Narrative Wise, Did Robb Need to be a King?

[Jon Fossoway]

7 hours ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

He was happy to savage one of them with a wolf when he was waving a weapon in the air.

 

Not sure what does that have to do with Robb's coronation, but picture the situation: Jon huge beast of man Umber, nearing insubordination, draws a weapon (which must be that nasty greatsword of his) in the face of his liege lord. Robb, either by warg instinct or by his direwolf criteria, gets him back in line with a show of force, which the Umbers apparently appreciate. Having the lot of the northern lords pledge to you in a confusing war council is kind of a different thing.

[Aegon1FanBoy]

Because the plot demanded it but Young King just won a great victory his bannermen are high and realized look Robert is gone and its ned that made us stay together for him the targs aren't in charge lets do this.

[cyberdirectorfreedom]

12 hours ago, Nowy Tends said:

At least he didn't rape him…

 

12 hours ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

GRRM didn't specifically say that didn't happen though, so I may write an entire theory based on the assumption that it did.

Heh.

But yeah, Robb definitely could've told them he didn't want to be crowned, and he wouldn't have been. I don't think Robb necessarily wanted to be King, though. He seemed to be lost, looking for direction, and this seemed to be better than the other ideas his bannermen were espousing, so he went for it. But he certainly wasn't under any obligation to accept, and his bannermen would've supported him, regardless. They are his bannermen, after all.

[Varysblackfyre321]

57 minutes ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

 

Heh.

But yeah, Robb definitely could've told them he didn't want to be crowned, and he wouldn't have been. I don't think Robb necessarily wanted to be King, though. He seemed to be lost, looking for direction, and this seemed to be better than the other ideas his bannermen were espousing, so he went for it. But he certainly wasn't under any obligation to accept, and his bannermen would've supported him, regardless. They are his bannermen, after all.

I don't know. Stervron's approach seemed the most reasonble. 

[Trigger Warning]

Stannis' middle child complex has penetrated to such a depth that we are now questioning the narrative itself as to why Stannis cannot get some support. My theory is that the highly concentrated levels of Stannis fandom has coalesced within the depths of the internet and gained consciousness. 

[cyberdirectorfreedom]

2 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

I don't know. Stervron's approach seemed the most reasonble. 

No arguments from me, should war be the only option. I (and I can scarcely believe I'm saying this) think that Catelyn had the right of it. Sue for peace. But, of course, Robb wouldn't make peace with those who killed his father, so in that case, yes, I completely agree that Stevron had the right of it. A cautious approach would've been much smarter. But, alas, fools like the Greatjon often confuse caution with cowardice.

I should've clarified better in my other post, however, that being crowned was better than the other options from Robb's perspective. I certainly don't agree.

[Bernie Mac]

3 hours ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

 

I don't think Robb necessarily wanted to be King, though.

I think he did, most nobles would have wanted to rule, a 16 year old Robb who resented the spoilt shit Joffrey (even before he killed his father) would have hated the fact that he had to serve Joffrey as King, it is human nature. Kings/Bosses/Leaders all complain about power when things are not going well, how they were forced into it yet all seem more than willing to take it when offered it, or to fight for it when someone else wants to take it away from them. 

Both Robb and Stannis wanted to be King, one may regret it, the other convince himself that he was the only option, but both had the choice and took it. 

edit; in fact that will be the distinction between the likes of Jon and Robb and Stannis, Jon willingly refused Winterfell when offered. He is probably one of the few people who would turn down such an opportunity.

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

47 minutes ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

No arguments from me, should war be the only option. I (and I can scarcely believe I'm saying this) think that Catelyn had the right of it. Sue for peace. But, of course, Robb wouldn't make peace with those who killed his father, so in that case, yes, I completely agree that Stevron had the right of it. A cautious approach would've been much smarter. But, alas, fools like the Greatjon often confuse caution with cowardice.

Stevron's approach would only have worked if Robb could have tolerated Joffery as king, which I don't think he could have. There was every likelihood, particularly if Robb no longer threatened them from the North, and therefore freed up Tywin's army, that the Lannisters would have come out on top.

Robb didn't necessarily have to crown himself, but he did have to fight against the Lannisters. Not only did they cut off his father's head, but they were simply too much of a threat. Joffery and Cersei would have taken any opportunity to stick it to the Starks in the future, whatever formal peace was agreed. 

[Bernie Mac]

16 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

Joffery and Cersei would have taken any opportunity to stick it to the Starks in the future, whatever formal peace was agreed. 

Cersei would not have, she was the one who, knowing the the Gold Cloaks were on her side, still gave Ned one more chance to back off and return home and she was the one willing for him to take the black. The Cersei from the first book is hugely different from the Cersei we see in AFFC (not really surprising given all she has been through by that point) but Cersei would not have tried to engage in a war with the Starks. 

12 year old Joffrey is another matter, but it would be Tywin running things for the next few years. 

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

4 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Cersei would not have, she was the one who, knowing the the Gold Cloaks were on her side, still gave Ned one more chance to back off and return home and she was the one willing for him to take the black.

In the short term she might have cut a deal, but in the long term my guess is she would have come after the Starks.

Certainly, after the beheading, you can understand why people didn't trust her, even if Joferry was behind it. As far as most people knew, it was simply the Lannisters who did it. They wouldn't have known Joffery went rogue.

[cyberdirectorfreedom]

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

Both Robb and Stannis wanted to be King, one may regret it, the other convince himself that he was the only option, but both had the choice and took it. 

Well, fair enough. He wanted it enough that he didn't turn it down, truly. But I don't think he would've pushed for it, if his bannermen didn't just crown him.

Although... maybe Robb is more cunning than I give him credit for, and he played the "I don't think any of these people should be our King" card long enough for his bannermen to get fed up and just crown him. If it was his idea, they might not have gone for it... But then he wouldn't have married the Westerling girl and made a right mess of things, would he? Nevermind.

1 hour ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

Stevron's approach would only have worked if Robb could have tolerated Joffery as king, which I don't think he could have. There was every likelihood, particularly if Robb no longer threatened them from the North, and therefore freed up Tywin's army, that the Lannisters would have come out on top.

True. I'd place my bets on the Lannisters winning that war, certainly. But, should they have done so, it is then that Robb could attack, from a significantly strengthened position (well, his opponent would be weakened). That's what Ser Stevron was pushing towards. Wait, and then decide to attack or kneel.

1 hour ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

Robb didn't necessarily have to crown himself, but he did have to fight against the Lannisters. Not only did they cut off his father's head, but they were simply too much of a threat. Joffery and Cersei would have taken any opportunity to stick it to the Starks in the future, whatever formal peace was agreed. 

Not so true. Joffrey could be controlled, except in such cases as Ned's execution, and that's only because it happened immediately. War is a different beast altogether. Everyone knows that attacking the North is very, very difficult. If Joffrey could be convinced that the costs outweigh the benefits, I don't think he'd try anything. And that's only after years of having a regent. Joffy's memory wouldn't last that long, I think. Cersei certainly wouldn't have done anything; she doesn't care about the North at all. Opportunities to stick it to the Starks would be hard to find. Ones with a worthwhile cost, at least.

51 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

Certainly, after the beheading, you can understand why people didn't trust her, even if Joferry was behind it. As far as most people knew, it was simply the Lannisters who did it. They wouldn't have known Joffery went rogue.

You're right. Quite frankly, everyone who wasn't there probably thought it was just an execution. I doubt people knew what was supposed to happen, so they'd have just thought it happened the way it was planned; therefore, Cersei would have been in at least tacit approval. Those who were there would've heard Joffrey say that Cersei wanted Ned to take the Black, but other than those people, none could truly know.

Still... a nobles word is their bond. If people didn't think Ned was ever going to take the Black, then nobody would think that Cersei broke her word. There'd be no reason to think that peace couldn't work, that Cersei couldn't be trusted.

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

1 minute ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

True. I'd place my bets on the Lannisters winning that war, certainly. But, should they have done so, it is then that Robb could attack, from a significantly strengthened position (well, his opponent would be weakened). That's what Ser Stevron was pushing towards. Wait, and then decide to attack or kneel.

That would have been mad. There's no point waiting and allowing the Lannisters to defeat their enemies one by one. 

3 minutes ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

Joffrey could be controlled, except in such cases as Ned's execution, and that's only because it happened immediately.

Nah, he was virtually impossible to control. And "such cases" as Ned's execution are pretty crucial. And Joffery was going to be king in his own right in three years.

4 minutes ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

Everyone knows that attacking the North is very, very difficult.

Joffery's an idiot though. And they didn't necessarily have to go to open war with the North to cause them harm.

5 minutes ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

If Joffrey could be convinced that the costs outweigh the benefits, I don't think he'd try anything.

Joffery's an idiot though.

6 minutes ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

Joffy's memory wouldn't last that long, I think.

He's not famous for letting things slide.

7 minutes ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

There'd be no reason to think that peace couldn't work, that Cersei couldn't be trusted.

Few people seem to trust the Lannisters before they cut Ned's head off. 

[cyberdirectorfreedom]

6 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

That would have been mad. There's no point waiting and allowing the Lannisters to defeat their enemies one by one. 

They wouldn't come through the war unscathed. To let your opponents batter themselves on each other is a very sound plan.

7 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

Nah, he was virtually impossible to control. And "such cases" as Ned's execution are pretty crucial. And Joffery was going to be king in his own right in three years.

Completely agree with the bolded, of course. But while Joffrey may be impetuous, I think something that takes time to plan, while everyone else involved is saying it's a mistake, might give Joffrey pause. As to being almost impossible to control, remember that time that Tywin sent him to bed? He can be controlled.

9 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

Joffery's an idiot though. And they didn't necessarily have to go to open war with the North to cause them harm.

True. On both counts. But still, there's little they could really do. Cut trade? That doesn't only hurt the North. Stop allowing people to take the Black, in an effort to weaken the borders to the North? People who commit almost any crime will become the deranged lunatics that Night's Watch deserters are seen as. If the choice for a rapist becomes "castration or", well, that's not much of a choice. "Castration of the Watch" is much better, for everyone.

I don't really see a way to hurt the North that much. Nothing worth the effort, at least.

14 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

He's not famous for letting things slide.

He's also only 12. Is he, at 15, going to have held on to a grudge that is now 1/5 as old as he is? Children forget things, and it'd be in everyone's interest to have Joffrey forget about the North.

15 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

Few people seem to trust the Lannisters before they cut Ned's head off. 

Most of those who distrust the Lannisters are Starks, though. People are willing to deal with the Lannisters, in general, I think.

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

17 minutes ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

Most of those who distrust the Lannisters are Starks, though. People are willing to deal with the Lannisters, in general, I think.

The River Lords seem to intensely dislike them as well, and any who were loyal to the Targaryens would remember Elia. 

[Bernie Mac]

48 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

 

Few people seem to trust the Lannisters before they cut Ned's head off. 

You mean are central POV in the first book? Ned had a problem with the Lannisters, Cat did not, she was OK with their visit and once told by her sister that they murdered her brother-in-law did she, and Robb, start to hate them.

 

13 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

The River Lords seem to intensely dislike them as well, and any who were loyal to the Targaryens would remember Elia. 

Yes, for obvious reason, they are at war with them. The Darry's we see at the start of the series had more of a problem with Robert than they did his wife and brother-in-law while Cat had to invoke her father's name to get some of the Riverland people to help her imprison Tyrion. 

 

I think you may be confusing Ned's ( or even the Martells) intense dislike for the Lannisters as the feeling of the average person in Westeros. 

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

22 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

I think you may be confusing Ned's ( or even the Martells) intense dislike for the Lannisters as the feeling of the average person in Westeros. 

No not really. It's clear that Tywin is feared but not liked. Jaime is called Kingslayer by everyone behind his back. Tyrion is unfairly despised.

Both younger Baratheon brothers dislike the Lannisters, the people of Kings Landing remember the Sack. I would imagine that the Starks' distrust of the Lannisters is shared by many who fought in the rebellion, while they stayed aloof. 

24 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Ned had a problem with the Lannisters, Cat did not, she was OK with their visit and once told by her sister that they murdered her brother-in-law did she, and Robb, start to hate them.

I think Cat was just advising Ned to be cautious and be nice to them, rather than expressing a liking for them, or even indifference. 

To be fair, Robb hated Joffery pretty much straight away, but that's just good judgement. I would imagine he picked up a dislike of them from his father, but that's not certain.

[cyberdirectorfreedom]

1 hour ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

The River Lords seem to intensely dislike them as well, and any who were loyal to the Targaryens would remember Elia. 

Well, there's a difference between disliking someone and not trusting them to honour a peace treaty. Or to honour any agreement. Most people seem to be perfectly willing to strike a deal with the Lannisters.

44 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

No not really. It's clear that Tywin is feared but not liked. Jaime is called Kingslayer by everyone behind his back. Tyrion is unfairly despised.

Of the three, Jaime is the only one that people seem to mistrust, due to his whole oathbreaking thing. I'm certain people take Tywin and Tyrion at their word.

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

5 hours ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

Well, there's a difference between disliking someone and not trusting them to honour a peace treaty. Or to honour any agreement. Most people seem to be perfectly willing to strike a deal with the Lannisters.

Perhaps, but they had a reputation for both brutality and treachery. Not just Jaime, Tywin's ruse to get Aerys to open the gates would probably have been viewed as dastardly. His waiting to see who came out on top in the rebellion before joining in, similarly.

5 hours ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

Of the three, Jaime is the only one that people seem to mistrust, due to his whole oathbreaking thing. I'm certain people take Tywin and Tyrion at their word.

Tyrion is distrusted out of bigotry. People who get to know him would, as even Catelyn did with regards to the exchange between Jaime and Sansa/Arya.

I don't know about Tywin. He was probably viewed as someone you could do business with, but it would be an utter fool who trusted him completely. 

[Sourjapes]

12 hours ago, Trigger Warning said:

Stannis' middle child complex has penetrated to such a depth that we are now questioning the narrative itself as to why Stannis cannot get some support. My theory is that the highly concentrated levels of Stannis fandom has coalesced within the depths of the internet and gained consciousness. 

Well my whole point is that even if Stannis had support it would be pointless.

[Bernie Mac]

12 hours ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

No not really.

Of course you are. Your original point was about trust, not about who was more popular. Trust has nothing to do with popularity, he is as trustworthy as most of his peers his 20 years of Hand is a point of reference for most people. 

 

12 hours ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

 

It's clear that Tywin is feared but not liked.

That is true, liked in the West but not particularly out of it. Isn't that true of most Lords though? Is Doran particularly liked in the other realms? Balon? Mace? Hoster? Ned, like Tywin, though for different reasons, is respected throughout the realm but is he liked outside of the North and Vale?

Few Lords are liked in other lands, it is one of the key positives about Robert and Renly, how popular they both are

12 hours ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

Jaime is called Kingslayer by everyone behind his back.

Clearly not everyone but the same is also true about Robert, he complains about being labelled a usurper behind his back. 

12 hours ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

Tyrion is unfairly despised.

Right, for his deformity and lifestyle not because he is a Lannister. Had Tyrion been an Arryn and acted the same way he would still be despised. 

12 hours ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

Both younger Baratheon brothers dislike the Lannisters, 

They dislike Cersei, Renly because he is convinced she will end him (either his life or his power and influence) while Stannis thinks she has cuckolded the King. 

It should also be pointed out that to the outside world Cersei is more a part of the royal family than she is a Lannister just like Cat is more of a Stark, Olenna more of a Tyrell, Lysa more of an Arryn...

12 hours ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

I would imagine that the Starks' distrust of the Lannisters is shared by many who fought in the rebellion, while they stayed aloof. 

That is not why Ned dislikes them. Ned is an incredibly honourable person (even if some of his actions have contradicted this) and his distaste with Tywin and Jaime is not them staying out of the war, it is Jaime killing the man he was sworn to protect and Tywin's using duplicitous means to enter the citty and then order the murders of royal children. 

Much of the realm is in the dark about Tywin's role in these murders while Ned's honour is not the norm. 

12 hours ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

I think Cat was just advising Ned to be cautious and be nice to them, rather than expressing a liking for them, or even indifference. 

At no point did I claim she liked them, I was responding to your claim that everyone disliked them, which is not the case as we see from Cat. There is a middle ground between like and dislike. Her opinion on the Lannisters does not become negative till Lysa's accusation. 

12 hours ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

To be fair, Robb hated Joffery pretty much straight away, but that's just good judgement. I would imagine he picked up a dislike of them from his father, but that's not certain.

Joffrey is not a Lannister, he's thought of as a Barathon (and later by some as a Waters). Robb's dislike of Joffrey Baratheon has nothing to do with who his grandfather is.