Heresy 209 Of Ice and of Fire

[IceRaven]

In the third Bran's POV when he is falling and see westeros and some forshadowing, there's  a odd choice of word martin did use that  struck me:

And he looked past the wall, past endless forests cloaked in snow, past the frozen shore and the great blue-white rivers of ice and the dead plains where nothing grew or lived. North and north and north he looked, to the curtain of light at the end of the world, and then beyond that curtain. He looked deep into the heart of winter, and then he cried out, afraid,AND THE HEAT OF HIS TEARS BURNED ON HIS CHEEKS. 

Why should his tears burns his cheeks ? Because he is made of ice,water melt ice, bran just see his future self as the leader of the others, and scream because he is just a child seeing himself as what looks like a monster to him. I think there's no part in the POV who says that he see a threat:

Now you know, the crow whispered as it sat on his shoulder, now you know why you must live. "Why?" Bran said, not understanding, falling, falling. Because winter is coming.

If he is seeing a threat why should he ask why?he asked because he don't understand why he will have to end up like this, and the three eyed crow just remember him is family cry for war ,winter is coming..... and you must lead it.
 

[JNR]

On 6/2/2018 at 10:43 AM, Tucu said:

The World Books gives a different version

That's true, but the World book is not canon, and is also only a reflection of what various maesters think.  

The maesters, as we have constantly seen in canon, are frequently not just wrong but wildly wrong, as in this particular case.  For instance, Maester Luwin thinks the Popsicles never existed (but we know they do).

Also, of course, GRRM dismissed the value of the World book in an interview with Vulture in which he so memorably said:

Quote

"So who knows if it's really true or not!" Martin chuckled

However, the specific time involved is not really the point.  The point is that if Ned thinks the Popsicles haven't been around for thousands of years, it's because Benjen never told him they were currently around.  

If Benjen never told him that, it's because Benjen didn't know... and since he's First Ranger, that means the Watch as a whole also does not know.

So I think it stands to reason that the Popsicles certainly have not, as of the beginning of AGOT, been attacking the free folk for multiple years.  If they had, the Watch would know, and they don't.

 

[Tucu]

1 hour ago, JNR said:

That's true, but the World book is not canon, and is also only a reflection of what various maesters think.  

The maesters, as we have constantly seen in canon, are frequently not just wrong but wildly wrong, as in this particular case.  For instance, Maester Luwin thinks the Popsicles never existed (but we know they do).

Also, of course, GRRM dismissed the value of the World book in an interview with Vulture in which he so memorably said:

However, the specific time involved is not really the point.  The point is that if Ned thinks the Popsicles haven't been around for thousands of years, it's because Benjen never told him they were currently around.  

If Benjen never told him that, it's because Benjen didn't know... and since he's First Ranger, that means the Watch as a whole also does not know.

So I think it stands to reason that the Popsicles certainly have not, as of the beginning of AGOT, been attacking the free folk for multiple years.  If they had, the Watch would know, and they don't.

 

There were a lot of things that the NW didn't now at the beginning of the series. The continued existence of 3 sentient races are some key ones. So the fact that were not aware of WW activity is not proof of much.

[Brad Stark]

I think people misunderstand canon regarding this series.   Everything in canon is POV, and GRRM believes in flawed POV, so we really can't be absolutely certain about anything even if it is canon.  The World book is not canon,  however GRRM or his staff have carefully reviewed it so it is certainly more than, say, all the non canon Star Wars material out there.  Ultimately, I don't think there is a huge difference between the two (e.g. the World Book says this and Game of Thrones says that),  and a bigger difference between sources (Melisandre says this vs Qyburn said that).

[Melifeather]

22 hours ago, IceRaven said:

North and north and north he looked, to the curtain of light at the end of the world,

Not just to you, but to everyone here...how many here believe this line is referring to the Wall (curtain of light) and now many believe its something even further north - like say, past the land of the Thenns?

22 hours ago, IceRaven said:

Why should his tears burns his cheeks ? Because he is made of ice,water melt ice, bran just see his future self as the leader of the others, and scream because he is just a child seeing himself as what looks like a monster to him. I think there's no part in the POV who says that he see a threat:

Now you know, the crow whispered as it sat on his shoulder, now you know why you must live. "Why?" Bran said, not understanding, falling, falling. Because winter is coming.

If he is seeing a threat why should he ask why?he asked because he don't understand why he will have to end up like this, and the three eyed crow just remember him is family cry for war ,winter is coming..... and you must lead it.

I understand how you could be tempted to interpret it this way - and the mummer's version is most certainly setting it up this way as well with similar clothing between Bran and the Nights King - but why would the Nights King have a direwolf named Summer?

Bran's job it to defeat winter - or at least prevent it from becoming permanent. Isn't the threat of winter that it will last a generation or longer?

[Tucu]

24 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Bran's job it to defeat winter - or at least prevent it from becoming permanent. Isn't the threat of winter that it will last a generation or longer?

I like to think that Bran's job is not to defeat winter, but use the powers and tools of ice magic to help some groups to survive the worst of the magical winters.

The Starks are basically very long term preppers

[SirArthur]

44 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

I understand how you could be tempted to interpret it this way - and the mummer's version is most certainly setting it up this way as well with similar clothing between Bran and the Nights King - but why would the Nights King have a direwolf named Summer?

Winter comes when summer dies. 

That said, I do not believe Bran is or becomes a Night's King. Nor a Nightking. Nor a frustrated boy in his ice castle. He is far too curious about the world.

[JNR]

20 hours ago, Tucu said:

There were a lot of things that the NW didn't now at the beginning of the series. The continued existence of 3 sentient races are some key ones. So the fact that were not aware of WW activity is not proof of much.

It sounds like you're conceding that the Popsicles did not spend years attacking the free folk before AGOT, and that the Watch was not aware the Popsicles existed at that time or that they had ever existed for thousands of years.   If so, I agree with you.

[IceRaven]

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

Not just to you, but to everyone here...how many here believe this line is referring to the Wall (curtain of light) and now many believe its something even further north - like say, past the land of the Thenns?

I understand how you could be tempted to interpret it this way - and the mummer's version is most certainly setting it up this way as well with similar clothing between Bran and the Nights King - but why would the Nights King have a direwolf named Summer?

Bran's job it to defeat winter - or at least prevent it from becoming permanent. Isn't the threat of winter that it will last a generation or longer?

I don't see him as the night king, the visions was intended to be a merhaphor, I just pointed that martin do not choose word randomly, and if the cheeks burn must mean something,when you cry usually your eye's can burn, not youre cheeks. Martin never set a character like bad or good, maybe someone a little bit mad, the story is more about balance of the force of nature and magic, and bran is a son of the long summer, and after a long summer it's natural there will be a long winter, brans job maybe is to bring back summer after it. But maybe I'm just seeing want I want to see =)

The part of the curtain of light I don't think is about the wall, becouse he see north and far north, maybe is some border to the heart of always winter.

[Tucu]

34 minutes ago, JNR said:

It sounds like you're conceding that the Popsicles did not spend years attacking the free folk before AGOT, and that the Watch was not aware the Popsicles existed at that time or that they had ever existed for thousands of years.   If so, I agree with you.

I will only go as far as saying that the NW was not aware on any WW activity in the last few hundredth years (as they were not aware of any CoTF or giant activity).

We can't be sure how long the attacks on the wildlings started, but it seems it was a key motivation for Mance's rise as King-beyond-the-Wall and this rise was a multi-year process:

Quote

Mance had spent years assembling this vast plodding host, talking to this clan mother and that magnar, winning one village with sweet words and another with a song and a third with the edge of his sword, making peace between Harma Dogshead and the Lord o' Bones, between the Hornfoots and the Nightrunners, between the walrus men of the Frozen Shore and the cannibal clans of the great ice rivers, hammering a hundred different daggers into one great spear, aimed at the heart of the Seven Kingdoms. He had no crown nor scepter, no robes of silk and velvet, but it was plain to Jon that Mance Rayder was a king in more than name.

Quote

"They grow stronger as the days grow shorter and the nights colder. First they kill you, then they send your dead against you. The giants have not been able to stand against them, nor the Thenns, the ice river clans, the Hornfoots."

"Nor you?"

"Nor me." There was anger in that admission, and bitterness too deep for words. "Raymun Redbeard, Bael the Bard, Gendel and Gorne, the Horned Lord, they all came south to conquer, but I've come with my tail between my legs to hide behind your Wall." He touched the horn again. "If I sound the Horn of Winter, the Wall will fall. Or so the songs would have me believe. There are those among my people who want nothing more . . ."

 

[Brad Stark]

I don't think Bran ends up a Night King simply because I trust the amount of information we have saying he will never walk again,  and I can't see a Night King in a wheelchair. 

[Frey family reunion]

2 hours ago, Tucu said:

I like to think that Bran's job is not to defeat winter, but use the powers and tools of ice magic to help some groups to survive the worst of the magical winters.

The Starks are basically very long term preppers

I kind of see this as the Ragnarok theory of the books.  A lot of old grudges coming to a head at once, ending in an extinction level cataclysm with only a handful of survivors left to start things anew.  In other words, to stay alive to "Dream of Spring", the novel that we will probably never get.

[Matthew.]

3 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Not just to you, but to everyone here...how many here believe this line is referring to the Wall (curtain of light) and now many believe its something even further north - like say, past the land of the Thenns?

I read it as aurora borealis. 

I believe the way the journey is written would suggest the curtain as distinct from the Wall:

Quote

Finally he looked north. He saw the Wall shining like blue crystal, and his bastard brother Jon sleeping alone in a cold bed, his skin growing pale and hard as the memory of all warmth fled from him. And he looked past the Wall, past endless forests cloaked in snow, past the frozen shore and the great blue-white rivers of ice and the dead plains where nothing grew or lived. North and north and north he looked, to the curtain of light at the end of the world, and then beyond that curtain. 

First he looks at the Wall, then "north and north and north" of the Wall to look at the curtain, then beyond the curtain.
 

1 hour ago, JNR said:

It sounds like you're conceding that the Popsicles did not spend years attacking the free folk before AGOT, and that the Watch was not aware the Popsicles existed at that time or that they had ever existed for thousands of years.   If so, I agree with you.

Latecomers to the thread that haven't seen the last several iterations of this argument don't seem to have the context that one of the major points of contention here is about what the Watch knows, and what they supposedly have done (or, more accurately, haven't done) with that knowledge; thus, the inapt comparisons to the CotF.

 

[Matthew.]

2 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

I don't think Bran ends up a Night King simply because I trust the amount of information we have saying he will never walk again,  and I can't see a Night King in a wheelchair. 

I think most "Bran leads the Others" theories are assuming that he'd be managing the hordes through skinchanging/greensight in the safety of his weirwood throne, not that he'll lead in person as a field marshal; though, I suppose, some variations might assume that Bran is transplanting his mind into a walker body.

[Frey family reunion]

On ‎5‎/‎31‎/‎2018 at 1:45 AM, Black Crow said:

Apologies for not responding directly to some of last night's points, but I'd like to make a couple of observations. First Lord Eddard's comment is both ironic and significant.

You listen to too many of Old Nan's stories. The Others are as dead as the children of the forest, gone eight thousand years. Maester Luwin will tell you they never lived at all.

We already know of course that the White Walkers are walking and later learn that the Children of the Forest are not dead, and if they have been around all the time, why not the blue-eyed lot. Neither have been seen below the Wall for a very long time but that's not quite the same thing. The Wildlings know of the Children and according to Osha know of the white shadows as well. The Watch, or at least the older rangers know there's something out there and if they don't articulate it very well that may be because those getting up close and personal didn't come back. Mormont remember is worried that White Walkers have been seen near Eastwatch, its their proximity which concerns him not their being seen for the first time in thousands of years.

Secondly as to dragonsteel, I agree that here we're dealing with the vagaries of oral tradition and literature rather than an historical anomaly. Indeed Sam says as much. A splendid real world example being King Arthur.

In life he appears to have been a Celtic or possibly Romano-Celtic warlord, active in the 6th Century, yet in literature and legend he and his knights - "when there were no knights" - stride around in Gothic plate armour and all the trimmings

But don't we have to ask if these are the same White Walkers that only existed 5 to 8 thousand years ago?  I mean if they are this powerful, where have they been holed up for all this time?  And isn't it interesting that they are so easily identifiable, that Will takes one glance at them and immediately comes to the conclusion that they are the White Walkers of legend, the boogeymen of the north.  Are the folk tales, which Will undoubtedly grew up with, an accurate depiction of the legendary White Walkers, or are these White Walkers created to reflect the folk tales of the legendary White Walkers?

For example  there is a theory that the Ogres of folklore may have been derived from tales told of ancient Hungarians, who plagued various parts of Europe.  The word Ogre perhaps being derived either from Hongrois, or Ugri, or Ugor names given by neighboring people to the tribes which later became Hungary.  Their neighbors being plagued by these tribes would describe them as monstrous and inhuman, and gradually the term Ogre took on a life of its own through folklore.  So today if someone were to see and immediately recognize something as an ogre, it would probably be bald, and green and monstrously large, probably looking like the cartoon Shrek come to life.  But it wouldn't look at all like an ethnic predecessor of the Hungarians, where the term may have originated. 

Interestingly enough, according to Wiki the Hungarian tribes referred to themselves as "Maygar".  I wonder if GRRM's use of the word Magnar may be a deliberate nod.  Perhaps the ancient people of Skagos and Thenn (probable cannibals) were the original inspiration behind the White Walker legends.  Terrible people who were driven into the mainland by the Long Winter and came into contact with the more civilized First Men.  These people and their practices would have certainly seemed monstrous to the First Men, which may in turn have led to folklore and bedtime stories exaggerating their monstrosity.  And then in turn, someone needed to create a magical creation, a golem, if you will, created to inspire fear in the denizens of the North, on both sides of the Wall.  So they crafted their White Walkers to resemble the folklore of the White Walkers as opposed to the actual White Walkers of old.

[SirArthur]

I feel we should clarify a few things, when we talk about the NW's knowledge:

1. Who belongs to the NW ? First JNR, as far as I understand it, means the command of the NW, when he talks about them (as a whole). But that is not all there is to it. Do the following people count ?

1.1 Gared after his encounter. We do not know how he passed the Wall and whom he met. We also do not know what he was doing near Winterfell or if it was an accident. Or if he has always been stationed at Castle Black. Obviously it would be silly to count him as knowledgeable, as the question was more about the general knowledge of the NW.

1.2 Coldhands. Does he count as NW ? Obviously not, but still, if he was NW at some point maybe 8k years are too long.

1.3 Same for Bloodraven. If BR has aquired knowledge about the Others during his time as LC, we can hardly argue the NW didn't know about them for 8k years. 

1.4 The Starks Kings/Lords in Winterfell and their direwolves. This is indeed a very thin line, but if we believe the direwolf to be connected to the Others or the history to be changed, we have to argue in the timeline of centuries, not millenia. 

2. We have to discuss how experienced the command of the NW really is. 

2.1 Maester Aemon and Mallister are out of the question.

2.2 Cotter Pyke's service years are unknown

2.3 LC Mormont has joined the Watch a (short) time before Robert's Rebellion, maybe he has 20 years experience in the Watch and prob. not much field experience.

2.4 Benjen is even more inexperienced, he joined the Watch after Robert's Rebellion and must have aquired the rank of First Ranger very early, if he should have experience as a First Ranger. Else he has not been First Ranger for very long.

2.5 The same for Thorne. He joined after RR. Although Thorne is not exactly "command", he seems to have adopted to northern customs very fast and uses the Others to mock or curse on a regular basis. This is more interesting as he comes from the crownlands and we rarely read that word south of the Neck. 

3. In all the time since RR, we had at least 9 years of straight summer , so all commanders who have been in command for less than 9 years, have no experience during winter. This is particular important when it comes to Benjen and Mormont. I feel this somehow tells us that Benjen most likely never had command during winter.

 

Do they know something ? I feel the current command lacks some winter field experience. Also Gared shows that there is no raising in rank, he even has to follow the command of a green recruit. So unless a ranger like Gared directly tells Mormont, there is something out there (and Mormont believes the old ranger), there is no way Mormont could know. 

So while I agree that Mormont is blank on the issue of WW, I don't think that can be said for 8k years or even for all low rank members of the very feudal Watch. Whether Starks or other northern Lords know something, at some point there certainly was some knowledge, as Old Nan tells us with her stories. 

[Brad Stark]

I keep thinking about A Clash of Kings-Chapter 6.  600 years or so ago, the Watch was awfully interested in the Children.   They had a book on their language,  drawings of weirwood faces, and an account of trade.  Why?  Besides obsidian,  what could the Children offer?  And if the Others weren't a current enemy,  why would they want obsidian?  This also tells us that the Watch and Children weren't enemies at the time. 

We also have a quote by Sam in another chapter I am trying to find.  He says the Others are mentioned in the annuals, but not as often as expected.  I am sure members on this board have a very wide range of expectations,  but it seems Sam expected to find them fairly often but they are around,  just rare.

[LynnS]

A curtain of light:

https://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap131117.html

[Black Crow]

6 hours ago, SirArthur said:

Winter comes when summer dies. 

And that is the heart ans soul of this matter, as indeed is laid out in the Reeds' oath. Summer and Winter must follow in succession. The old king must go into the ground in order that the new may emerge in the spring. What we will find at the end of this is that the seasons have been mucked about because someone has tried to stay alive. Its easy to read it as a King of Winter who was responsible but I feel that GRRM is hinting it was the other way around. Mel and Benero are working to bring about a summer that never ends and venerating that dodgy Azor Ahai character. 

[Tucu]

5 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

I kind of see this as the Ragnarok theory of the books.  A lot of old grudges coming to a head at once, ending in an extinction level cataclysm with only a handful of survivors left to start things anew.  In other words, to stay alive to "Dream of Spring", the novel that we will probably never get.

I would be content with just seeing the devastation in the TWOW, assuming that the book lives to its name unlike ADWD.