is to slaughter thousands of unsuspecting guests under a pretense of reconciliation.

[Clegane'sPup]

3 minutes ago, Blackwater Revenant said:

My Gods!!

This insistence by many on this thread that Walder made this huge sacrifice for Robb's cause is utter hog wash. He could have just as well remained neutral, and not impeded Robb's crossing. His sacrifice was for his own greedy cause, not for Robb's.

 Egads, old Walder could have said I dunna want to get involved Stark. You need to take the long route. I dunna know but the way the Twins are described if doesn't appear that the northmen are much of a threat to old Walder.

I'm unsure, so maybe you or someone else can help me with this ---- I'm asking ---- Frey is a Tully banner man not a Lannister one.

[Knight Of Winter]

29 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

They easily could have just not let Robb through and remain neutral. It's not like Robb has the ability to take the castle. He didn't with 20K men. He certainly won't with the 7K men he has, including Roose and his army. If all Walder was concerned about was Robb and Tywin not being a threat, that's all he has to do. It basically kills Robb because Robb has to march all the way down to the Ruby Ford to cross and go back up the KR. He has to go by the mountain, Tywin, Tarly, and and number of loyalist armies.

Also a possible option.

[Blackwater Revenant]

4 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

It was for both, the two are not mutually exclusive. Both would have benefited but Robb, after benefiting and taken his price, reneged on his deal after Frey and Frey vassals had died for his cause. It is bizarre that you can't see why the Freys would be incredibly pissed at this. 

The Red Wedding was clearly overboard but they were certainly justified in their anger over being fucked over. 

No, as usual, you are making a strawman argument.

What's bizarre is that you constantly quote people on this forum that have made it perfectly clear that they do not wish to discuss anything with you. Perhaps you feel the only way you can win a debate is against someone who isn't participating in said debate, but it's getting quite tired, and rather sad.

[Blackwater Revenant]

15 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Frey is a Tully banner man not a Lannister one.

Exactly this. As has been pointed out previously on this thread, there is no doubt that the Frey's leige Lord would have granted passage to Robb, as he was going to help relieve the attacks being committed against the Riverlands. By impeding Robb's passage, Walder was defying his Leige Lord's will, constituting treason and taking sides with the Lannisters.

[Varysblackfyre321]

43 minutes ago, Knight Of Winter said:

1) How exactly are the Freys forerunners of the war? How are they more involved than e.g. Blackwoods, Mallisters or Brackens? If anything, they're the opposite of forerunners - they are in fact late-comers, arriving with their army only after every other RIverlord was already busy fight

Easy question: They're not. Don't know why I called them the biggest forerunners of the war. They contributed most to Robb's war campaign. 

 

47 minutes ago, Knight Of Winter said:

2) You constantly try to paint a picture of poor House Frey who were simply backed into a corner and had no other choice than to organize RW. This picture, however, isn't supported by anything in the text. Freys had multiple options, and they chose the worst - the one that is bound to lead to their destruction by any number of possible candidates.

They had a few options-none would fufil their interests as the RW would. It was the bed course for them given the information at the time.

 

50 minutes ago, Knight Of Winter said:

And by the way, what's the deal with all these Frey sacrifices I keep hearing about? They fought in the war, and unfortunately, war is the time and place where people die. How are Frey sacrifices any more significant than ones of other houses who also lost members in Robb's wars?

They agreed to fight in a war for Robb's hand. They were one the if the house contributed the most men and resources for Robb's war effort. They sacrificed. Robb dishonored that sacrifice. They wanted vengeance

 

55 minutes ago, Knight Of Winter said:

Freys had every right to be pissed off at Robb. They had every right to switch sides if they so chose. What they didn't have a right to is to slaughter thousands of unsuspecting guests under a pretense of reconciliat

Correction: they slaughtered a couple dozen guests at most.

And Robb's armed escort(army). 

They don't have a right true. 

But it appears to be in their interests to do so.

 

[Blackwater Revenant]

1 hour ago, Clegane'sPup said:

I dunna know but the way the Twins are described if doesn't appear that the northmen are much of a threat to old Walder.

Yes, it seems you are correct here. By the reaction of Robb and his men when they approach the Twins, it would seem that attacking would be unfeasible. Without the time or a presence on both sides of the river, in order to lay siege, the Twins is quite secure.

[Varysblackfyre321]

2 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

This is almost true. They still get a marriage to an LP if not the one they were hoping for. They lose Arya but frankly that one was a crapshoot with her in Lannister hands anyway. Pretty much everything else they get.

* Olyvar as a squire and eventually a knight

* Two grandsons fostered

They agreed for Robb's hand to have governorship of the north. Not Edmure.

That part of the agreement remained unfulfilled. Edmure was nice a liege lord they'd hope to snag tears prior true but still  would be noticble downgrade from Robb. So 2 out of 4 they'd get? 2 Freys being fostered and one squired were simply caveats but not worth all they had contributed to Robb's war effort , they were nice but the reason the Freys had joined was the promise of Robb's  hand

Pretty damn easily considering he ransomed 4 Freys when they were actively fighting him and they had his son captive. Or, ya know, done what the Brackens had done and harried any Northmen near the Twins and help capture RR after he leaves. Literally any number of chances. Mallisters fought until the bitter end and they haven't given up any land. The other RLs who showed up to besiege RR didn't lose anything either.

Yes Tywin had ransomed 4 Freys while they were still on the north's corner. Still, penalties for those who fought on the side of the losers isn't unheard. The chances of them being demanded to give up at least some lands and pay a fine is still very possible. And if they say no they've proven unable to be reliable and whatever will they could be expected to have from Tywin could by saying no. 

 

[Varysblackfyre321]

1 hour ago, Clegane'sPup said:

 Egads, old Walder could have said I dunna want to get involved Stark. You need to take the long route. I dunna know but the way the Twins are described if doesn't appear that the northmen are much of a threat to old Walder.

I'm unsure, so maybe you or someone else can help me with this ---- I'm asking ---- Frey is a Tully banner man not a Lannister one.

 True enough Robb would storm the Freys home and murder em if it wasn't so hard to get through if he could, Walder did not have to join up. He wanted to increase his family's status and willing to commit treason for it. But Lord Tully wasn't with Robb's vanguard no? Didn't personally send out orders for Frey to let down his bridge for the rebels? And he is a vassal of the Ironthrone as well no? Does not that deserve the Freys loyalty?