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Chancho

Did Edmure save Robb's Life?

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Edmure was torn apart by his nephew and his uncle, because he gave Tywin battle, he didn't want to allow Tywin to go West, he had success at it.

Let's pretend Tywin go West unmolested... How is Robb not fucked? He has less than 6.000 men, Tywin has close to 20.000, after Tywin cross de Golden Tooth, he will join the 4000 remaining from the battle of the camps, somewhere at casterly rock or lannisport Daven is reuniting Stafford's Host, massive advantage goest to the West army fighting at home with way more soldiers. Edmure's Host cannot just follow and get Tywin by the rear, because the Golden Tooth remains there, Strong and guarded... If he gets some goat track by some chance like Robb, he will cross very slowly, so he just won't get there at the right time.

Keep in mind this is Tywin, not Jaime, not Stafford... He also has Kevan, Addam Marbrand, Gregor... So there is good commanders, a great scout and a truly scary and fierce vanguard.

 

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Robb didn't intended to fight Tywin.

He wanted to play a cat and mouse game in the west long enough that Stannis takes Kings Landing.

“We were all horsed,” Ser Brynden said. “The Lannister host was mainly foot. We planned to run Lord Tywin a merry chase up and down the coast, then slip behind him to take up a strong defensive position athwart the gold road, at a place my scouts had found where the ground would have been greatly in our favor. If he had come at us there, he would have paid a grievous price. But if he did not attack, he would have been trapped in the west, a thousand leagues from where he needed to be. All the while we would have lived off his land, instead of him living off ours.” “Lord Stannis was about to fall upon King’s Landing,” Robb said. “He might have rid us of Joffrey, the queen, and the Imp in one red stroke. Then we might have been able to make a peace.”

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You just write he wanted to give battle at the gold road, find a defensive position and what not... At Tywin's Land.

So King's Landing might fell, i'm not questioning that...

How is good for Robb to get to fight Tywin where they are, with the men each army has at the time, Tywin can even get some help from all around to liberate the Westlands.

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A battle in a place set up for that,and It's not clear that they expected battle, just that if Tywin came to battle he would pay a heavy price.

We don't know what the place is, Edmure himself beat Tywin with 2 to 1 disavantage in a fortified position... Robb and Blackfish imposing Tywin a Pyrrmic victory would be good enough, as long as Stannis takes KL.

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16 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

A battle in a place set up for that,and It's not clear that they expected battle, just that if Tywin came to battle he would pay a heavy price.

We don't know what the place is, Edmure himself beat Tywin with 2 to 1 disavantage in a fortified position... Robb and Blackfish imposing Tywin a Pyrrmic victory would be good enough, as long as Stannis takes KL.

True, is a possible scenario, but from an odds point of view, who would you favor, because of the terrain Robb would not being able to run in circles, the more complete maps shows is mountain heavy, there is Marbrand, Brax and other houses a very familiar with the surroudings... If Tywin is heading West he is in no way or form trying to get back to king's landing on time to save the city no more, so he got to focus his attention to Robb.

 

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4 hours ago, Chancho said:

True, is a possible scenario, but from an odds point of view, who would you favor, because of the terrain Robb would not being able to run in circles, the more complete maps shows is mountain heavy, there is Marbrand, Brax and other houses a very familiar with the surroudings... If Tywin is heading West he is in no way or form trying to get back to king's landing on time to save the city no more, so he got to focus his attention to Robb.

 

If KL falls no reason for Tywin to keep fighting. He would have lost, in addion to Jaime and Kevan's twins. Cersei, Tyrion(reason of war), Joffrey, Lancel. No heir left within the immediate family, Joffs off for chopping block, Myrcella a hostage of the man who hates him most, Tommen is nowhere to be found. Ruin of his branch if not the house because of succession crisis in immediate future. 

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2 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Now that I recall, Robb was supposed to die in battle when it was supposed to be 3 books, was he not?

Yes, he was supposed to fight with Joffrey, whom he would maim, but then he would be killed either by Jaime or Tyrion.

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8 hours ago, Chancho said:

How is Robb not fucked?

He is fucked by Jeyne.

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Obviously not since Robb is dead.

Robb's plan was sound, get Tywin to chase him and his army to a place where the Northerners would have the advantage all while subjecting Tywin and his army to some form of guerilla warfare.  In the end, if Tywin is in the West, he cannot save Kings Landing.  Also, if Robb is engaged in battle in the West, then he cannot attend the Red Wedding, furthermore if Tywin is beaten, Walder Frey will not have the guts to kill Robb anyway.  

Remember, Robb is not necessarily at war with Tywin, he wanted Joffrey and Cersie to pay for Ned.  So if KL is taken, Robb has no reason to keep the war with Tywin going. 

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If Tywin don't defeat Robb how will he get Jaime back? He needs something at this point!

Is a 4 to 1 Advantage too and again this is Tywin's and his bannerman territory, just because Robb say he is going to pick a spot doesn't automatic means decisive advantage. 

Robb can run just so far... There is non-friendly castles in every direction he chooses to go, this is not Stafford feeling safe, or Jaime in numerical disavantge and not 3 isolated camps of soldiers getting suprised... It's Tywin, alert and at his home, knowing Robb's whereabouts.

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1 hour ago, Chancho said:

If Tywin don't defeat Robb how will he get Jaime back? He needs something at this point!

 

He won't.

If Stannis takes Kings Landing, then is Stannis who hold Sansa(if she's alive). Jaime becomes nothing to Robb and would lose his head as revenge for Eddard.

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If KL falls no reason for Tywin to keep fighting. He would have lost, in addion to Jaime and Kevan's twins. Cersei, Tyrion(reason of war), Joffrey, Lancel. No heir left within the immediate family, Joffs off for chopping block, Myrcella a hostage of the man who hates him most, Tommen is nowhere to be found. Ruin of his branch if not the house because of succession crisis in immediate future. 

Tommon was relativly safe in Rosby I believe so Tywin would still have an heir left to fight for and making it to Rosby first would be his main concern so he would still be forced to give battle on the golden road with Robbs forces but KL would have been lost so Tommon would be a king without a castle lol. Tywin also would be pissed and probably order the deaths of everyone he came across that wasnt part of his army. 

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Tommon was relativly safe in Rosby I believe so Tywin would still have an heir left to fight for and making it to Rosby first would be his main concern so he would still be forced to give battle on the golden road with Robbs forces but KL would have been lost so Tommon would be a king without a castle lol. Tywin also would be pissed and probably order the deaths of everyone he came across that wasnt part of his army. 

Did Tywin know that Tommen was in Rosby?

Ps When would "Tommon" evolve?:D

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Posted (edited)

When I read that scene it all just seemed too perfect a way to set Edmure up to marry a Frey. Everything's too conveniently falling in place to push Edmure into doing what they need him to do, look at it from Edmure's perspective. Tywin Lannister is returning West to his own lands where has has the home, supply and numbers advantage, you have the opportunity to stop this by using the local terrain to your advantage. So does he try to stop Tywin or just let him pass and hope that his severely disadvantaged king can defeat Tywin, if he had done so and Tywin had defeated Robb then all the blame would have fallen on him. 

Protecting the king and his army comes before letting Stannis take King's Landing, just assuming that Robb would be able to win at huge disadvantage would be a ridiculous gamble and if Robb does want to take that gamble then he should have communicated it to Edmure but there's the thing, was this really the plan and if it was why not send a rider or raven. The plan doesn't make much sense within the time line, the only circumstance that Tywin marches for the West is when he believes that Stannis will be spending many months at Storm's End, as it happened Storm's End fell quickly through magic and Tywin was caught out but Robb and Brynden cannot anticipate this, as far as they know if Tywin comes West then Stannis must be at Storm's End. So were they planning to keep Tywin busy for upwards of a year, while Stannis besieged Storm's End and the Tyrells did... nothing?

If this was the case and the plan has such a large timescale there's literally no reason not to tell Edmure, this is a huge commitment from the Stark/Tully forces and hinges on the co-operation of the armies in the Riverlands. Or is it more likely that Bryden and Robb saw what happened and invented a plan that fit the circumstances in a way that puts the blame squarely on Edmure and gets him to do exactly what they needed him to do, Robb says he NEEDS the Freys and Edmure is the only one that can get them in his eyes, of course they're gonna exploit the circumstances and bullshit him. 

It's all too convenient and I think they took him aside to do it so they could gang up on him with no hope of the Riverlords defending him and fuelling his resolve, none of them questioned protecting Robb's rear, are they all fools? Hindsight is a powerful thing. 

Edited by Trigger Warning

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Posted (edited)

Robb could have had Edmure marry Jeyne and kept the bargain to the Freys. It's never water under the bridge with the Freys, heh. But that wasn't Robb's way to not marry someone he dishonored. 

Edited by Angel Eyes

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Posted (edited)
 


Protecting the king and his army comes before letting Stannis take King's Landing,

No it does not . Robb and Edmure are trying to win a war against the Lannnister's and Stannis taking Kings Landing goes a long way to doing that for them . When Edmure was talking to Cat about attacking Tywin never once did he mention protecting Robb , the only thing he did mention was getting revenge on Tywin for previous defeats . This whole idea that Edmure was protecting Robb seems to created out of thin air by posters who are trying to give Edmure some cover . Robb and Blackfish are smack in the middle of enemy territory and they know full well that there is a chance that Tywin more then likely will coming west at some time so they would definitely have plans to deal with that and Edmure would be trusting that they would be be able to look out for themselves . just getting Tywin west would be a victory for Robb and if he can trap Tywin with Blackfish's plan then that makes it even better but if their trap does not work then they can always retreat out of the Westerlands and regroup in the Riverlands . 

 

 

 there's the thing, was this really the plan and if it was why not send a rider or raven.

I'n sure it just never occurred to them that Edmure would attack Tywin . When they left the Riverlands Edmure had released his bannermen back to their lands so he only had a small force at Riverrun , Edmure calling back his bannermen and pulling his forces out of the Twins and attacking Tywin was just not something they thought he would do which is a mistake on both Robb and Blackfish . I have a hard time believing that Blackfish would just make up this whole story about their plans to trap Tywin  to blackmail Edmure it just seems so out of character for him . If they did not have a plan to deal with Tywin then why were they even in the Westerlands at that point ? 

Edited by Blackfish Tully

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Posted (edited)
 

He won't.

If Stannis takes Kings Landing, then is Stannis who hold Sansa(if she's alive). Jaime becomes nothing to Robb and would lose his head as revenge for Eddard.

Yeah but nobody will chop Jaime's head without him there to command that... Takes time to information get trough and if Robb is on the move he can't receive at all (And Robb is Ned son, he needs to be there... I don't know the term in english exactly but WHO GIVES THE SETENCE SHOULD SWING THE SWORD.)...

Edited by Chancho
Missing english word

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