Robb and Edmure having wives before start of the books.

[Lollygag]

14 minutes ago, Megorova said:

The only time in ASOIAF where incest and uncle X niece were mentioned together, is here:

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Incest

"The views regarding marriages between an uncle and a niece (or an aunt to a nephew) might differ between the Faith and the old gods. Although the High Septon protested against a possible marriage between Prince Maegor and his niece Rhaena,^[3][13] in the north, Serena Stark had been wed to her uncle, Edric, while her sister Sansa Stark had been wed to her uncle Jonnel Stark.^[7] "

 

First sentence is not a quote from the World book, it's just a personal opinion of whoever was writing that entry in the Wikia.

This is other entry regarding that same event:

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/High_Septon_(Aegon_I)

"In 24 AC, when Queen Visenya Targaryen proposed a marriage between her son Maegor and her niece, Princess Rhaena, the High Septon strongly objected. Instead, he suggested his own niece, Lady Ceryse Hightower. Maegor and Ceryse were wed in 25 AC in the Starry Sept in Oldtown,^[3][1][2] with the ceremony performed by the High Septon himself.^[3]"

 

Thus High Septon objected to that marriage between Maegor and Rhaena, not because they were uncle and niece, but because Aegon's first son and crown prince Aenys I Targaryen, already has married with a member of Valyrian family (Alyssa Velaryon). And High Septon wanted for at least King's other son, to marry with someone from Westeros, and not with another Valyrian bride. Furthermore, he wanted second prince to marry not with some random girl from some random royal family of 7K, he wanted his own niece (High Septon's niece) Ceryse Hightower to marry with prince Maegor, and to join Targaryen family and their royal court, and become a princess. 

Rhaena Targaryen was already a Princess, and High Septon wanted for his own niece also to become a Princess. That's why he objected. He objected to Rhaena, not to incest, because there was NO incest in that uncle X niece marriage.

I don't follow the Targ backstory so I have no comment on that either way. And it's not comparable to Cersei or Selyse as they're not Targs.

If uncle/niece, aunt/nephew (or uncle/nephew ) marriage rarely comes up in ~5000 pages of text, then it's not treated as just a normal whatever marriage. I think Alys' almost-marriage and Vic debating marrying Asha are the only cases I can think of in the books and those were both power plays. Basically, incest in Westeros is a sliding scale, not a black or white thing (for non-Targs anyhow). 

I'm not sure if how the Seven has historically seen anything can be applied to the future with any certainty. The High Sparrow and the Faith Militant are a different creature and at the moment anyhow, they're calling the shots. 

Ah, just noticed @Kandrax has clarified his topic title so I guess we're off-topic now!

 

[Lollygag]

55 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Whether in the whole text, or in a separate sentence, the meaning of that line is the same and doesn't change - it was suggestion that they can accuse Selyse in having an affair with her uncle. And affair with her uncle is one crime - adultery. While Cersei's crime was double - her affair with Jaime was adultery and incest.

Is this how you read the books in general? Just isolated sentences? 

[Megorova]

1 hour ago, Lollygag said:

I think Alys' almost-marriage and Vic debating marrying Asha are the only cases I can think of in the books and those were both power plays. Basically, incest in Westeros is a sliding scale, not a black or white thing (for non-Targs anyhow). 

There's also were those Stark sisters, that both married with their Stark uncles.

33 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

Is this how you read the books in general? Just isolated sentences? 

Of course not.

1 hour ago, Lollygag said:

If uncle/niece, aunt/nephew (or uncle/nephew ) marriage rarely comes up in ~5000 pages of text, then it's not treated as just a normal whatever marriage.

That's because usually there's a whole generation between uncle and niece, or aunt and nephew, 15-30 years age gap. It's rarely like in case with Jon and Dany, where their age difference is only 1 year, or even less.

1 hour ago, Lollygag said:

Ah, just noticed @Kandrax has clarified his topic title so I guess we're off-topic now!

On topic - I think it wouldn't have been enough if they were only married. Because someone like Walder (how many times was he married?), could have demanded from Robb to divorce with his first wife, and to marry with one of Frey girls. Could be that even if they already had children, in those first marriages, Walder still would have demanded from Robb, to divorce with his first wife, and marry with a Frey girl. He wanted a Frey child to inherit Winterfell. And what will be serial number of Robb's marriage with his Frey-wife, was irrelevant for Walder.

[Lollygag]

25 minutes ago, Megorova said:

On topic - I think it wouldn't have been enough if they were only married. Because someone like Walder (how many times was he married?), could have demanded from Robb to divorce with his first wife, and to marry with one of Frey girls. Could be that even if they already had children, in those first marriages, Walder still would have demanded from Robb, to divorce with his first wife, and marry with a Frey girl. He wanted a Frey child to inherit Winterfell. And what will be serial number of Robb's marriage with his Frey-wife, was irrelevant for Walder.

I can see this as possible. He was going to wedge himself in somehow sooner or later and it wouldn't have gone over well.  

It doesn't take much to offend Walder. Sometimes I suspect he seeks reasons to be offended as he feels it gives him license to act out. He didn't ask for Jeyne to be set aside because the RW or something to that effect was what he really wanted anyhow. 

[The Fattest Leech]

1 hour ago, Megorova said:

There's also were those Stark sisters, that both married with their Stark uncles.

Come on, you're better than that. You know you should be looking at everything else that is also going on around this same time. Long and short, never do we hear of any Stark practicing incest other than this twisted case/s. We have the Stark lineage in the World book and online to be able to check.

A few things to keep in mind are...

First, Jonnel and Edric Stark were only half-uncles to Serena and Sansa (Manderly) Stark. I am not sure if or where that counts on the "abomination scale". If Eddard's parents being cousins once removed is enough of a genetic spread (two more bloodlines introduced), then maybe this is too, but I dunno for sure. Maybe that extra, new, blood is enough? But chances are it was as listed in number 2, next.

Second, the two nieces were of a Manderly mother, Jeyne Manderly. So the Manderly's at the time, who were trying to continue their move into the north, and still followed the seven, continue their campaign into the northern bloodlines. Remember, girls do not get to chose their husbands on the norm. This was a strategic double marriage back into House Stark, with one of the girls already being a widow (so second cattle marriage for her). This could be history repeating as we see current day Wyman Manderly trying to get a hold of Rickon Stark, and there is certainly speculation as to the "real" reasons why.

Third, and maybe most important, none of the half-uncle+niece marriages went back into the main branch of House Stark. It was not prevalent in House Stark at all by the records we have. If it was important, or if it was common, we would have seen it. Instead we are repeatedly told the opposite by more than one source. The Sansa-Jonnel Stark marriage had zero children; so bloodline ended. And the Serena-Edric marriage went on to create/continue House Umber and House Cerwyn. From that point on I cannot find any Umber or Cerwyn being bred back in to the Starks. Beron Stark and Lorra Royce continued House Stark proper.

And fourth, this one fits what George was talking about for why Tywin married his own first cousin- to gain and maintain power. When Rickon Stark (husband to Jeyne Manderly and heir to Cregan Stark) died in Dorne, that left a power and inheritance gap. Rickon only had two daughters, and we know from George that Winterfell has never had a female in charge for whatever reason. So, it could have been a power grab from the half-uncles, or it could have been an exception to keep a Stark always in Winterfell. Anyway, it gets worse because that plan backfires because the inheritance again gets screwed up because the "right" males die at the wrong time anyway (old gods judgement?). So, the incest lines end completely, either by death in the line, or it never being practiced again. The Stark inheritance went to Jonnel and Edric's younger brother Brandon.

And we are told very clearly many times that incest is a Targaryen privilege. Ran even confirmed this in the Sons of the Dragon thread. I will see if I can find that link Found It. Any time we see it happen, or even suggested, in the story, it is meant as a bad omen. You have to include it to show how "bad" it is. The Targs practiced it as a means of control of their woman and their dragons. It is a type of slavery. (and this also makes you question whether there really is something to the female Targs being the required hatching element to dragons). The Targaryens thought themselves above gods and men, and therefore could do as they pleased (or so they thought).

In ALL of GRRM's work that do feature an idea or act of incest, it is ALWAYS bad. To be clear, not all of his work features incest, but those that do, it is always a negative and is shunned or responsible for downfalls and lust, pride, purity, etc. It literally brings down dynasty's and entire cultures. In several of his stories, the civilizations out right rejected incest even though it mean their clan will die. We are told in ASOAIF that you don't steal from clan kin, same exact idea that GRRM puts in to the other stories. The only time some of these clans can have a rebound is when they realize that "new blood" is needed and incest is ended. Every time.

And an author writes what he knows, and GRRM is in no way shape or form promoting or uplifting incest. As a matter of fact, he speaks against it many times, in many different ways. Just two examples below.

Here at the 47 minute mark where he talks about the idea of purity needs to go away because, as he says, we should all be "mutts" and "mongrels". http://dndjourneyofthefifthedition.podbean.com/e/tuscon-43-an-hour-with-george-r-r-martin/

George does not condone incest, as he says in the 1:45 mark.

And this is how incest is described in the books (below), and we never hear of another culture anywhere practicing it. It caused a riff between not just the Faith and the Targgaryens, but also the smallfolk and the Targs when they arrived, and that riff lasted:

The tradition amongst the Targaryens had always been to marry kin to kin. Wedding brother to sister was thought to be ideal. Failing that, a girl might wed an uncle, a cousin, or a nephew; a boy, a cousin, aunt, or niece. This practice went back to Old Valyria, where it was common amongst many of the ancient families, particularly those who bred and rode dragons. "The blood of the dragon must remain pure," the wisdom went. Some of the sorcerer princes also took more than one wife when it pleased them, though this was less common than incestuous marriage. In Valryia before the Doom, wise men wrote, a thousand gods were honored, but none were feared, so few dared to speak against these customs.

This was not true in Westeros, where the power of the Faith went unquestioned. Incest was denounced as vile sin, whether between father and daughter, mother and son, or brother and sister, and the fruits of such unions were considered abominations in the sight of gods and men. With hindsight, it can be seen that conflict between the Faith and House Targaryen was inevitable.

[Kandrax]

13 hours ago, Megorova said:

There's also were those Stark sisters, that both married with their Stark uncles.

Of course not.

That's because usually there's a whole generation between uncle and niece, or aunt and nephew, 15-30 years age gap. It's rarely like in case with Jon and Dany, where their age difference is only 1 year, or even less.

On topic - I think it wouldn't have been enough if they were only married. Because someone like Walder (how many times was he married?), could have demanded from Robb to divorce with his first wife, and to marry with one of Frey girls. Could be that even if they already had children, in those first marriages, Walder still would have demanded from Robb, to divorce with his first wife, and marry with a Frey girl. He wanted a Frey child to inherit Winterfell. And what will be serial number of Robb's marriage with his Frey-wife, was irrelevant for Walder.

Did he want a Frey child to inherit Winterfell or just one of his daughter be married into Great House?

Now, if Robb's wife is Alys Karstark that would cause lot problems.

 

[Kandrax]

12 hours ago, Lollygag said:

I can see this as possible. He was going to wedge himself in somehow sooner or later and it wouldn't have gone over well.  

It doesn't take much to offend Walder. Sometimes I suspect he seeks reasons to be offended as he feels it gives him license to act out. He didn't ask for Jeyne to be set aside because the RW or something to that effect was what he really wanted anyhow. 

Yes, he would still betray Robb, but RW was motivated by his desire to diswash dishonour done to him.

[Yet Another ASOIAF Fan]

On 2/24/2018 at 6:07 PM, Kandrax said:

No, i am suggesting that they have wives.

Good, having wives will better hide Robb and Edmure's torrid and incestuous romance.

[PrinceHenryris]

Back to the original topic.

Robb might have found himself in big trouble if he had been married/betrothed.  Remember what happened to Lucerys when he went to Storm's End and admitted to Borros Baratheon that he was already betrothed.  Does anyone think that Walder Frey wouldn't do something similar if Robb Were already betrothed?

A marriage pact with the heir to Winterfell was an advancement opportunity for House Frey.  If that bargaining chip wasn't on the table, Walder probably would have looked for ways he could ingratiate himself with Tywin Lannister.  At a minimum, he could have refused Robb's crossing.  Depending on other factors, he could have destroyed the bulk of Robb's army.

So, no, Robb being married/betrothed would not have saved him.

[Kandrax]

It is still posible for Robb to offend House Frey without breaking marriage. For example, if he refuse to execute Tion Frey's killer, his father-in-law, Rickard Karstark.

[Varysblackfyre321]

12 hours ago, PrinceHenryris said:

Back to the original topic.

Robb might have found himself in big trouble if he had been married/betrothed.  Remember what happened to Lucerys when he went to Storm's End and admitted to Borros Baratheon that he was already betrothed.  Does anyone think that Walder Frey wouldn't do something similar if Robb Were already betrothed?

A marriage pact with the heir to Winterfell was an advancement opportunity for House Frey.  If that bargaining chip wasn't on the table, Walder probably would have looked for ways he could ingratiate himself with Tywin Lannister.  At a minimum, he could have refused Robb's crossing.  Depending on other factors, he could have destroyed the bulk of Robb's army.

So, no, Robb being married/betrothed would not have saved him.

All Walder would really need to do is refuse Robb to destroy the boy- he literally could do nothing in response that wouldn't be a pure exercise in futility. As much as Robb and his men would  rather destroy the freys' home and make them suffer for refusing Rob's demands, they recognized they couldn't with the rescources and time they had. They'd simply be destroying themselves ultimately. I don't think sending out there own men to combat Robb's forces were in Walder's interests however. 

[Light a wight tonight]

On 2/23/2018 at 3:10 PM, Megorova said:

It isn't considered as incest by their standarts. Princess Rhaenyra married with her uncle Daeron. Calla Blackfyre married with her uncle Bittersteel. Rohanna Webber was supposed to marry with her uncle, but instead married with Osgrey, and after him with Gerold Lannister. Thus marriages between uncles and nieces are allowed by the Faith of Seven. So if gay marriages were also accepted in Westeros, then there would be no reason, why can't marry uncle and nephew.

This is only among Targaryens and is barely tolerated by the Faith because they are obliged to. Clearly stated in the text.

[LindsayLohan]

Don't think Walder Frey wasn't very aware that the heir to the Iron Islands was in Robb's company.  Roslin would have found herself wed to a different lord, and Walder would have wanted one of his youngest (Robb remarked upon them when apologizing before his death) engaged to a yet-unborn Stark prince, likely the crown prince.  As for Theon, he was always a wild card, and Robb was fool to let him go.  If I put myself in Walder's shoes I demand:

1. Robb's firstborn son for one of my great-granddaughters
2. Arya for one of my direct heirs, to inherit the Twins
3. Theon for Roslin
4. If Edmure has any children, another marriage

Walder would put an heir on the throne in Winterfell, a Stark princess in his own home (hello, best hostage ever), one of his grand-daughters alongside the heir to the Seastone chair, and another in Riverrun.  He would bond Houses Stark, Tully, Frey, and Greyjoy in a single swoop, with the Lord Paramount of the Vale first cousin to the new King of the North and Riverlands.

That's a thorough an alliance as the Stark/Tully/Baratheon/Arryn group that overthrew the IT.

[Kandrax]

9 hours ago, LindsayLohan said:

• Robb's firstborn son for one of my great-granddaughters
• Arya for one of my direct heirs, to inherit the Twins
• Theon for Roslin
• If Edmure has any children, another marriage

I agree with first, third and last point, however second is problematic. Closest unmaried Frey in line of succession is Black Walder, but then you will need disinherit everyone ahead of him, unless Stevron takes her as his fourth wife.