Which region will suffer most from Winter?

[Dorian Martell's son]

8 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Coldhands seems to be a wight who broke free of the control of the Others - possibly the wightified body of a skinchanger who retook his body after it was taken over by the Others. Something like that is implied by Leaf. Else Coldhands should be able to enter the cave - but he can't, presumably because the magic which resurrected him - but is no longer controlling him - is the magic of the Others.

Ah, I figured the ward blocked the Undead no matter where they came from. The reinhabiting of a dead body by a skinchanger is interesting 

8 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Because the spell loses its power gradually, over a longer period of time?

It could lose power, it could be distance from the north or it could just be rotting flesh

8 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

As per your own idea Craster and Mormont should have gotten blue eyes immediately after their deaths - which they did not. When Sam and Gilly fled nobody was burning any corpses yet a lot of corpses were lying there.

 Ok, Waymar rose hours after he was killed  

8 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Could be that the ravens helped with that. But then - the Others are known to wear camouflage armor. Would ravens see that they are out there, hunting for Bran, in the middle of the night? I'd not count on that. It is more likely they had no clue about Bloodraven's connection to Bran and the Reeds.

Sorry, it isn't that the others are out looking for Bran, but there are wights wandering around beyond the wall, and the ravens give warnings and updates to coldhands so he can ride off and handle it. 

8 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Not sure if the Others and Children qualify as 'ancient enemies'. Could be - or not. I'm inclined to believe that their magic is not what's saving them. It seems more likely to me that they don't really care all that much about the Children as long as they don't interfere with their plans.

The others are vulnerable to dragonglass, the only weapon the CTOF use and the CTOF have magic that keeps them at bay. The last hero had to find the children to learn how to fight the others. sounds like and ancient enemy to me.

8 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Considering that Others seem to have been there at the Fist I don't think that's true. Sure, the Others don't have to be there to make a wight stumble around, killing everything it can grasp, but it seems they need to be around to use them as soldiers in a concentrated attack against the humans - as they did at the Fist. 

That makes sense. 

8 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Could be. But then - originally there was only the Black Gate beneath the Nightfort. At the Nightfort the Watch had a stair in the ice up to the Wall, and a gate beneath the castle to cross in the lands beyond the Wall. That was the place to cross it, not some crudely cut tunnels through the Wall. Said tunnels might prove to be a rather severe problem once the Others finally send thousands of wights to hang out north of the Wall. And that should happen in the near future.

The ward at the cave seems to be different. After all, there is no Wall there, no? If the ward in the Wall was as powerful as that one then there would be no need for a Wall. More importantly, there are Children of the Forest and a greenseer in that cave, in addition to it being beneath a vast grove of weirwoods. That is a very powerful place. The Wall is also powerful, but there are no greenseers there, nor Children of the Forest or integrated weirwood groves.

I think the key/focal point of the spell in the Wall rests in the Black Gate. That's where the ultimate attack will come, and that's where the Others will break the spell. The earthquake will then just remove the physical barrier in their way - and kill thousands of the morons still protecting and manning it - but they might find way through, above, and around it long before, anyway.

The whole wall being warded would explain why the wights needed to be dragged through the wall. There has to be a reason why the others can't just use their steel cutting swords to cut through a gate and walk under the wall. That would be wards 

[Lord Varys]

15 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Ah, I figured the ward blocked the Undead no matter where they came from. The reinhabiting of a dead body by a skinchanger is interesting

I don't think it is just undead they ward against. If that was the case the Others would have long taken the place, paying the Children a visit themselves. It must be warded against the Others and their magic (and perhaps also against undead, if that works).

15 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

It could lose power, it could be distance from the north or it could just be rotting flesh.

If it was just rotting flesh then - again: Why don't rot the wights away to nothing?

15 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

 Ok, Waymar rose hours after he was killed.

He rose when Will came down, most likely because he waited for him. It may have been a 'conscious' decision on his part - and the Others controlling him - to lure the poor fool down so they can kill rather than have the wight climb the tree.

15 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Sorry, it isn't that the others are out looking for Bran, but there are wights wandering around beyond the wall, and the ravens give warnings and updates to coldhands so he can ride off and handle it. 

Yes, the ravens might be of some use tracking wights in daylight. Whether the Others know about Bran we don't know as of yet. If they do, they botched the job. Which makes it pretty likely they do not know about him, in fact.

15 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

The others are vulnerable to dragonglass, the only weapon the CTOF use and the CTOF have magic that keeps them at bay. The last hero had to find the children to learn how to fight the others. sounds like and ancient enemy to me.

I can offer you a gun and tell you how to use it without caring about the people/creatures you are going to kill with it. The Children chose to help the Last Hero, apparently, and they also helped with the Wall and the NW later on, but that doesn't mean they and the Others were ever enemies in a real sense. There is no indication that an Other ever killed a Child, or turned one into a wight.

15 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

The whole wall being warded would explain why the wights needed to be dragged through the wall. There has to be a reason why the others can't just use their steel cutting swords to cut through a gate and walk under the wall. That would be wards 

They might be able to do that - but they might be also be just have enough patience to play a very long game. They do not only turn humans against each other via the wights (and by using what Craster has to offer) they also lure them out, weaken them, and make them fight each other.

The Others made Mance king, in a sense. They allowed him to unite the wildlings, they allowed them to go south and fight the Watch, etc.

The point of planted wights was to draw out the Watch and butcher them out in the forest where they were helpless. The point of Hardhome right now is to draw them out again, and butcher them in the middle of nowhere, etc.

A couple of Others cutting through the gates won't have the same effect. Not to mention them risking being gutted by some dragonglass daggers/weapons.

Also keep in mind it was summer back then. The Others don't want to make their great move in summer, they prepare for winter. Now that winter has come they might very well make short work of those gates. Or not. I actually do expect an attack of the Others on the Wall before it is going to fall. The pages have to be filled somehow. And luring the morons in, making them believe they have chance to defend it - and then blowing the Horn of Winter is what I expect them to do. It is the smart thing.

If the magic is in the ice then a lack of ice might result in a lack of magic.

[Walda]

On 4/6/2018 at 6:02 PM, Lord Varys said:

In fact, the women's expectation that the Others would come to avenge Craster, their 'father', implies that they may have had motivation to take care of the mutineers. That they did not might imply they were too occupied with Mance's army marching south at that point.

I don't think the text really supports that reading.

Quote

Gilly was crying. “Me and the babe. Please. I’ll be your wife, like I was Craster’s. Please, ser crow. He’s a boy, just like Nella said he’d be. If you don’t take him, they will.”
“They?” said Sam, and the raven cocked its black head and echoed, “They. They. They.”
“The boy’s brothers,” said the old woman on the left. “Craster’s sons. The white cold’s rising out there, crow. I can feel it in my bones. These poor old bones don’t lie. They’ll be here soon, the sons.”

(ASoS, Ch.33 Samwell II)

I think this shows the women don't expect the Others would come to avenge Craster, they expect the Others will come because the white cold is rising and (Nella? - 'old woman on the right') can feel it in her bones. 

They say Sam had best be off before the mutineers get back from the cellar and the loft (which implies they forsee the mutineers coming - for Sam), and they want him to take Gilly and her baby because they believe the Others, who they know as 'Craster's sons', are coming for the baby.

Sam and Gilly took the baby from Craster's Keep to the abandoned village like Whitetree, where they were besieged by wights, which (if the White Walkers have to be around for the wights to rise and act)  might indicate the White Walkers didn't bother with Craster's after the child left. Gilly at least believes the wights could have tracked the child by scent:

Quote

“He’s come for the babe,” Gilly wept. “He smells him. A babe fresh-born stinks o’ life. He’s come for the life.”

Small Paul, Lark the Sisterman, Softfoot, Ryles, Hake, and Chett were named wights at the abandoned village like Whitetree when Coldhands met Sam and Gilly - wighted escapees from the Fist of the First men. There were three times their number of wildling wights there, too.

On 4/6/2018 at 7:29 AM, Lord Varys said:

after the butchery at Craster's none of the corpses there did rise, despite the fact that the turncloaks there had quite a few days of fun before Coldhands took care of the thing.

Here, I'm confused. Where did you get that Coldhands had anything to do with the betrayers at Craster's keep? How do you know if the corpses there rose or not?

BranSummer comes across Varyamyr's wolves feasting on some corpses that used to be men of the Night's Watch, corpses that had clearly been attacked by ravens, one that might have been dragged through a bush by wolves, one might have been decapitated by a not too sharp blade.

But of these there are only four or five ("Alive, they had been as many as the fingers on a man’s paw"ADwD, Ch.04 Bran I )

Nine named betrayers remained at Craster's Keep: Dirk, Clubfoot Karl, Ollo Lophand, Orphan Oss, Muttering Bill, Mawney, Alan of Rosby, Garth of Greenaway, Grubbs. There are others who we know were at Craster's keep barely alive, or dead but unburnt when Sam left: Ser Byam Flint, Rolley of Sisterton, Fornio, Ronnel Harclay, Garth of Oldtown, Jeor Mormont. 

There might be some named characters with them whose fate we don't know of since the fist of first men:  Aethan, Jarmen Buckwell, Ser Maladore Locke, Sawwood, Tumberjon. And there definitely are some unnamed brothers still at Crasters: "Forty-four had come straggling into Craster’s out of the storm, out of the sixty-odd who’d cut their way free of the Fist, but three of those had died of their wounds, and Bannen would soon make four." (ASoS, Ch.33 Samwell II) and "Noye said a dozen made it back"(ASoS, Ch.48 Jon VI) of the fifty-ish (ASoS, Ch.18 Samwell I) or sixty-ish (ASoS, Ch.33 Samwell II) that fled the Fist of First Men.

That means there are between eight and twelve unnamed brothers that remained at Craster's Keep, in addition to the named ones, not counting stragglers from the Fist that might come later. (Eight would be assuming all the named characters, including people like Ser Malladore and Jarmen Buckwell were at Craster's keep - although those two in particular are unlikely to have been, as they were officers with significant roles, unlikely to be in the huddled masses outside the keep, or unconsulted by Mormont).

If there is any evidence that Coldhands was ever anywhere near them, I've completely missed it. 

The five that Bran/Summer and Varamyr's wolf pack feast on do not seem to be wights at all - we see 

Quote

Steam rising from an open belly

Quote

Blood flowed thick and sluggish from a slash across his throat.

(ADwD, Ch.04 Bran I)

The wights are cold, often covered in a mask of frost, like Thistle. They don't smell like meat, like prey, like men.( ADwD, Prologue) Their blood does not flow. As Sam points out when he sees Jafer Flowers “

Quote

A fresh kill … the blood would still flow, my lords. Later … later it would be clotted, like a … a jelly, thick and … and …” He looked as though he was going to be sick. “This man … look at the wrist, it’s all … crusty … dry … like …”
Jon saw at once what Sam meant. He could see the torn veins in the dead man’s wrist, iron worms in the pale flesh. His blood was a black dust

(AGoT, Ch.52 Jon VII)

The steaming body and the flowing blood, and the scents Summer smells are not at all wight-like. The beards crusted with ice and frozen snot indicates they had been breathing recently, too. Although who knows how long this favourite artifact of GRRM's might remain after they stopped breathing - I can't recall him mentioning frozen beard-snot on a wight, but it wouldn't surprise me if they retained it as long as they stayed cold enough.

Looking thought the unaccounted for and unwighted Black Brothers: Apart from the stragglers from the Fist of First men (between a dozen and a score of them), there are the four remaining members of Benjen's ranging and the six rangers Jon sent out that have not yet returned: Ser Alliser, Dywen, Kedge Whiteye, and three unnamed. And there is Stonesnake.

The largest corpse was "a faceless thing who clutched black iron in one hand. His other hand was missing, severed at the wrist, the stump bound up in leather."(ADwD, Ch.04 BranI)

This could indicate a man who, like Ollo, lost a hand for stealing before coming to the wall, or like Qhorin, lost his hand afterwards, in some action at the wall. But I think the leather-bound stump indicates it was a more recent injury, self inflicted, to prevent frostbite from spreading. The leather might have been a torniquet before, as well as a bandage after. We know Jafer Flowers was nearly decapitated by an axe wound to his neck, when his wighted corpse was found, and Othor's wighted corpse was found without the axe he usually carried.  For this, and for their number, I'm inclined to suspect they are Benjen's men. But probably not Benjen - Bran might have recognised his uncle, or some of his uncle's clothing.

Anyway, the main point of this post is to ask: what makes you think Coldhands has done anything to the mutineers at Craster's Keep @Lord Varys?   

[Dorian Martell's son]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

I don't think it is just undead they ward against. If that was the case the Others would have long taken the place, paying the Children a visit themselves. It must be warded against the Others and their magic (and perhaps also against undead, if that works).

I was just referring to coldhands and wights 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

If it was just rotting flesh then - again: Why don't rot the wights away to nothing?

They probably do , but people only see them briefly, as the people die or end up burning the wights. Also, cold preserves. 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

He rose when Will came down, most likely because he waited for him. It may have been a 'conscious' decision on his part - and the Others controlling him - to lure the poor fool down so they can kill rather than have the wight climb the tree.

I don't think he rose just because will came down. I think that was for dramatic lit effect. 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Yes, the ravens might be of some use tracking wights in daylight. Whether the Others know about Bran we don't know as of yet. If they do, they botched the job. Which makes it pretty likely they do not know about him, in fact.

I agree they they do not know he is specifically traveling north, until they get to the cave of course. 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

I can offer you a gun and tell you how to use it without caring about the people/creatures you are going to kill with it. The Children chose to help the Last Hero, apparently, and they also helped with the Wall and the NW later on, but that doesn't mean they and the Others were ever enemies in a real sense. There is no indication that an Other ever killed a Child, or turned one into a wight.

True, but the others are nigh-invulnerable to human weapons, yet the tools the children possess are extremely effective. It seems to me that there was a balance at one point. The children could see them coming via weirnet and had weapons that worked. This was maintained until people came and cut down the weirwoods and killed the children in battle. 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

They might be able to do that - but they might be also be just have enough patience to play a very long game. They do not only turn humans against each other via the wights (and by using what Craster has to offer) they also lure them out, weaken them, and make them fight each other.

 I agree with all of this 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

The Others made Mance king, in a sense. They allowed him to unite the wildlings, they allowed them to go south and fight the Watch, etc.

Much like how G.W. Bush  made ISIS by accident. 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

The point of planted wights was to draw out the Watch and butcher them out in the forest where they were helpless. The point of Hardhome right now is to draw them out again, and butcher them in the middle of nowhere, etc.

Using wights to kill the LC was a very good play. 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

A couple of Others cutting through the gates won't have the same effect. Not to mention them risking being gutted by some dragonglass daggers/weapons.

They handily defeat every human they come across until the slayer kills ser puddles. That victory streak would have anyone marching. It is hte magic in the wall that keeps them north, for now. 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Also keep in mind it was summer back then. The Others don't want to make their great move in summer, they prepare for winter. Now that winter has come they might very well make short work of those gates. Or not. I actually do expect an attack of the Others on the Wall before it is going to fall. The pages have to be filled somehow. And luring the morons in, making them believe they have chance to defend it - and then blowing the Horn of Winter is what I expect them to do. It is the smart thing.

I do not see the horn of winter playing a role, but the wall must fall eventually

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

If the magic is in the ice then a lack of ice might result in a lack of magic.

That too 

[Lord Varys]

2 hours ago, Walda said:

Anyway, the main point of this post is to ask: what makes you think Coldhands has done anything to the mutineers at Craster's Keep @Lord Varys?   

Mainly because Coldhands talked about long pig. He killed them, he didn't just collect some carrion, he killed him - or saw to it that they died.

And, sure, the guy lacking a hand is indeed most likely Ollo - either killed by his buddies or at Coldhands behest.

Coldhands was - and still is, in a sense - a sworn brother of the Night's Watch. He took care of the turncloaks.

I don't see any reason to try to track down the mutineers. The missing guys may have left because Coldhands got there, they may have fled during the butchery, and they may have died cold and alone out in the woods like so many others. And if they rose again, with blue eyes and black hands, there is no reason to believe that they have been seen since. Some might even be still alive, but I'd not count on that.

Winter has come now. Soon everybody north of the Wall will have blue eyes.

As to the whole revenge thing:

I wasn't talking tongue-in-cheek there. I know the Others don't care about Craster. They come for the children, for whatever reason. Apparently they are interested in them, and usually show up to collect young male infants in time. Which means they are due to arrive right now. We are led to believe that there is a more important reason as to why Gilly and Sam have to leave quickly than just the mutineers.

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

They probably do , but people only see them briefly, as the people die or end up burning the wights. Also, cold preserves. 

See above. There is summer beyond the Wall. The Wall weeps. There is no preserving cold up there, at least not all the time. If temperatures alone could rot the wights then they would have rotted away in the long summers of Westeros.

1 hour ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

I don't think he rose just because will came down. I think that was for dramatic lit effect. 

Sure, but in the story I'm inclined to believe Waymar could have risen long before Will came down.

1 hour ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

I agree they they do not know he is specifically traveling north, until they get to the cave of course. 

Perhaps they still don't know all that much, unless they see what their wights see. Didn't they kill all the wights at the cave?

1 hour ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

True, but the others are nigh-invulnerable to human weapons, yet the tools the children possess are extremely effective. It seems to me that there was a balance at one point. The children could see them coming via weirnet and had weapons that worked. This was maintained until people came and cut down the weirwoods and killed the children in battle.

That supposes the Others were already a thing when the First Men warred against the Children. We have no reason to believe that.

1 hour ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Much like how G.W. Bush  made ISIS by accident. 

A strange comparison. Mance and his gang are fleeing from the Others, they do not put (irrational and ridiculous) in the hearts of the nation that rules the world.

1 hour ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Using wights to kill the LC was a very good play.

Oh, I think they care more about numbers than titles. The more corpses, the more wights. If there is some great leader among the corpses, fine, but I really don't think the Others care about who leads the remaining wights-to-be. They have no reason to do so. At least not yet.

1 hour ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

They handily defeat every human they come across until the slayer kills ser puddles. That victory streak would have anyone marching. It is hte magic in the wall that keeps them north, for now. 

Go back to the Prologue. The Other looks at Waymar's blade for a moment, checking whether it is dragonglass (or dragon steel/Valyrian steel). Once it is clear that it is not Waymar is dead.

The Others know what can kill them, and they presumably fear that the humans might know or rediscover this knowledge. One assumes they is a reason why they usually don't show their faces.

1 hour ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

I do not see the horn of winter playing a role, but the wall must fall eventually.

Oh, I'm pretty sure it will.

The giants in the earth want to be awakened.

[kissdbyfire]

12 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

But he is a wight, is he not? The only difference is that he is lacks the blue eyes - and they seem to be the quality that allow the Others to control the wights. Either there are magical means to break the hold of the Others over the wights - and allow them to regain their previous identity (or remnants thereof) or skinchangers can do the trick if you can return to your previous body in your second life - which most definitely possible if you start your second life by taking over the body of another skinchanger, which some people may have actually done.

Oh, I'm quite sure he is a wight. There are a few different types of wights about... Regarding the blue 'eyes'... In the prologue of AGoT, when we get a description of Waymar Royce post-wightification, we learn that his pupil was blue.

AGoT, Prologue 

Will rose. Ser Waymar Royce stood over him.

His fine clothes were a tatter, his face a ruin. A shard from his sword transfixed the blind white pupil of his left eye. 

The right eye was open. The pupil burned blue. It saw.

That's either a mistake or a clue. If it's the latter, then it's highly suggestive of some sort of mind control going on. Coldhands doesn't have the blue "pupils" and he is not a mindless zombie. He also talks and thinks, he is a sentient being. Your run-of-the-mill wights aren't. 

12 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Vice versa, the creature living Coldhands could also have been a skinchanger gaining a rather weird type of relative immortality starting his second life simply by taking over the body of a wight - and breaking the control of the Others in the process of it. But that doesn't seem to be the case with Coldhands if we can trust Leaf on the matter.

Possible. I think it's also possible that the wightification process didn't take because of something, some peculiarity in Coldhands. Being a skinchanger would be one option... 

12 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Yeah, that is a good idea as well. Although I'd say that the hacking, the distance between the Others and the hand, and the Wall between them should also have taken its toll on the thing. I mean, there is summer beyond the Wall, too. It is not as hot up there than in KL, of course, but it isn't freezing cold all the time, either.

Possibly a combo of factors? I think it's fairly likely that the physical distance from whatever the WWs/cold are/is doing and being on the south side of the Wall probably weakened the spell, and the heat did the rest: caused the dead tissue to rot away.

12 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

If the wights were affected all that much by (reasonably) hot temperatures, many should rot away in summer, never mind that they hide in shadowy places during daylight.

Have we ever heard of wights in the height of summer though? Not that I recall but I could be misremembering.

12 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

But, sure, keeping the hand over prolonged periods of time in direct sunlight - or in a very hot environment in the Red Keep - could definitely have destroyed what was left of the spell in the hand at that time.

 

12 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Come to think on the whole thing, Ghost and Summer both eat parts moving parts of wights. That implies they can be digested while they are still moving. There are ways to take them out that aren't fire or heat, but it is likely to take longer.

Yup. In one of Bran's chapters in ADwD, there's a scene where Bran is in Summer, and Summer digs up an arm. The arm is still moving, and when Summer starts cracking the bones to get to the marrow, the arm "remembers it was dead".

12 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

They are not magical creatures that can reassemble themselves unless they are taking out in a very special way.

 

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

On ‎4‎/‎3‎/‎2018 at 5:15 AM, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

They don't sow. They raid others and take their food. 

From where ? It is the beginning of The Long Night . Long night , streams ,lakes even the shallow parts of harbors freeze over .

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

On ‎4‎/‎3‎/‎2018 at 3:24 AM, Dead headofMaelysKinslayer said:

Euron invaded some parts of Arbor.

Winter is not a good time for sailing .

[Walda]

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Mainly because Coldhands talked about long pig

Quote?

All I can find is Meera  "The ranger found a sow.” (ADwD,Ch.04 Bran I). Meera is a hunter, with sufficient knowledge of carcasses to identify the meat as pork, and the beast it came from as female.

[Lord Varys]

9 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Oh, I'm quite sure he is a wight. There are a few different types of wights about... Regarding the blue 'eyes'... In the prologue of AGoT, when we get a description of Waymar Royce post-wightification, we learn that his pupil was blue.

AGoT, Prologue 

Will rose. Ser Waymar Royce stood over him.

His fine clothes were a tatter, his face a ruin. A shard from his sword transfixed the blind white pupil of his left eye. 

The right eye was open. The pupil burned blue. It saw.

That's either a mistake or a clue. If it's the latter, then it's highly suggestive of some sort of mind control going on. Coldhands doesn't have the blue "pupils" and he is not a mindless zombie. He also talks and thinks, he is a sentient being. Your run-of-the-mill wights aren't. 

Sure, the fact that Coldhands' eyes are not blue - and that he actually acts and seems to think like a 'normal' human being - is a good reason to believe that he is no longer like the wights. But the black hands imply he once was. He is the same type of creature they are. And that is further indicated by the fact that the ward effects him to - both in front of the cave as well as at the Black Gate. I mean, he clearly was a sworn brother of the Night's Watch, once, he knows the oath, and he knows what can open the gate, but he can no longer do it.

The magic in the Wall - and at the cave - does not (or cannot) differentiate between him and 'evil wights'. And that makes it very likely he is the same kind of creature as they are, on a fundamental level.

The whole pupil thing got me confused during the first read, actually, because it later seems that only the irises of the eyes turn blue. After all, if the black pupils of the corpses the gang finds in the weirwood grove had also turned blue they would have likely been more irritated and afraid than they were. This way it is just their eye color that apparently changed, not the fundamental characteristics of their eyes - there simply are no blue pupils in human beings, neither living nor dead.

9 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Possible. I think it's also possible that the wightification process didn't take because of something, some peculiarity in Coldhands. Being a skinchanger would be one option... 

Not sure if that makes much sense in light of Varamyr's Prologue. Is there any indication that being a skinchanger can protect his body from death from cold - and his corpse from subsequent magical enslavement?

A skinchanger can escape from death into another creature - animal or human - but there is no reason to believe that he can protect or control what happens to his body after his death. In that sense I find the idea that a skinchanger in another body can attack a wightified body (his own or somebody else's) the way Varamyr attacked Thistle the best explanation for the phenomenon of Coldhands.

Even more so if said person was supported by a greenseer or the Children in this quest. Perhaps they had to capture the wight beforehand, make it immobile, and go through a rather complicated magical ritual to break the control of the Others before the skinchanger to could possess the undead body? We'll have to wait and see.

9 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Possibly a combo of factors? I think it's fairly likely that the physical distance from whatever the WWs/cold are/is doing and being on the south side of the Wall probably weakened the spell, and the heat did the rest: caused the dead tissue to rot away.

Yeah. I think it is more likely that the eventual disappearance of the spell/magic was what triggered the rotting process (or greatly accelerated it). Whatever spell animates wights must also work as an 'anti-rotting agent' or else those creeps wouldn't be of any use.

9 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Have we ever heard of wights in the height of summer though? Not that I recall but I could be misremembering.

Waymar and Will both become wights in high summer. The wildlings-turned-wights Will sees in the villages became wights in high summer. It is just so unnaturally cold in the Prologue because the Others are always there. But it is high summer. And Waymar correctly points out that the wildlings could have died from the cold because it was simply not freezing cold in the last days. He points out that the Wall had been weeping when they had left.

I guess it wasn't that warm in the nights beyond the Wall, but since trees and plants are growing up there, we have to assume that it is usually not freezing cold in summer nights beyond the Wall, either. Apart from summer snow scenarios, of course.

8 hours ago, Walda said:

Quote?

All I can find is Meera  "The ranger found a sow.” (ADwD,Ch.04 Bran I). Meera is a hunter, with sufficient knowledge of carcasses to identify the meat as pork, and the beast it came from as female.

Oh, was @kissdbyfire not quoting there? I though she did. If not, then I'd say that Coldhands sudden disappearance, his decision to go hunting alone (when he cannot be all that good of a hunter considering how, well, fond living animals are of wights) as well as Summer's observation more than enough evidence to conclude that Coldhands dealt with the surviving mutineers at Craster's and later fed them to his people.

That's why Coldhands is Brandon Stark's monster. Killing people and cannibalizing them isn't seen as a positive thing in this world.

[Big P]

North

[kissdbyfire]

10 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Sure, the fact that Coldhands' eyes are not blue - and that he actually acts and seems to think like a 'normal' human being - is a good reason to believe that he is no longer like the wights. But the black hands imply he once was. He is the same type of creature they are. And that is further indicated by the fact that the ward effects him to - both in front of the cave as well as at the Black Gate. I mean, he clearly was a sworn brother of the Night's Watch, once, he knows the oath, and he knows what can open the gate, but he can no longer do it.

Yes and no, imo. 

Option 1: Coldhands was, at one point, a full wight (blue "eyes", doesn't talk, doesn't seem to have much sentience, vague memories from when still alive, etc) and "came back" from it somehow. 

Option 2: Coldhands should have been turned into a full wight, but wasn't. The process was hindered by something, incomplete somehow. 

We simply do not have enough information at this point to know which w/ certainty. There are a few things we actually know. You brought some up: he most definitely was a black brother. I think, like most maybe, that he cannot be anyone who's gone missing recently - like Will or Royce. The black hands, that simply show that he died. Coldhands himself explains this.

ADwD, Bran I 

Men of the Night's Watch. "You killed them. You and the ravens. Their faces were all torn, and their eyes were gone." Coldhands did not deny it. "They were your brothers. I saw. The wolves had ripped their clothes up, but I could still tell. Their cloaks were black. Like your hands." Coldhands said nothing. "Who are you? Why are your hands black?" 

The ranger studied his hands as if he had never noticed them before. "Once the heart has ceased to beat, a man's blood runs down into his extremities, where it thickens and congeals." His voice rattled in his throat, as thin and gaunt as he was. "His hands and feet swell up and turn as black as pudding. The rest of him becomes as white as milk."

I agree he is the same type of creature the wights are in the sense that both are undead. But ithat doesn't preclude option 2 above. 

I think it makes sense for the wards at the CotF cave and at the Wall to work similarly or even in the exact same manner. But, again, simply because they will keep out the unnatural undead walking corpses, regardless of said corpses being under someone/something's control or not. In other words, if you're a zombie you'll be kept "out" by the wards. 

, 

10 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The magic in the Wall - and at the cave - does not (or cannot) differentiate between him and 'evil wights'. And that makes it very likely he is the same kind of creature as they are, on a fundamental level.

I agree. But the way I see it, the fundamental level n which they are the same is, both are dead. IMO, biologically, there is nothing more unnatural than that.

10 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The whole pupil thing got me confused during the first read, actually, because it later seems that only the irises of the eyes turn blue. After all, if the black pupils of the corpses the gang finds in the weirwood grove had also turned blue they would have likely been more irritated and afraid than they were. This way it is just their eye color that apparently changed, not the fundamental characteristics of their eyes - there simply are no blue pupils in human beings, neither living nor dead.

Yeah, the thing is, pupils have no colour whatsoever because pupils are, basically, holes. Like the diaphragm of a camera. And I find it unlikely that the very deliberate Martin would deliberately use the word pupil without knowing exactly what it meant. But it is possible, I suppose. 

10 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Not sure if that makes much sense in light of Varamyr's Prologue. Is there any indication that being a skinchanger can protect his body from death from cold - and his corpse from subsequent magical enslavement?

I brought up skinchangers because you had before. When you suggested that he is a dead skinchanger who took a wight's body? 

10 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

A skinchanger can escape from death into another creature - animal or human - but there is no reason to believe that he can protect or control what happens to his body after his death. In that sense I find the idea that a skinchanger in another body can attack a wightified body (his own or somebody else's) the way Varamyr attacked Thistle the best explanation for the phenomenon of Coldhands.

Well, we will have to wait and see. I actually think it's more likely that something either prevented full wightification or he was a full wight but whatever spell is at play here was partially broken. 

10 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Even more so if said person was supported by a greenseer or the Children in this quest. Perhaps they had to capture the wight beforehand, make it immobile, and go through a rather complicated magical ritual to break the control of the Others before the skinchanger to could possess the undead body? We'll have to wait and see.

Possible. I'm actually super curious to learn more about Coldhands. My fave is he was one of the Raven's Teeth. But I know there's nothing to support this other than BR in that cave, and Leaf's "they killed him long ago". 

10 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Yeah. I think it is more likely that the eventual disappearance of the spell/magic was what triggered the rotting process (or greatly accelerated it). Whatever spell animates wights must also work as an 'anti-rotting agent' or else those creeps wouldn't be of any use.

Sure. Once the spell is broken, the unnatural reanimated tissue will be 'normal' again and do as all dead tissue must, rot away completely.

10 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Waymar and Will both become wights in high summer. The wildlings-turned-wights Will sees in the villages became wights in high summer. It is just so unnaturally cold in the Prologue because the Others are always there. But it is high summer. And Waymar correctly points out that the wildlings could have died from the cold because it was simply not freezing cold in the last days. He points out that the Wall had been weeping when they had left.

Yup, forgot that.

10 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I guess it wasn't that warm in the nights beyond the Wall, but since trees and plants are growing up there, we have to assume that it is usually not freezing cold in summer nights beyond the Wall, either. Apart from summer snow scenarios, of course.

Yeah.

 

[Free Northman Reborn]

Coldhands is a meat suit worn by Bloodraven.

[Lord Varys]

24 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Yes and no, imo. 

Option 1: Coldhands was, at one point, a full wight (blue "eyes", doesn't talk, doesn't seem to have much sentience, vague memories from when still alive, etc) and "came back" from it somehow.

That is actually the only thing that makes sense to me. Leaf confirms that 'they' (likely other wights, which are threatening him now, perhaps even the Others themselves) killed him. If they did that, then he is dead. And if he is dead and came back the way he did he did so the wight-way.

And there is really no reason to assume you can become a wight of that type and not also be immediately under the control of the Others. At least your body.

Perhaps magic can also break the control of the Others and restore/bring back your personality the way they do with the fire resurrection stuff, but I actually doubt that, considering the point of the wights is not to bring back people, it is to create tools and weapons.

But the spirit of a skinchanger is still out there, and could target his former wight body. In fact, it might be more easier for a skinchanger to claim such a body than take over the body of a living person where he has to take over a living spirit. The wights don't live, not really.

24 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Option 2: Coldhands should have been turned into a full wight, but wasn't. The process was hindered by something, incomplete somehow.

If living people were transformed into wights I could see that. But they are corpses before they become wights. And there is no reason to believe this is a complicated spell involving a long transformation. People just get blue eyes and become zombies.

24 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

We simply do not have enough information at this point to know which w/ certainty. There are a few things we actually know. You brought some up: he most definitely was a black brother. I think, like most maybe, that he cannot be anyone who's gone missing recently - like Will or Royce. The black hands, that simply show that he died. Coldhands himself explains this.

Oh, but that's the standard description of the wights. Coldhands explains that, but it seems that the average wight is wightified at around that time of decay, give or take. It isn't a defining quality of all zombies (nor necessarily of all wights, I assume).

24 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I think it makes sense for the wards at the CotF cave and at the Wall to work similarly or even in the exact same manner. But, again, simply because they will keep out the unnatural undead walking corpses, regardless of said corpses being under someone/something's control or not. In other words, if you're a zombie you'll be kept "out" by the wards. 

Sure, could be that there is only magic against undead in general, with no exceptions. But, you know, magic is magic. I really don't like to presuppose rules like that. If the Children are powerful enough to keep the Others and wights out of their cave, they should also have the power allow all their friends in. I mean, there is a difference between blue-eyed wights and Coldhands. Why can't they make a ward which can differentiate between these two clearly different things?

24 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Yeah, the thing is, pupils have no colour whatsoever because pupils are, basically, holes. Like the diaphragm of a camera. And I find it unlikely that the very deliberate Martin would deliberately use the word pupil without knowing exactly what it meant. But it is possible, I suppose. 

Sure, I know that, I just wrote about pupils as if they were black things out of convenience. It might be that 'pupils' can also refer/include the irises of eyes in English, I don't know, but it irritated me because it later actually confused me. I imagined the Waymar's literal pupils burning blue during the first read, and later also thought the pupils of the corpses had turned blue, not understanding why the guys didn't find that all that odd.

Perhaps the eyes burn in a brighter blue in the night - or when they are actually moving - causing people to also see blue light coming out of the literal pupils.

But this could be a mistake. No idea how much George cared about proper biology when first writing the Prologue.

24 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I brought up skinchangers because you had before. When you suggested that he is a dead skinchanger who took a wight's body?

Yeah, but I don't see how a skinchanger's ability could prevent his transformation into a wight. See above.

24 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Well, we will have to wait and see. I actually think it's more likely that something either prevented full wightification or he was a full wight but whatever spell is at play here was partially broken. 

See above. I think that could work, but then we would have to assume that part of (or the entirety of) the original personality continues to exist beneath the wight creature - which is then freed when the control of the Others is broken. Like as if the wights weren't zombies but rather only possessed people which can be freed/cured.

I don't think that's the case. And then we would have to assume the original personality could be called back from the dead - and that someone wanted to do that. That is a lot to swallow. Especially since he is just some dude hanging out outside the cave. Who would go through so much trouble and then not really care for this guy? 

24 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Possible. I'm actually super curious to learn more about Coldhands. My fave is he was one of the Raven's Teeth. But I know there's nothing to support this other than BR in that cave, and Leaf's "they killed him long ago".

He could be a buddy of Bloodraven's who was when the man ended up in the cave. They could have been attacked by wights, the Children may have been able to save Brynden but not his companions.

If my idea is correct that Bloodraven only realized that he was a skinchanger when he arrived at the Wall - because he met others there (or even if not, he would have hung out with his own kind up there) - then it isn't far-fetched that he would have favored other skinchangers in the Watch, and possibly taking one with him on that last ranging of his.

Once Bloodraven had become the last greenseer, he may have searched out the spirit of his buddy in his second life, helping him to regain body.

That kind of thing will likely be the template for Jon reclaiming his own body - although said body is likely not going to be the body of a wight but rather a mindless drone being revived by Melisandre, Although George could also go the wight way. Coldhands would give Jon a means to come back. 

And who knows? Perhaps a skinchanger with the blood of the dragon ends up looking less like a zombie after he is returned to his zombie body. But I'm not holding my breath.

But I'm pretty sure that Bran is going to want to do something when he realizes that Jon is still alive in Ghost after his death, and then Bloodraven will tell him about Coldhands and what and how it can be done. Depending when that happens, they will either consider Hodor or some other person Jon could take over before, or they will immediately settle on the original if they only find out around the time/after Mel has brought the body back.

The really interesting question is how that could work - I mean, animals aren't skinchangers, and Varamyr assumes (likely correctly) that you lose your ability when you permanently stuck in an animal in your second life. But then - perhaps a greenseer can rip a skinchanger's spirit out of an animal an put it into another creature. They are very powerful, after all.

The idea that Jon himself will be an agent in all that isn't very likely. He is not prepared for a life as a wolf, which means he'll be very quickly more beast than man.

[Rufus Snow]

Some good stuff here, folks, and I'm still wrestling with the implications.

CAN a wight be skinchanged? It's a question worth asking, because we've only been shown actual skinchangers/wargs going into living creatures so far, and when the creature dies the skinchanger is forced out (ie Varamyr's many deaths).

We know that when a skinchanger dies, his/her 'second life' resides in a creature that had been one of their 'rides' - Varamyr wasn't sure which of 'his' wolves he would end up inhabiting, but was pretty convinced it would be one of them... it turned out to be One Eye (iirc). Over time the skinchanger's personality becomes subsumed into the creature's own, and Thistle 'sees' him - after she is wightified - in the wolf, or so he believes, at least. That suggests something resides in the wight as it does in a skinchanger's 'ride'. SO, the question that arises - could Coldhands have been a NW brother who was the 'ride' of a particularly powerful skinchanger whilst still alive, and is now the 'second life' - even in a dead body - of that skinchanger? I'd have thought it would take someone as powerful as BR to be able to totally warg another human, as Bran struggles even against Hodor, and Old Sixskins failed to ride Thistle.... but BR is still alive, so won't be in a 'second life' scenario either.... aaagh, my head started hurting again

OK, so look at it from another angle - what struck me about some of the first wights we met - Otho and Flowers - they had the blue eys and didn't rot (even in 'spirit summer') yet they were totally inert during the daytime. The NW were able to drag them back to Castle Black without any trouble (apart from spooked horses and dogs) - it wasn't until the night time that they re-animated and went for the LC. Now some people have posited in other threads that this shows they had some memory of who they had been and who Mormont was etc, but I wonder if perhaps we ought to be referring back to the prologue instead. The VERY first wight we saw was Waymar Royce after the whole scene of the WWs checking out his (not-magic-enough-) sword and Lordly robes. What I'm suggesting is that the WWs are still bent on finding the LC, and that Otho and Flowers are their new instruments for this quest. Do we take it that the WWs are somehow warging their wights to continue what they were attempting to do in the prologue, or do we accept the idea that wight-Otho and wight-Flowers do really retain some of their own pre-death memories and have had them somehow subverted to that famous hatred of the hot-blooded, living creatures?

I'm really not sure where all this leads (due to Sunday nights leaving my grey cells alcoholically-challenged...) but I hope by writing it out now, inspiration may strike overnight, and of course it may give someone else something to run with in the meantime.

[The Fattest Leech]

9 minutes ago, Rufus Snow said:

Some good stuff here, folks, and I'm still wrestling with the implications.

CAN a wight be skinchanged?

Im laughing my Leechie hiney off at parts of this conversation because it is a straight lml ripoff that is being passed as someone else’s idea.  And from the same who in the past have condemned lml for being crackpot before, which he is most of the time, but to claim it as your own is dishonest. 

 

[Rufus Snow]

2 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Im laughing my Leechie hiney off at parts of this conversation because it is a straight lml ripoff that is being passed as someone else’s idea.  And from the same who in the past have condemned lml for being crackpot before, which he is most of the time, but to claim it as your own is dishonest. 

 

I'm totally unfamiliar with this LmL character -  I think the  tone of your post suggests that is a condition I needn't bother changing

[The Fattest Leech]

1 hour ago, Rufus Snow said:

I'm totally unfamiliar with this LmL character -  I think the  tone of your post suggests that is a condition I needn't bother changing

Lml is as good as any with speculating, and he does have a following. 

I’m on my phone and only scanned this essay, but I believe lml’s Coldhands is a greenseer is this one. If not this one, then for sure another in his site. 

https://lucifermeanslightbringer.com/2016/12/21/the-long-nights-watch/

[Megorova]

2 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Option 2: Coldhands should have been turned into a full wight, but wasn't. The process was hindered by something, incomplete somehow.

Maybe because Coldhands is/was Benjen Stark, and there's something in Starks' blood, that prevents them, from becoming controlled by the Others, even after their death. So they can rise as wights, but they are not like those, that have no Stark blood, they don't become mindless monsters, like all the rest.

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

If living people were transformed into wights I could see that. But they are corpses before they become wights. And there is no reason to believe this is a complicated spell involving a long transformation. People just get blue eyes and become zombies.

It didn't looked like the process of wightification is fast.

There passed several days between death of Small Paul, and him coming after Sam. The place where Small Paul was killed by the Other, was not that far from Craster's keep. Otherwise Sam would have been unable to get there. It was dawn, shortly after Sam killed the Other. So it seems, that Sam and Brothers that were with him, arrived to Craster's on the same day. And it seems, that between Sam's arrival there, and his next chapter passed 9 days. 

ASOS, Sam II: "Kedge Whiteye had taken Bannen’s mangled foot off nine days past, in a gout of pus and blood that made Sam sick, but it was too little, too late.", "Fornio had been delirious for days", "They all needed more food. The men had been grumbling for days.", "Craster had nineteen wives, but none who’d dare interfere once he started up that ladder. No more than the black brothers had two nights past, when he was beating one of the younger girls."

Then after Sam and Gilly left, passed a day or a bit less.

So maybe Small Paul became a wight shortly after he died, and he was aimlessly wandering nearby, for that 10+ days. Or maybe it takes a few days, for the Other's magic to turn a dead body into a wight. Or maybe, after they kill someone, they can turn that person into a wight, any moment they want. For example dead body may be lying dead, for a long time, and when the Others will want to use it, they will make it rise as a wight.

It's just strange, that the first wight, that was brought to Castle Black, seemed to be dead. Was that guy dead, and lying there all that time, and risen only after he was brought on the other side of The Wall? Or was he for some time skulking near The Wall, and then pretended to be dead, dead dead, inactive, and waited until they will bring him thru the gates?

I think, that probably that guy was killed long ago. And all that time his body was lying there, dead dead. And it took a very long time for it to turn into wight, because The Wall was near, so it slowed down spreading of winter-virus inside that dead body. By the time, when Jon and Co has found body of that missing person, several months passed since his disappearance. So it took that long for him to turn into a wight. While the Brothers that died at the Feast, turned into wights faster, because it happened further from The Wall. It took probably less than a day for them to become a walking dead. But Craster's keep was way closer to The Wall, so Small Paul probably turned into wight, maybe a day or so, prior Sam took Gilly and left Craster's keep, about a week after his death. And that wight immediately went after Sam.